Women in Sci-Fi and Fantasy/Game of Thrones

[Irulan]

I love Sci-Fi and Fantasy both. Both genres definitely have their fair share of crap, though.

I don't find George R.R. Martin's treatment of women disturbing, personally. There are several strong female characters, and I think the tone fits the medieval setting. Let's face it, women weren't worth anything in the eyes of men back in those days. To have a medieval setting and have some sort of egalitarian social structure would seem fairly odd to me.

If you're looking for a fantastic author who is also a devoted feminist, look no further than Sherri S. Tepper. Her book "The Gate to Women's Country" is both one of the most disturbing and uplifting fantasy books I've ever read.

Another sci-fi writer with strong female characters is Ann Aguirre.

Werewolf/vampire/undead, etc modern fantasy books are my guilty pleasure. I could go on and on about some of the authors I enjoy in that genre.

Hah, I recall The Gate to Women's Country exactly the same way as you do: It blew my mind. Too bad the author's other works were to me very disappointing.

The "medieval" society presented in Jaqueline Carey's various Kushiel/Namaah trilogies is very egalitarian.

[skhill]

Ursula LeGuin might just be my favorite author ever. Loved her books when I was in grade school, and still do.

Has anyone else read any Octavia Butler? Definitely strong female characters there...

Thanks for this thread, btw. A friend had been encouraging me to read Martin's series, and if I do I know a little more of what to expect.

[Melalvai]

Here's a couple things that are relevant to this topic.

"Ellen Ripley Is Clearly the Best Female Character in Scifi Film, and That's a Problem"

"Women fighters in reasonable armor"

[OakLeaf]

Oh yes, I can't imagine why I forgot about Octavia Butler. She was wonderful.

The book I'm reading right now and really, really loving is Luminarium by Alex Shakar, which is sort of science-fiction-ish. Sort of - present day, medical technology that's not very much of a stretch. The central characters are all male, so it really doesn't belong in this thread, but I don't see anything wrong with the way he presents the female characters and the relationships between the sexes, and as long as we're on the genre ...

[tangentgirl]

I had to scroll past some of this quickly, because I haven't read DwD yet, but, on George RR Martin and the Ice & Fire books...

I like his female characters. A lot. SPOILERS HERE

Arya is my HERO. If I ever had a daughter, that name would be a strong contender, along with Lyra (Golden Compass). And maybe Keala (Kennely, the badass surfer chick in the real world). But I digress. Talk about a mean little survivor.

Danerys? Getting rid of her abusive brother? Becoming this legendary queen? Awesome.

Cersei - so ridiculous and evil and a terrible leader, but Martin really explains how she is who she is in part because she was marginalized.

Brienne - Brave, both in battle and out. She is who she is despite every single thing being against her.

I haven't read the rape/rough sex scene described at the beginning of this thread, so it's hard to comment on it. However, horrible things happen to lots of characters throughout these books. It's not like Martin is focusing on objectifying women in particular. If he had been, Sansa would be pregnant with Tyrrian's second kid by now, cause Tyrrian wouldn't have had any qualms about *ing his hot 13-year-old bride.

***
Other FSF female awesomeness...

+1 on Octavia Butler. And Terry Pratchett and Phillp Pullman.

Margaret Atwood. Her futures scare the bejezzus outta me.

Vernor Vinge's Rainbow's End has a wonderful main female character. Then again, I'm biased, I love that book to pieces. His future is actually gonna happen.

Connie Willis! Hooray for Connie Willis and her time-traveling heroes, female and male. I wish her futures would happen. I'd like to be a historian.

Anyone read the Soulless series by Gail Carriger? Steampunk vampire werewolf hilarity, with a wonderful woman at the lead.

I'm surprised we haven't gotten a mention of Marion Zimmer Bradley here and The Mists of Avalon, her re-imagined Camelot from the women's point of view. I found those characters frustrating, but the idea of turning The Once and Future King (which I also love) on its ear is pretty cool.

Finally, this is television, but Battlestar Galactica and Kara Thrace. The new Starbuck kicked so much @$$ that the old Starbuck got jealous and threw an internet hissy fit. Hooray for new Starbuck!

Ok, time for me to go play World of Warcraft. Peace out.

[Irulan]

After reading that blog entry on the female scorecard of GOT, I'll never be able to look at it the way you do.

MZB should get a passing mention. Mists of Avalon was a terrific, ground breaking book. Too bad all the follow ups (before and after) plus her other semi-historical/fantasy fiction (Fall of Atlantis etc ) was total crap. The Darkover series, her contribution to the sci-fi world was really hit and miss in the quality of the fiction; mostly hit but again, I'm surprised an editor let some of that stuff through.

Diana Paxson anyone? Again, a little hit or miss.

Now getting off the female track, anyone into world building/alternate history? I think Kim Stanley Robinson is a genius.

For sheer entertainment SM Stirling's Nantucket/Change books are a lot of fun. Some of them are like a train wreck ( so bad you should stay away) but the entertainment values, assuming you set your plausibility meter to "zero" and just go along for the ride, are unparalleled. And he does better women characters than a lot of authors in the field. At times they are all so silly it doesn't matter. The Change series has been really entertaining as it's set in my little corner of the world, and I have physically been to many of the locations referenced in the books.

[tangentgirl]

+100 on KSR.

Irulan, I've always wanted to ask, is your username from the Dune books?

[zoom-zoom]

Has no one mentioned the ladies of Firefly/Serenity or Dana Scully (I still miss The X-Files after all these years and Firefly never got a fighting chance, thanks to FOX's antics). I'm not a huge sci-fi junkie, but I always loved these characters/actresses and the series' they were on.

[ivorygorgon]

I started reading the George RR Martin series, oh jeez, well over 10 years ago. I gave up after the second book, I think. I don't quite remember why, I just remember the third book coming out and I wasn't interested in picking it up. After reading the blog listed above (which I found really interesting and funny) I can see why I wasn't interested in reading further. I did recently download the sample of the first book onto my Kindle, because I have been seeing so much talk of this series lately, and I wondered why. So I am going to read the sample and see if it sparks my memory.

Someone above mentioned that Robert Jordan portrayed women well in The Wheel of Time Series, but I have to disagree. I think he tried to portray the women as strong, but I don't think he has pulled it off. He has receive a TON of criticism about his portrayal of women and the Aes Sedai in particular. I should mention that nonetheless I have been reading The Wheel of Time since 1991 and will see it through to the end - I think there is only one more book to go. I remember being worried in the late 90's that RJ wouldn't live to see the series through, and I was right. But Brandon Sanderson is doing a heck of job with the remainder of the series.

Anyone remember The Crystal Singer by Anne McCaffrey? I loved that book. Also, back in the day I read everything Piers Anthony. I recently re-read a few of the Xanth books, just for a giggle.

Overall, I tend to like epic fiction. I love huge tomes and well developed worlds that I can get into.

[skhill]

Now getting off the female track, anyone into world building/alternate history? I think Kim Stanley Robinson is a genius.

For sheer entertainment SM Stirling's Nantucket/Change books are a lot of fun. Some of them are like a train wreck ( so bad you should stay away) but the entertainment values, assuming you set your plausibility meter to "zero" and just go along for the ride, are unparalleled.

I've been on a Kim Stanley Robinson kick lately-- just read the Mars books straight through. But his fascination with breast feeding in the climate-change series was creepy...

SM Stirling is great airport reading. His books remind me of the great beer commercial: tastes great, less filling!

[Eden]

Cool thread - I haven't read or seen the series that got this started, but I have read some stuff that has good strong women as lead characters...

Kristen Britian's Green Rider series is full of strong women (not to mention they are good old fashioned page turners). It is set in a medieval type society, but gender roles are definitely not medieval.

I love Sherri Tepper - who couldn't be called anything but a feminist... most of her books center around either a strong female lead character or upside down gender roles.

Elizabeth Moons trilogy about Paksenarrion was quite good and she certainly qualifies as a strong woman.

and just for fun.... Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastard series, while not particularly being about women or featuring them (but certainly the ones who appear are neither weak nor taken advantage of...), just because it is one of the most captivating pieces of fiction that I have read in a long, long time. He's got a real way with words and images.

I have to admit I do love Tolkein - though really just the Lord of the Rings... most of his other work I find rather like reading a history book - dry and dull.... Maybe it's just because I really started there - I think I was only in 5th grade the first time I read them, but every once in a while I still feel like pulling them out again.

I'll even admit to liking Anne McCaffrey - though I think her books generally read like SF romance novels.... guilty pleasure I guess... but her characters are always so likable, even the prickly ones.

[Irulan]

+100 on KSR.

Irulan, I've always wanted to ask, is your username from the Dune books?

all these years and are you the first one to figure that out?

[tangentgirl]

all these years and are you the first one to figure that out?

Yay!

[tangentgirl]

Ok, I had more to say than yay...

This is a great topic, Irulan. Even though I don't particularly agree with the blog post that kicked it off, the portrayal of women in SF and fantasy books (and movies and tv) is near and dear to my heart.

This is especially true of science fiction. I would like to think that women have it better in the future, and that human beings - or at least human society - will continue to evolve past the ol' rape'n'pillage mentality. When I read sci-fi, I get much more offended when the women are objectified, than when I read something that's set in the past or in a past-like world. It's a little strange, since I gravitate towards the dystopian, which shouldn't be ideal, but whatever.

Take Robert Heinlein. Great writer, but, dangit, sometimes I'd like to resurrect him from the grave just to kick him in the nards. He's got all this stuff where he's living out his old man playboy fantasies in his books, and it gets pretty transparent. I can't help but like his books, but I do tend to read them saying, "Really, Robert? Really?"

And I recently read the first book of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. On the flip side, that made me sad because there were basically no women in it at all. All these super smart people, and the women are invisible.

[Irulan]

Thanks gals for some ideas for new authors to search out.

Anyone else on Goodreads? I find it's a great way to keep track of what I'm reading, get recs from friedns with similar tastes, and discover totally new stuff.

As for "guilty pleasure" lol that probably needs its own thread.

@tangentgirl re Heinlien... so true. One has to remember that the authors of his area were really groundbreaking, even if it seems so dated now.