growing up.. rambling

[OakLeaf]

I hope that equal vehemence is reserved for parents of young children, who don't exercise at all - who eat a poor diet - who refuse mental health assistance when needed - or who otherwise endanger their ability to support their family. Is pleasure more immoral than laziness?

[Crankin]

I'll second that one, Oakleaf.
Mr. Bloom, I bet you saw the interview with Mary kay Letourneau on the Today Show this morning. Her responses were frightening. I am embarrassed to say she went to the School of Education at ASU, where I went.

[Irulan]

Sorry I don't know you - are you a professional skydriver? Or Bungee Jumper? or Motocross rider? I did say high risk - I don't consider bicycling a HIGH risk sport...

that said if you have a husband and small children then yes I think it foolish you risk your life for pleasure... just my opinion.

edited to add: If you engage in sports such as free riding--- mountain biking off cliff faces, then I would consider that high risk.

Well, I resemble that remark: my DH is a class 5whitewater boater, it's his passion. And you know what? The decisions we make that are right for our family are just that: right for our family. It's totally inappropriate for you to make judgments like that... I mean, mind your own business if it's not affecting you personally. I'm sure you do things with your family that I might not approve of, or even be offended by, but I keep my opinions and judging to myself.

My son is also a whitewater boater. I let my children do high risk activities too!

Suggested reading:
Forget Me Not by Jennifer Lowe-Anker, memoir by the widow of Alex Lowe, one of the world's foremost mountaineers who was killed in a climbing accident.

http://www.amazon.com/Forget-Me-Not-...6259675&sr=8-1

[Irulan]

So what.... if someone doesn't want to conform to another person's idea of what it means to be "grown up"... You don't have to like everyone - let them be little boys/girls forever if they want to be.

It's only a problem if you are in a relationship with them and have unrealistic expectations of wanting them to change and they don't want to.

[tangentgirl]

I don't know. Sounds like that article is reaching, trying to drum up a story that was only really a story 50 years ago.

[PamNY]

Scumbags aren't limited to the carefree, childless types.... lots appear to be good solid family men from the outside....

Yes, indeed. Quite a few. And women, too, for that matter. Personally, I like an honest commitment-phobe more than a philandering-but-married Little League coach.

I don't see what's wrong with adults who live for themselves (as someone put it earlier). Most of my friends are single and focus on their own passions and interests -- and why not?

I wonder if time spent on art/museums/theater/concerts would seem immature to the writer of the article lph mentioned? There's really no difference in those activities and sports -- except that, I guess, they are more conventional, especially as one gets older.

[shootingstar]

This Canadian travelogue writer did write about the extreme sports and the dark side (meaning risks).

She interviews people with children, who's spouses died in the big quest...mountaineering..etc.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...sts_Its_Shadow

But I wonder how much more riskier they are compared to doing a long bike touring ride for months solo on some busy highways.

[emily_in_nc]

I think, generally, if you lead a lifestyle that is any little bit non-conventional, many people think you are immature or just plain weird. I may have the house in a nice suburb, etc., but I did it all in a somewhat unconventional way. I got married after knowing my DH for 6 months, I've had lots of jobs, and we moved across the country, giving up 2 good jobs and a beautiful house because we wanted our kids to have a certain lifestyle/cultural values. Did people have trouble with this? Oh yeah. And DH being a house husband while I worked? Not too common in 1982/3.

Yes, that's true, and it cuts across all age lines, really. My brother is in his mid 40s, a surfer, artist, and comic store owner. He's intelligent, funny as h-e-l-l, and culturally aware. He's also single (one early marriage) with no kids. He would LOVE to fall in love and be in a committed relationship again, but women he meets in their 30s and 40s find him too unconventional and too poor. I'm sure some would call him immature simply because of the life he lives and because he dresses like a surfer/skater instead of a middle-aged man. They want more conventional men who drive nicer cars and bring home steadier paychecks. And he has a hard time relating intellectually to the women in their 20s who do find him and his alternative lifestyle exciting. I worry that he'll never find love again because of the disconnect between his lifestyle and age. It's too bad because he's no selfish Peter Pan. He surfs for the love of it and the exilaration it brings him, not to have a "cut" body. I know he's lonely, though.

And I too know that people think my DH and I are weird, especially because we live in the conservative/traditional southeast. We don't have children. He's a house-husband (after getting laid off in the telecom bust), I support him. He volunteers for Habitat and takes care of our dog, does the shopping, etc. We moved from our nice house in the country to a small apartment and sold one of our two cars, so my DH gets around by foot, bike, and bus. I drive as little as possible, and we walk or take the bus places most people of our ages and income would only drive. We've moved a lot, including two moves out of and back to NC, leaving and coming back to the same jobs! And now we're trumping all our previous adventures by buying a condo in Belize.

But you know, the older I get, the more I relish being different! People can think what they want to, but I love not living a "typical" upper-middle class existence in the suburbs, keeping up a lawn, and spending the weekends maintaining the yard. Been there, done that, don't miss it a bit. I'd much rather be out riding my bike or walking somewhere. I love not feeling any compunction to "keep up with the Joneses", as I did in my 20s and 30s. If there's one really good thing about aging, it's just this. Being comfortable in one's own skin and finally figuring out who you are and what matters to you. Some people seem to figure that out relatively young; some of us take a bit longer. But when you do hit upon it and realize "this is the life I was meant to live; this is me", it feels really, really good.

Sorry for the ramble!

[emily_in_nc]

I hope that equal vehemence is reserved for parents of young children, who don't exercise at all - who eat a poor diet - who refuse mental health assistance when needed - or who otherwise endanger their ability to support their family. Is pleasure more immoral than laziness?

Where's that little clapping smiley when you need him!

CLAP-CLAP-CLAP!!!!

[shootingstar]

I think someone else said earlier...maturity is simply how live well, without going out of one's way to hurt someone else nor self. Also simply take simple accountability for one's actions and not expect everyone is going to financially bail you out, etc. yaddydayaddyda

Accidents in life happen.

And having harmonious relationships with people who matter most in one's life.

Who cares about fashion, activities, what a house/car/bike ..looks like.
Emily nc: It wouldn't be surprising that alot of women that he meets, are judging him by his lifestyle and wallet size. I hate to sound so brutal: But there are ALOT of women who still want a guy loaded with money and to look like "stable" provider. I recall a stupid discussion thread elsewhere about whether or not a woman should pay half for restaurant meal with her date/bf. Why wouldn't a woman do this nowadays if she was working to earn money and decided already together on the restaurant??

[smilingcat]

One of many reasons why I love reading threads here. Thought provoking.

The idea of "if you don't create victims" then its your biz seems like a good basis of determining about acting ones age/maturity...

Unfortunately, this too suffers from moral judgment. If one has young children and loves to base jump, most will agree that he is being immature and not acting his age. That may be true. So what if the same man were to golf. It too carries risk. Bing Crosby died of heart attack while playing round of golf. Driving a car does carry risks. More die from cars than from air-plane crash. both in numbers and miles per person driven. But social and moral judgment is that golf and driving a car is considered acceptable. Granted the rate of death is far lower than high altitude mountaineering or base jumping.

And would your perception change if the man was wealthy enough so that the children can be well taken care of after the man's untimely death. Conversely, if the man were playing golf and dies but leaves nothing for his children and children ends up in abject poverty. Is this still acceptable?

I think the original post by LPH and the writer of the article that got this whole thing started is that the writer was voicing her own opinion of social acceptability and the sliding scale of acceptability based on age.

I have no answer to moral question. It all boils down to one's perception of acceptability one's belief in what constitute a right or wrong e.g. Roe vs Wade, Brown vs Board of Education, Loving vs state of Va (interracial marriage was banned in VA till this case but it wasn't till the 60's that the law was taken off the book). or 19th amendment giving us the right to vote. Many women were brutally beaten for this right 100 years ago. Men didn't think it was morally right for women to vote.

One thing I will say is this: moral judgment based on person's age really needs to be thrown out in trash.

[lph]

This started an interesting discussion, cool

Originally I reacted to two things in the article: first of all the implication that being deeply involved in various sports was somehow immature and irresponsible in itself, without taking into consideration any other aspects of that persons life. Like many of you, I feel that it's bizarre to assign certain activities to the young and others to the "old". (See, even I don't want to use the word old). I do feel that there is a moral issue when it comes to extremely high-risk activities and families, but that is hardly a large problem and one solved best by each family, and bringing in skiing and rock climbing into that kind of discussion implies that family life should be completely risk-free. What is important is the balance of time you spend on different things, whether it's at the office or on the ski slopes or with your family.

But I also don't like the idea that being grown-up - i.e. not young - is somehow not desirable. I do think that there is a trend where everybody wants to be young practically until they're carted into a home, and being grown-up or an adult is just too uncool to be desirable. But that really is an idea that needs to be defused imo. Being an adult is no longer about the facade stuff, but still is about being a real, responsible, mature human being, and lord knows the world needs more of those. I think maybe we're just buying into the whole "young is good"-thing by talking about how someone acts young or looks young or whatever, when what we mean is that that person is competitive or alert or energetic, does activities she loves, and looks fit or happy. There is a whole lot to be said for being an adult. Take Adult Back!

Besides. The terror of being "boring" (I have an advantage here being the only one who's read the article except maybe DoW ) is just stupid. Life is boring sometimes. But to get what you want, you have to do the boring stuff too. And maybe what looks like boring or staid is fulfilling too, in a smaller-scale and more introvert way.

Anyway. My main point was really that being an adult is or should be a good and desirable thing that implies maturity and responsibility to yourself and the people you care about and who care about you, and should have very little to do with anything else.

PS. Some nuances may be lost in translation here, the Norwegian word translates most directly to "grown-up" IMO. It's used to denote someone fully grown, definitely not a teenager, and sometimes - often - a euphemism for middle-aged (!) Such is the terror of not being young...

[lph]

For me, it's all about living honestly. If you're a commitment phobe, then don't get married under the pretense that you are committed. If you really don't want to parent, then don't have children. If you want to live for yourself, then don't make anybody else dependent on your income, your time or your focus. If you don't want to work hard enough to make decent money, then fine, but don't mooch off of anybody else.

Indysteel - well said!

[OakLeaf]

PS. Some nuances may be lost in translation here, the Norwegian word translates most directly to "grown-up" IMO. It's used to denote someone fully grown, definitely not a teenager, and sometimes - often - a euphemism for middle-aged (!) Such is the terror of not being young...

Kind of like the way Americans use the word "mature" to mean post-menopausal, or whatever the male equivalent is.

[lph]

oh - and I wanted to add - thank you! everybody for pitching in and making this such an interesting discussion. This is really the only place I can discuss semi-philosphical/moral issues with more than just one or two people at a time, and part of what I really appreciate about this forum.