OT - Politics, Religion... the taboos

[Trek420]

spazzdog "there has got to be a way to prevent "inappropriate" locations. I mean, a funeral service is no place for a bunch of yelling, screaming protestors - whatever their platform."

Since eating shellfish is also an "abomination" they chould picket, yell and scream in front of Red Lobster when it's 30 shrimp for 10 bucks night, or at Arts Crab Shack.

Heading out the door for work so I don't have time to mull over my thoughts but I'm against the war, against all wars or think war should be the very very last resort but I sooooooooo support our troups.

And to add this to the grief of the families is so wrong.

Trek those who forget the past are bound to repeat it 420

[trayc]

I haven't read all of the other posts yet so this comment might have already been made. As I am not catholic I don't know this information but isn't it true that boys make up most of the altar boys or other areas in church? If so, then that is the only reason that the priests abused boys. Pedophilia is a crime of opportunity and manipulation so it stands to reason that it was boys not girls abused because the priests had more of an opportunity with boys and not girls. It doesn't make the preists gay because they chose boys to prey on, they just had more of an opportunity to prey on these boys.

[Donna E Mobile]

[QUOTE=Justina] My theory on the catholic pedophiles is that since their religious doctrine denies them an outlet for their normal human sexuality that they kinda just snap and um... Well... kids are available, easy to intimidate or how ever they manipulate them????

I think some become priests hoping to be cured, others because the children they want will be available, others, as you describe, give in to temptation while living a life that is unnatural for them. I doubt there is a single, predominate reason why priests do this stuff

In my little value system:
Pedophilia is an abomination.
Covering up the crimes of others makes one an accessory.
Being gay has nothing to do with pedohilia or protecting pedohiles.

[bcipam]

I totally agree, Being gay has nothing to do with pedophilia. The monsters that prey upon children do it not because of a certain sexual orientation but because of the weakness of children. These person are weak themselves and molesting children is the only way they can dominant.

I believe somewhat that many of these men have gone into the priesthood because they had a belief this was a way to cut off their deviant sexual fantasies and desires. The priesthood teaches discipline and these men were seeking control over their feelings. The problem of course is that it actually placed them in a position to act on their feelings. Everyone trusts priest. People trust them with their children. Children are taught at an early age to respect and trust a priest. Long story short, molestations occurred and it was so wrong for the Church to allow these men to go unpunished.

If I have another criticizm of the Catholic Church, it's that they place too much power in their priests. Priests are just men, not any different from any other man. Although clergy should be respected, they do not stand above any one person, we are all equal (this includes gays and straights) in the eyes of God. As men, priest have the ability to sin and the Church body needs to wake up and realize this. What self-respecting parent would allow their sons (and daughters) to go off on over night camping trips etc with a 40 year old guy and no one else. Because he is a priest it's OK? We all have the ability to sin. What the fear of God does is keep us from acting on temptation and those desires. It's hard, even for the most discipline among us.

[Irulan]

if you read the details, plenty of women have been abused by priests too. It may not be the same deal as pedophilia, but it's certainly poeple with power taking advantage of other's vulnerablitlies.

irulan

[bcipam]

Spazz:

Getting into the gay/straight thing... I'm straight, like being straight, will be nothing other than straight. I am also a conservative Evangelical Christian which means I have a literally belief in the bible.

OK that said, on both sides of the coin, there are people who choose to past judgement on other people. I realize there are "bible-thumpers" that give all us Christians a bad name. Say you are a conservative Christian and almost everyone thinks I like Jerry Falwell. I don't and he doesn't represent the majority of Christian any more that Rev. Jesse Jackson speaks for Afro-Americans. In addition, I realize that overly flamboyant, lisping gays do not represent that vast majority of the gay community. They are, however, a very vocal, and intolerant group of people, not any different then Falwell's followers.

I do have a belief system. It is that marriage is a Christian ideal. Marriage is a commitment between a man and a woman under the moral and idealogy that is taught by my Christian faith. Does this mean that only a man and a woman could make a commitment to each other? Of course not. I truly believe most states should allow civil commitment ceremonies for gays and straights (obviously there are straight people who do not want to be married in a Church).

I'm divorced. That means I cannot morally engage in sex unless I am in committed relationship with a man. The same applies to the gay community. What I think has upset many Christians is the casualness that some gays (and I realize many gays are in monogamous, long term relationships there is nothing wrogn with that) engage in sex. That's just wrong, no matter who you are. Does that mean I've never had a one night stand? No, I've sinned. I'm human so not perfect and will continue to sin the rest of my life but as a Christian, I'm trying to do better; to be a better person. I do know and understand that casual sex is wrong.

God is a kind God, but he is also a very strick parent. The rules are set (i.e. 10 commandments and the bible) and he asks that we follow them. Failure to do so will lead to punishment (ie rejection from the Kingdom of Heaven). But we do have the choice to reject his rules. We just need to realize there is a consequence.

Not trying to preach here. Just stating my opinion. And everyone has had great input. I appreciate the candor and opportunity to discuss some serious topics, away from cycling (yes there are other things in life than bikes).

[snapdragen]

Spazz, I think I know what group you are talking about. Fred Phelps is the leader I believe. I remember them hanging around the Pride Festival a couple of years ago. Very mean hearted people, nothing Christian about them. Their website is enought to make you vomit.

They also hate the country of Sweden not quite sure of the reasoning. They claim the tsunami in Indonesia was God's wrath upon the evil Swedes. (Evidently a lot of swedish people take holiday in Indonesia)

[spazzdog]

You may be right Snap... him and 8-12 very mean spirited and seemingly uneducated people using supposed gospel to support their platform.

A class act all the way...

[slinkedog]

Oh! That Fred Phelps guy makes me ashamed to call myself a Christian because he gets so much media coverage that I'm afraid that people think that's what we're all like. I know I was talking earlier about accepting everyone at the point they're at in their journey, but I seriously want to beat that guy up. I think they have a name for those people... oh yeah... insane psycho freaks, to quote the new version of "Freaky Friday," which, by the way, is a very fun movie and I encourage all of you to see it.

[Trek420]

snapdragen sez "They also hate the country of Sweden not quite sure of the reasoning."

Maybe he's Norwegian? I hear there's no love lost between the two neighboring countries

[BikeMomma]

I get discouraged when humankind must always address each other with labels........I wish there was some other way to think of others, rather than put them in stereotypes or classifications. We are all just individuals....and ultimately, we are the same.

I'm not religious, really, but sometimes I'd like to believe that there is someone up there, whoever it may be, looking over me and making sure I don't screw up. But I screw up anyway.

I once worked with a beautiful girl who I liked very much...she was so bubbly and friendly and we got along wonderfully. One day, she nervously told me that she was homosexual, I think afraid of what I may think of her. I think I told her "So what? You're still the same person you were about 5 seconds ago." I'm heterosexual, but it made me like her even more, that she told me who she really was. It left a lasting impression, and with a new understanding that homosexuals are just people, like me. No big deal.

I say if two people love each other, let 'em get married. Legally.

[Trek420]

bcipam writes and so we're

"I'm straight, like being straight, will be nothing other than straight."

All well and good! As for me I can't even ride my bike straight. I hope you don't think anyone who is gay wants to change any of that, we don't.

We think you're fabulous just the way you are.

"I realize that overly flamboyant, lisping gays do not represent that vast majority of the gay community."

Actually, you are wrong, yes they do represent me and I'm proud of them.

Just how flamboyant do we get to be?

How much is too much?

You might see me, work or ride with me and never know I'm gay. I look like any other 50 year old gal out there...except with waaaaaay better legs, thanks TE gals.

But what rights I have were won by folks who could not "pass" as straight, frankly by butch D*kes and Nelly men. They had nothing to loose, they couldn't hide or pass for straight they fought back. I love them.

"I do have a belief system. It is that marriage is a Christian ideal. Marriage is a commitment between a man and a woman under the moral and idealogy that is taught by my Christian faith."

Good, I'm glad to hear that you do have a spiritual path, me too. From what I've read of Christianity I appreciate the teachings.

Taking a deep breath, counting to 10, thinking happy thoughts about this board. OK. I'm Jewish, they call it Judeo/Christian for a reason. I'm hearing you say that marriage is a Christian ideal? I'm glad you feel that way, that it's an ideal but ya didn't invent it ;-)

Uh, I'm not observant or anything I even eat shrimp (see thread above) and I'm not going to debate scripture with you because I'll loose. Our calendar starts 3,760 years and three months *before* Christ was born. Christ was a Jew, the last supper was a Passover meal, we go back a bit.

I've always felt that for one to call oneself a Christian you should understand a bit about our Jewish faith just like for one to know where you are going you gotta know where you've been. But then that's just me.

Marriage is practiced in other religions, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Muslim all have the ideal of commitment to another it's not just a Christian thang. I think it's a value we all share worldwide, a human thing.

And yes there are millions of Gay Christians and those of us who practice other religions too. I'm getting the feeling that some think it's mutualy exclusive like if you're Gay you can't be religious.

"Does this mean that only a man and a woman could make a commitment to each other? Of course not. I truly believe most states should allow civil commitment ceremonies for gays and straights (obviously there are straight people who do not want to be married in a Church)."

Yes, my parents were married in City Hall, happily married for 62 years. My Dad died last year.

Ask a million gay people and you'll get a million different answers. I'm just speaking for me, it's not the commitment ceremony, I can do that without any states permission. It's not the toasters and blenders you get, I can do that too although a blender would be nice. I got enough toasters recruiting straight gals (I am soooooooooooooooo kidding, really. Just could not resist the jab) but please continue to send the fondue sets ;-)

You can call it marriage, civil union, call it PBJ on toast, whatever you want I don't care what you call it. I do care about the thousands of rights priveleges and yes, responsibilities that come with it.

Should I be so lucky to find the gal o' my dreams to ride off into the sunset with were talking about the right to make medical decisions, I know people kept out of hospital rooms while their partners lay mortally ill, who lost their homes because they were considered "legal strangers", protecting the custody of kids and so on.

"I'm divorced. That means I cannot morally engage in sex unless I am in committed relationship with a man. The same applies to the gay community. What I think has upset many Christians is the casualness that some gays (and I realize many gays are in monogamous, long term relationships there is nothing wrogn with that) engage in sex."

I'm sorry to hear about the divorce although I know sometimes it's for the best.

Our conundrum in my community it seems to be the argument is made that we shouldn't marry is that we are considered promiscuous, but folks don't allow us to be "civilised" so you see round and round that goes.

Well, give us the right to marry or whatever you want us to call it and let's see what happens. Bet you'd be pleasantly surprised. Don't know the figures on average but my long term relationships have lasted longer than any of my brother's 3 marriages.

"Not trying to preach here. Just stating my opinion."

Me neither, me too. Didn't take it as preaching at all, thankful for the space to share oppinions and beliefs and to hear yours. Not meaning to make this forum or even this thread a debate about Gay rights, just one gals oppinions and there are lots more important things to do like protect kids and....just get out and ride.

"I appreciate the candor and opportunity to discuss some serious topics, away from cycling (yes there are other things in life than bikes)."

there are things other than bikes?

[BikeMomma]

there are things other than bikes?

yep....'fraid so.....
But I'd rather just think about bikes (and ride 'em!)

[Trek420]

BikeMomma "yep....'fraid so.....
But I'd rather just think about bikes (and ride 'em!) [/QUOTE]"

Yep, me too. And wherever the heck we are on the Kinsey scale we all share one love in common here, we love Bike Porn! That and Gorgeous George...how many days till the TdF?

Thanks TE for bringing us all together here and providing a space.

[newrider]

My new bike, which I love so much, is red/white/blue. Only comes in red/white/blue. Almost didn't buy the bike because it's red/white/blue.

I love the country (sing it, Woody! This Land is Your Land...), but sure have blood-pressure raising issues with the Administration of the country's government. I'm afraid of what the U.S. flag has come to represent. Being patriotic seems to mean towing the administrations line....

Back when the Iraq war was new, there were flags everywhere in the schools I travel to as part of my work. I was apprehensive about what little kids were learning about the war, about being good citizens, about freedom (having a voice of dissent). I found a little flag pin that said "Peace is patriotic," and wore it on my coat. Felt I was at least saying *something else*.

Anyway, I bought the bike, of course, wasn't going to let the administration prevent me from living!!!! 2 days later, on my first group ride, there were 2 guys wearing Cannondale Peace Jerseys (beautiful, orange...). Asked them where they found them, then came home and ordered my own from the Performance Bikes website. The women's version is mostly light blue, and will go *so* well with my bike. Oh Fortuna!

So my bike will get to speak her mind, lovingly and with hope!!! And I will, too.

I enjoy so much reading all these posts, and feeling the care that everyone seems to generate. Thanks for being who you are!