OT - Politics, Religion... the taboos

[spazzdog]

What Trek420 said... basically we all deserve the same rights under the law and under the god we worship, after all he/she created each and everyone of us in his/her image. Period.

Listen my lovely TE family (because that's what y'all really are in my life);

I opened this thread, not to be a gay vs straight thing, though through my own choosing of the 2 issues so far, it may appear that way. This is a thread for "religion, politics, and whatever taboo"... all the stuff we're not supposed to talk about at the old dinner party.

I do not want it to be come an "us vs them" thing. I consider you all to be intelligent, open minded and caring women whom I respect, thusly when certain analogies are made, feelings/sensitivities can get hurt. To bcipam: to compare the nelly boys with Falwell is a bit hurtful. He spouts intolerance and hate, something the boys do not do. I would respectfully ask that we all watch our analogies in this forum.

End of speech. And to all, I thank you for sharing your opinions here.

Now somebody else pick the next "taboo".

[wabisabi]

Thanks for this thread everyone. I have great difficulty, not with one's spiritual beliefs, but with the seeming need to impose that belief system upon everyone else. As Trek pointed out, some of us practice in traditions that are old and have strong ethical systems, or we have an ethically based system of right and wrong. I simply cannot understand the need (in THIS country in particular) to impose that upon everyone else, tho' I get the impression that 'evangelizing' (i.e., those people who come quite uninvited to MY door) is about this. This is a huge blind spot! It seems to me that these folks should practice loving others and for developing in themselves compassion for all, in all of their weirdness and wonderfulness; love between people is such a rare and precious thing. When people are not allowed to express it, maybe are even killed for it, I can imagine that this takes a tremendous psychological and emotional toll--how can this not crack open our hearts in love?

OK, I work in this general territory, so I guess I had to drag out a soapbox. Stepping down now.

[Trek420]

newrider writes "My new bike, which I love so much, is red/white/blue. Only comes in red/white/blue. Almost didn't buy the bike because it's red/white/blue."

you'll need the matching helmet, check it out:

http://www.lazerhelmets.com/site/cyc...8&cat=1&item=2

[bcipam]

Love the passionate discussion.

Just want to clarify some things. When I say I am straight and will never be anything but I didn't say it to pass judgement. Being straight for me is a biological thing. I didn't choose it - that's just the way I am. I physically like men although they at times drive me nuts. I don't know for a fact (but hopefully will be informed otherwise) but I believe most gay people don't choose that orientation - they just are. That is the way God made them and to hate/ridicule/berrate/condemn one of God's creations is just wrong, no matter who you are.

I realize there is a Catch 22 in most states. I do believe a committed gay couple should be allowed to have a civil ceremony to confirm their commitment. They are no different than a regular straight couple in that way they love each other and wish to care for one another. I had two dear friends, who were in a comittment relationship, that went through alot of grief and hassle when one of the partners contracted AIDS. The one partner had no say or control over the sick partner which was unfortunate. They were together for 16 years. The remaining partner is a good friend to this day and we both grieve over the loss of his one true love.

It's difficult when viewpoints are so opposite. I am sometimes frustrated by the fact that everyone is allowed to express their views but mention you are a conversative christian and that viewpoint is condemned/belittled for being "preaching" or "judgement". We all judge things in our own way. Liberals judge our government by saying the Iraqi war is wrong or by arguing the far left viewpoint is the viewpoint of all conversatives and conversely, I agree, there are conservatives that think all liberals are "pinko commies".

I have my beliefs as others have their but I enjoy and look forward to listening to what everyone has to offer. It's important to hear the other side, to learn and understand another viewpoint. I'm interested in hearing what obstrucles and problems the gay community has encountered in order to understand what it is like to live as a Liberal Gay American in a country that is prodominantly Christian Conservative.

The cool thing about being an American is that we can have these discussions. Here, life is truly good.

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Edited to add: Trek - Appreciate your response. I misspoke when I said Marriage is a Christian belief - it is - but clearly it started with Judiasm (sp?) The Old Testament/Jewish Laws are the basis of my Christian beliefs. The Jews are God's chosen people. For me to believe otherwise is wrong.

It's difficult sometimes in this type of forum to adequately express viewpoints and beliefs because the discourse and response is not immediately. I am not a gay bashing/jew hating person. Uncertain how that has come across in what I have posted, but if anyone has been offended, I apologize.

[bcipam]

Spazz:

It took me awhile to figure out what "nelly boys" are. I've never heard that term.

I have several good friends who also happen to be gay. They hate the fact that everyone expects them to be flamboyant, like Jack on "Will and Grace." If my friends didn't tell you they were gay, you wouldn't know it. From them, I understood most gay men (can't speak for women) don't like to necessarily be associated with "nelly boys." They hate "Will and Grace" and cringe at the mention of Jack and characters like him. I admit I've learned only from my friends and there are alot of viewpoints out there. I'm interested in hearing from you as to whom you respect to speak for the gay community and what issues and problems you feel affect the Community and what would do you think needs to be done to resolve those issues. Help educate me and others understand best where you all are coming from.

[newbiechick]

I just want to say that I'm not sure I've ever encountered another forum anywhere where people have voiced their views, beliefs, concerns, passions, etc. so eloquently and remained so open, accepting, and non-judging of others in the process. Kudos to all of you who've contributed here for taking the high road! While I don't feel a need to weigh in on any particular issue at the moment, I know I'll feel comfortable doing so if/when the time comes.

[wabisabi]

According to the folks at Gallup, 8 of 10 people in the U.S. say they are Christian, with 4 of 10 attending church regularly, but this by no means equates to "conservative." I have a lot of friends who are good old social activist leftist, progressive Christians, some gay and lesbian, some not, as are some represented here. Some Christian churches have very progressive policies toward social justice issues, and would likely take issues with being characterized as "predomimantly" conservative. It's a big country.

[spazzdog]

I believe no one and every one speaks for the gay community. We are no different than the straight community excepting for whom we choose to love.

We are democrats, repulicans, independants, socialists. We are doctors, lawyers, ditch diggers and military personel. We have children by birth or by adoption. We are christians, jews, muslims, buddists and atheists. We are every race. We wear dresses, pants, shorts, sandals, skirts, high heels, oxfords and go barefoot. We travel around the world or never leave our home town. We are your neighbor, your sibling, your aunt, your uncle. We are your child, your child's best fiend, your niece or your nephew.

We are everywhere, in every country. That is what I know about the gay community.

As to eleviating the issues facing my community... I don't have the answers. All I know is the first step in this very young country of ours, is for people to stop being so concerned about what goes on between consenting adults. My marriage (if I have one) has nothing to do with a straight marriage. The U.S.A. is mine as much as it is anyone elses... and I pay the taxes to prove it.

And for the record, marriage is a religious union. If my religion allows marriage why should anybody elses religion care. A legal union is what you get the license for (and pay your state) and something which all people of age should have equal rights to.

spazzdog - who's done all the "cerebral" stuff she can today.

[Melody]

I've come into this discussion a bite late, but I thought I'd put in a word.

I was raised and still am Catholic and very religious. I also don't believe homosexual == pedophile. I am, however, sad for what the Church authorities have done. The Church isn't just the priests and nuns and other officials, but it is also the lay people. Without the people, the Church doesn't exist.

One thing I learned in parochial school was that the officials of the church, the priests and the nuns, are people too and thus fallable. Yes, this even means the Pope. We all make mistakes. None of us are perfect.

I'd like to think, in generally, the Church is a decent organization. We have problems with close mindedness, but that exists everywhere. Conservativism exists. But, another thing I learned was do not believe something is true just because someone in power (like a priest) said that This Is The Truth(tm). Instead, question the belief. Examine it. Is it true for you? Do you feel it is right? If so, embrace it and make it your own. If it isn't, voice your questions and have it explained. The answer "Just because" is not an answer.

Admittedly, it's been tough at times. I had a hard time coming to grips with my own sexuality (I'm bi) and other things going on in my life. I've worked through them and ultimately, I gained strength and purpose.

What's funny is that I'm still a pretty conservative person. I was even a founding member of the Young Republicans at my University. :P But I am also quite liberal in many aspects. I'm a person so not one thing defines me. To grow, is to also change and adapt.

I once had a conversation with my husband about gay marriage and I thought he had an interesting solution. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends on how you view it) Marriage is both civil and religious. He thought that that instead, it should be seperated. He believes that all Unions should be civil and thus form of contract between two individuals. Thus, gay-straight-whatever, at a state and federal level, would always be a Union and thus laws, such as divorce, inheritance, and medical, would be the same for all.

But, if you wanted a Marriage, then it would strictly be religious and have no bearing from a civil standpoint. It would thus be up to that religion if they would allow gay marriage, but all such marriages would have no legal standing, only a religious one.

I hope I made some sense in all of this.

Mel

[Trek420]

bcipam adds: "Trek - The Jews are God's chosen people. For me to believe otherwise is wrong.:

Yes but I believe it was Henny Youngman who asked "G**, could you choose us for something else?"

[slinkedog]

LOL!!! That's the best laugh I've had all day.

[newrider]

Trek 420! What a helmet! I can see it now, with little American Flags stuck in the vents!

It's called "the Cannibal?" Sounds pretty much like American economics to me!!

Thanks for the visual!

[Trek420]

newrider "I can see it now, with little American Flags stuck in the vents! "

and red white and blue tassles on the handlebars

[pedaddler]

i've been away from the list for some time and just happened to pick up here today. i started out angry at the association of gay and pedophile, settled down a bit with the flow of the thread, and finally at the last page, felt thankful that i can read and participate in a forum like this one, the open and free expression of thoughts. i'm gay and not catholic, or christian, or jewish or anything else that fits neatly into a box, thank you very much, and am grateful for the expression here. kudos to all of you who put yourselves out there.

victoria

[bcipam]

I once had a conversation with my husband about gay marriage and I thought he had an interesting solution. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends on how you view it) Marriage is both civil and religious. He thought that that instead, it should be seperated. He believes that all Unions should be civil and thus form of contract between two individuals. Thus, gay-straight-whatever, at a state and federal level, would always be a Union and thus laws, such as divorce, inheritance, and medical, would be the same for all.

But, if you wanted a Marriage, then it would strictly be religious and have no bearing from a civil standpoint. It would thus be up to that religion if they would allow gay marriage, but all such marriages would have no legal standing, only a religious one.

That's exactly what I think should be allowed and don't understand why it has not yet occurred. Any two, sound minded consenting adults should be allowed to form a legal union in order to consummate their commitment and to legally grant the same rights to each partner regardless of sexual orientation. Marriage is and should remain a religious union.

I believe as Americans every citizen has the right to protection under the law. Federally there are protected classes such as persons of color, religious affiliation, woman, persons over 40, the disabled etc. Sexual preference is not a protected right and I suppose there are alot of good valid arguments as to why it is not and there are good arguments as to why it should be included. Gays have been discriminated against but then again, so have persons who are overweight, or who choose to dress in an inappropriate manner accepted by society (such as goth, punk, gangstra etc). I believe its the general concensus that those groups choose to be that way as opposed to say being born black or brown. You do have a choice to conform and operate within normal society (by the way, not my opinion, I believe being gay is a biological/genetic issue).

Many people (and this includes a number of my friends) believe gays make the choice to be gay and thus can make the choice to return to being straight in order to conform with society. It's interesting that this thread combines religion and sexual preference as religion, which is Federally protected, is the one protected right that a person chooses. I cannot choose to be black, a woman, over 40 but I can choose to be a Christian.

It appears, from reading the posts on this thread, that some gays have turned away from God. I can understand not feeling welcomed by the Church body. It is very hard for people to understand that the Church is not God but a body of people who struggle to learn and understand and live within God's laws and no church is perfect or has it right. I hate to see people turn away from God because of something a church (and by that I mean its people) has done. That Church and its people are full of sin and pride and thus looked down upon by God.

I know there are alot of different churches out there. Somes welcome gays (all churches should welcome gays but then again, there are alot of stupid, uneducated and uniformed people out there). One can also study the bible on their own and by doing so, will understand how God sees all us children. As his creation we are all equal, not one more so than the other. We unfortunately develop as we mature and grow, through experience and temptation, a sinful soul, it's hard to live life without breaking the Commandments or without pride. Hopefully it's through a Forum such as this one we can discuss, learn and understand the shoes each of us walks in.

I myself for many years did not have belief in God (I was raised Buddist by the way). Several years back I had an experience which I would not wish on anyone (trust me it was your worse nigthmare), but through it I came to understand that God does exist, that he offers us each a better life and that I no longer need to be afraid of dying because something so much better is waiting for me. I can't tell you how much beter my life has been since I accepted Jesus as my savior. Now is it all bunk? I suppose it might be, but I have faith I'm right in knowing God exists.

* * *

It's a shame that these types of discussion must be catagorized in a "taboo" section. That expressing one's belief causes other to get angry and upset. Just know that I'm interested in hearing each person's thoughts and want to understand how each of us think and live.


OK - enough already I guess... I need to go ride!