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  1. #31
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    Aug 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catriona View Post
    Would it be all that much safer if a police officer drove his car behind a peleton with his siren blaring & lights flashing and followed them till they stopped?
    Yes. Do you think the police set up road blocks for cars who are just speeding 5 mph over the limit on the highway? Or does it take a more serious offense such as running from the scene of a crime?
    Frends know gud humors when dey is hear it. ~ Da Crockydiles of ZZE.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    273
    Quote Originally Posted by denny View Post
    Hey Zen- they come through at 6:15PM. It's not dark yet. However, assuming they are riding single file or double file then speed would be the factor and yes, slow down is the correct answer. I still believe that the maneuver is an over reaction and is rarely used by state and local PD unless there is an immediate danger to public. This does not rise to such a level as it is a 5 mile strip with a fairly low presence of vehichles and pedestrians pretty much stick to the designated areas.
    Originally you said:

    even if the riders were in violation of riding more than 2 abreast after sunset.
    Which makes it sound like they're riding after sunset.

    The problem is this has happened twice, which seems to show a disregard on the part of the riders in this group for warnings already given.

    If they're speeding, they're speeding, they need to stop doing that. If they're breaking other rules, they need to stop doing that as well.

    Whatever the rules are they need to comply with them. There's no excuse for drag racing by cars on isolated stretches of road, even if there isn't "usually" much traffic there. Same rules apply to bikes. Using the same tactics to stop bikes that are used to stop cars isn't a fault on the part of the police. If you're going to fast to stop, whether in a car or on a bike, you were already in the wrong. There IS an immediate danger to the public when you've got a peloton zipping down a public access road like this.

    The point is its not a race track, it's a public road, and there are plenty of reasons people might be walking along a well-lit, public road, with kids and dogs in tow, or kids might be walking along there. It's an issue of public safety. It would appear this has been happening on a regular basis, hence the concern and intervention of the local gendarmerie. In order for the cops to be there on two occasions in the right place at the right time, there must be a pattern of disobeying the rules to which they are responding.

    Nobody wants anyone to get hurt. But I don't see how much choice the cops had. At the very least, the first attempt to stop the peloton should have been considered a warning, and yet the group repeats the same offense again?
    By charity, goodness, restraint, and self-control men and woman alike can store up a well-hidden treasure -- a treasure which cannot be given to others and which robbers cannot steal. A wise person should do good. That is the treasure that cannot be lost.
    - Khuddhaka Patha

    The word of God comes down to man as rain to soil, and the result is mud, not clear water
    - The Sufi Junayd



  3. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    2,841
    We don't know how often the police have complained to the bike group or not. Or other bike groups if there's multiple bike groups that are doing this...

    The faq on the stone mountain site says that you can ride a bike if you do it single file on the road.... not even the 2 abreast that seems to be the Georgia standard.

    I know around here, the police routinely step out in front of your car and wave you over if you're violating HOV restrictions, don't have your personal property tax sticker, or you're driving in a shoulder to get to an exit faster in traffic.

    None of those are terrible traffic violations that require a person to physically step in front of your car, but cars stop without crashing, and deal.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Honolulu, HI
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    510
    Quote Originally Posted by Irulan View Post
    you can't always pass in the left lane. Some roads are blind, or slow or there's too much on coming traffic. Or, maybe you are like my mom, 80 years old and terrified to pass a group of cyclists on a curvy road....
    Yes, but the context of my post was cyclists traveling at the same speed as cars. Why would your 80 yo mom need to pass the cyclists in that case?

    Also, left lane implies two lanes going in the same direction. If your mom is afraid to drive he left lane-that is going the same direction as the right lane-perhaps your mom shouldn't be on the road at all.

  5. #35
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    Sep 2007
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    Honolulu, HI
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    510
    Quote Originally Posted by PscyclePath View Post
    There's no law in the country that allows a group, or peloton of cyclists to behave like a swarm of bees. Unless you've got a permit that allows for road closure and racing, then everyone on the ride must comply with Georgia traffic law... which means riding no more than two abreast, riding as far to the right of the traffic lane as is practicable...

    How about obeying the law instead of playing like Smokey and the Bandit?
    Whoa, buddy. Did you read your link? I did and the law says:

    "Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, except when turning left or avoiding hazards to safe cycling, when the lane is too narrow to share safely with a motor vehicle, when traveling at the same speed as traffic,

    If the bikes were traveling with traffic, they can take the lane. Now, they shouldn't have been riding more than two abreast and I'm certainly skeptical that they were.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Arlington, VA
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    1,993
    Based on the facts presented, it appears that the cyclists were not following the rules and knew it.

    The officer was doing his/her job.

    To be honest, I would get nervous coming upon a big group of cyclists riding fast on a curvy park road, even if there was a passing lane. I'm 46 years old and have a good driving record.

    We all have a civic duty to obey the rules of the road, regardless of our mode of transportation.

  7. #37
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    Nov 2002
    Location
    the dry side
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    4,365
    Quote Originally Posted by ilima View Post
    Yes, but the context of my post was cyclists traveling at the same speed as cars. Why would your 80 yo mom need to pass the cyclists in that case?

    Also, left lane implies two lanes going in the same direction. If your mom is afraid to drive he left lane-that is going the same direction as the right lane-perhaps your mom shouldn't be on the road at all.
    I guess we are going to get all nitpicky here... somewhere I missed that there were two parallel lanes, and I was picking up the concept of a group of bikers blocking/filling a single lane on a two lane road, in general. Stupid me I guess.

  8. #38
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    Apr 2009
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    273
    Quote Originally Posted by Catriona View Post
    We don't know how often the police have complained to the bike group or not. Or other bike groups if there's multiple bike groups that are doing this...
    I'm pretty sure the first time they stopped the peloton ought to have counted as a warning AND a complaint.

    Also, a peloton is fairly anonymous - how would you "complain to the group" if you have no idea of what the group is? I'm wondering whether there have been complaints by non-cycling citizens, possibly newspaper articles . . . in any case, having been stopped once, this group apparently chose to ignore the warning and continue the objectionable behavior.

    I like riding my bike on the kind of roads described here, and frankly a high-speed peloton overtaking me and passing me would scare the living daylights out of me, probably would force me off the road if I could get there without crashing . . .
    By charity, goodness, restraint, and self-control men and woman alike can store up a well-hidden treasure -- a treasure which cannot be given to others and which robbers cannot steal. A wise person should do good. That is the treasure that cannot be lost.
    - Khuddhaka Patha

    The word of God comes down to man as rain to soil, and the result is mud, not clear water
    - The Sufi Junayd



  9. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    550
    I'm nervous when groups that large pass me on closed roads. Most of the riders in big groups that have passed me on rides have not been very considerate, honestly. I was on Tour for Woodside on a closed road and a huge group of riders knocked another cyclist who was going up hill more slowly then they were, into the bushes. I stopped to help, they kept racing. I'm not saying that this group is like that, but I have seen the absolute disdain that some elite cyclists have for anyone who is not of their caliber, that I could see how such a group could be considered a threat to public safety.
    Christine
    Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

    Cycle! It's Good for the Wattle; it's good for the can!

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    DE
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    1,209
    Well we are only getting one side of the story with out the benefit of the laws and or rules in effect in the referenced park.

    Sounds to me like it's time for the leader of the peloton and perhaps one eloquent accomplice to sit down for a meeting with the police chief and work out what will, and what will not be tolerated, and to educate the police on the dangers of the methods used to try to stop them. It would be good to get a crash course on the law in that jurisdiction, and may do well to consult a bicycling attorney.

    There was a recent blog entry "When the Cop Says Stop" by Bob Mionske posted at Bicycling.com on this very subject, this time in Ohio. It was a peloton of two, but similar situation. It is very long, but just goes to show what happens when things escalate:

    http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadright...-disobey-cops/

    Now there is a equally interesting response in a "A “Cop” Responds" by Mark Wheeler, a Florida cyclist, and cop.

    http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadright...-cop-responds/

    The lesson is to pick your battles; there is a very fine line between being right, and being dead right.

    Let us know how this turns out.

  11. #41
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    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,841
    The FAQ for stone mountain park says that biking is allowed and bikes must ride single file on the road. And that there is a bike lane on one side of the mountain.

    I only brought up whether or not there were complaints before in response to people asking was it really necessary for the police officers to step out into the road or pull the car out to stop the peleton... If there have been multiple complaints before to the bike groups whether it's when they're pulling into the park or out of it by the rangers (I have no idea how this park looks), or comments yelled at them... And if these complaints have been steadily ignored, I can see why a police officer would think that stepping out into the middle of the road is reasonable...

    And if nothing else, the fact that there were crashes means that the peleton really isn't riding in a controlled fashion that they can respond to obstacles or pedestrians.

    Btw, thanks for teaching me the word peleton, which I find very cool.
    Last edited by Cataboo; 05-05-2009 at 04:26 PM.

  12. #42
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    Sep 2007
    Location
    Honolulu, HI
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    510
    Quote Originally Posted by Irulan View Post
    I guess we are going to get all nitpicky here... somewhere I missed that there were two parallel lanes, and I was picking up the concept of a group of bikers blocking/filling a single lane on a two lane road, in general. Stupid me I guess.
    Not stupid. I've actually been to Stone Mountain. Unless there's a big laser light show thingy going on auto traffic is pretty light--at least it was 10+ years ago when I was last there.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
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    2,609
    When we ride in the park, we're typically two across, but to be honest, where there are two lanes in each direction, we'll take the whole lane. In that situation, I feel it's safer for the cars to move to the outside (same direction) lane to pass us, than for them to try to move over slightly and pass us with another car next to them. (Car in outer lane, car sharing inner lane with us.) The traffic is typically very light, especially later in the day. It's a closed loop - there is no through traffic, and all cars have to pay to enter the park - bicycles and peds are free.

    The group in question probably was going too fast. But just like a pedestrian shouldn't step out into a line of fast-moving cars, the policeman shouldn't have done the same. Yes, an animal could have done the same, and there wouldn't be an issue - that's an accident. This was intentional.
    For 3 days, I get to part of a thousand other journeys.

  14. #44
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    Apr 2009
    Posts
    273
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedal Wench View Post
    When we ride in the park, we're typically two across, but to be honest, where there are two lanes in each direction, we'll take the whole lane.
    Hmmm, except . . . apparently the rule is that bikes are to ride single file.

    From the Stone Mountain FAQ:

    http://www.stonemountainpark.com/faq/

    Bicycles can be ridden along the roadways inside the Park. There is a dedicated bicycle lane on Robert E. Lee Blvd., on the back side of the mountain. Bikers must ride single file and follow all traffic laws.
    You're not supposed to be riding two abreast, let alone spreading out and taking the whole lane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedal Wench View Post
    The group in question probably was going too fast. But just like a pedestrian shouldn't step out into a line of fast-moving cars, the policeman shouldn't have done the same. Yes, an animal could have done the same, and there wouldn't be an issue - that's an accident. This was intentional.
    The flouting of park rules is also obviously intentional, and not only intentional, but repeated. I don't see that the officer had much choice in the matter.
    By charity, goodness, restraint, and self-control men and woman alike can store up a well-hidden treasure -- a treasure which cannot be given to others and which robbers cannot steal. A wise person should do good. That is the treasure that cannot be lost.
    - Khuddhaka Patha

    The word of God comes down to man as rain to soil, and the result is mud, not clear water
    - The Sufi Junayd



  15. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    WA State
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    4,364
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenSojourner View Post
    The flouting of park rules is also obviously intentional, and not only intentional, but repeated. I don't see that the officer had much choice in the matter.
    I agree with Sadie Kate - even if they were intentionally flouting the rules there is such a thing as responding with unnecessary force... I would like to think the officer didn't know what the consequences of stepping out in front of the cyclists would be, rather than the officer intentionally endangering the cyclists for a minor traffic infraction. It would have been more appropriate to wave them off of the road to ticket/warn them or used lights etc in a squad car to pull them over as they would with any other traffic stop. (I find it hard to believe that officers risk their lives by stepping out in front of cars!)

    On another matter - what is the point of requiring cyclists to ride single file if they are traveling the speed limit.... the whole reason for making them do so is to make them easier to pass. If they are traveling the speed limit no one should be passing.....
    "Sharing the road means getting along, not getting ahead" - 1994 Washington State Driver's Guide

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