Please share: Relationships, Engagement and Marriage

[michelem]

Irulan,

Thanks so much for sharing. What words of wisdom! And what an inspiration to us all.

[KSH]

First off, do not let the fact that everyone around you is getting married, make you feel like YOU should be getting married. There is a lot of unspoken pressure on women to get married. It's like if you are not married... there must be something wrong with you. There isn't. It's OK not to be married.

When I was in my early to mid 20's all I wanted was to find my soul mate and get married. I was engaged 1 official time and had 2 other guys ready to propose before I married "the one" in 1999.

I met "the one" (let's call him Jim), at a house party where I went to meet up with this other guy. That guy was a jerk so Jim and I started chatting. We clicked immediately. Fireworks! Sparks! BAM!

Over the course of a month we were attached to each other (as much as we could be since I was traveling on business) all the time and he moved in. After 30 days we KNEW we wanted to get married. It just felt so right, so perfect. My soul mate had be found... FINALLY!

We got married a year later. I figured a long engagement was a wise decision.

For the next year we had our fights about various things. But what couple doesn't fight. We had some issues in the bedroom and went to a therapist before getting married. It didn't do anything for us, because the person he presented to her wasn't who he was at home. He was a great manipulator.

But he was the one. I just KNEW it. I had faith in my feelings and my decision.

The night before the wedding he and I were fighting about stuff, the usual stuff... bedroom stuff... his insecurities... his jealousness... etc. A thought passed through my head, "Do not marry this man". But then I realized that I had all these people in Mexico to watch us getting married, and there was no way in hell I was losing face by calling off the wedding. I chalked it up to pre-wedding jitters and forged ahead. We got married the next day.

The fights continued. As time went on I began to realize that the man he TOLD me he was... wasn't the man he was in reality.

When we met he told me how driven he was and how he wanted to be successful in life, but as time went on it was obvious he was not motivated to do anything. He was out of work a lot, fired a lot, etc. Didn't know what he wanted to do for a job, floundered and really enjoyed not working.

I on the other hand, I'm driven. I have a professional job. I have a college degree. I'm organized and I have my life together. My life was taking care of him and the household. I didn't get any help from him. When he worked he paid his half of the bills, that was it.

At one point he was out of work, I was working a full time job and working at a club as the coat check on the weekends. He was out partying with his friends, and I was working.

Trust me, I could go on and on about all the miserable stuff he did.

But I was married. There was NO WAY I was going to leave a marriage. For better or worse. I was there to stay. I just had to tolerate his behavior and try to keep the fighting to a minimum between us.

Towards the end of our marriage he had decided he was going to work at an after hours club. Which I would have tolerated if he would have had a day job. Nope. Forget the day job. He just wanted to work at the after hours club, do drugs (I later found out about), and party.

I went on a business trip and when I came back, this was February 2004, I told him I wasn't putting up with his crap anymore. He had to treat me good. Period.

He said he wanted a divorce. I said fine. And told him to get the h@ll out. He left and never came back. It was the happiest day of my life. I certainly didn't love him anymore and I had grown to dislike him greatly. Just the sight of him the last few months of our marriage, made me sick.

I later found out he was doing meth, and cheating on me. Nice.

What I learned from this experience:

1) You can't KNOW someone after only a few months or even a year or two. People have a vision of who they are, and it's not always reality. Only over time can you really start to understand who a person is at their core, by watching their behavior over time. This is why I cringe when I see someone just jump into marriage.

2) Marriage is serious. It sounds like fun... you get sucked into the fairy tale... being swept off your feet and into love. But the fairy tale ends and you are stuck with this person day in and day out.

3) When you are married, there is no way out if that person treats you like crap, unless you are willing to get divorced. I didn't want to get divorced so I had to tolerate him treating me bad. Me asking him to be a good person didn't do it. He didn't care how he treated me and I couldn't change that.

4) Very few people who are married are happy. Some are. But MOST are not. Most are in the marriage for the kids, it's the right thing, etc.

5) Marriage is all about tolerating someone else. They will change over time. You will have tolerate it. For example, my ex got to where he refused to shower more than twice a week. I asked him to shower, he would not. There was nothing I could do. I had to tolerate it.

As you can probably guess, I will never get married again. I have been dating my boyfriend of 5 years and we don't even live together. I don't want to be trapped. Ever again. I want to be happy. And no one, not any man, is going to be charge of my life or happiness, ever again.

[Biciclista]

KSH, please don't take this personally. From what you wrote, you did the right thing ditching that guy. I just want people to understand that a good marriage between two flawed people IS possible.

First off, do not let the fact that everyone around you is getting married, make you feel like YOU should be getting married. There is a lot of unspoken pressure on women to get married. It's like if you are not married... there must be something wrong with you. There isn't. It's OK not to be married.

.
I absolutely agree.

the night before MY wedding, I thought; "I am making a big mistake, I shouldn't marry this guy" But I did.
And sometimes it was really tough, but I am glad I went through with it. In the eyes of any sane person who was around me at that time, it was obvious that I had made a mistake. But that's precisely why I am telling you guys about my marriage (see post above) because there's no RULE Not all happy marriages have a 2 year engagement and a church wedding. Not all unhappy marriages started with a drunk groom and a trip to Las Vegas

1) You can't KNOW someone after only a few months or even a year or two. People have a vision of who they are, and it's not always reality. Only over time can you really start to understand who a person is at their core, by watching their behavior over time. This is why I cringe when I see someone just jump into marriage.

You can apply this rule even further. You never really know someone (know how they are going to react in a given situation) so what's the difference between waiting 3 months or 3 years?
Like so many other things in life, marriage is a crapshoot.

2) Marriage is serious. It sounds like fun... you get sucked into the fairy tale... being swept off your feet and into love. But the fairy tale ends and you are stuck with this person day in and day out.

You're absolutely right here. Once the shine is off, you can see the warts and smell their dirty socks. BUT, with TWO people making a commitment, it's worth it.

3) When you are married, there is no way out if that person treats you like crap, unless you are willing to get divorced. I didn't want to get divorced so I had to tolerate him treating me bad. Me asking him to be a good person didn't do it. He didn't care how he treated me and I couldn't change that.

Right. Person #2 didn't make a commitment. That just won't work!

4) Very few people who are married are happy. Some are. But MOST are not. Most are in the marriage for the kids, it's the right thing, etc.

Very few people are happy. I have been unhappy with myself but happy with my marriage. today I am happy about both. It's worth working on and fighting for. My life is so richer having been married, a partnership with a person based on love, respect and compromise...

5) Marriage is all about tolerating someone else. They will change over time. You will have tolerate it. For example, my ex got to where he refused to shower more than twice a week. I asked him to shower, he would not. There was nothing I could do. I had to tolerate it.

Marriage is also about picking your battles. I can get totally freaked out about coffee cups everywhere or I can save my energy for more important stuff.

You're ABSOLUTELY right. If you don't want to waste energy doing this compromise dance, and ha, raising kids, that's even harder than being married. And you don't get the benefit of happily ever after. Your kids are going to grow up and leave you; so PLEASE don't just get married to have kids.

[KSH]

KSH, please don't take this personally. From what you wrote, you did the right thing ditching that guy. I just want people to understand that a good marriage between two flawed people IS possible.



.
I absolutely agree.

the night before MY wedding, I thought; "I am making a big mistake, I shouldn't marry this guy" But I did.
And sometimes it was really tough, but I am glad I went through with it. In the eyes of any sane person who was around me at that time, it was obvious that I had made a mistake. But that's precisely why I am telling you guys about my marriage (see post above) because there's no RULE Not all happy marriages have a 2 year engagement and a church wedding. Not all unhappy marriages started with a drunk groom and a trip to Las Vegas



You can apply this rule even further. You never really know someone (know how they are going to react in a given situation) so what's the difference between waiting 3 months or 3 years?
Like so many other things in life, marriage is a crapshoot.



You're absolutely right here. Once the shine is off, you can see the warts and smell their dirty socks. BUT, with TWO people making a commitment, it's worth it.


Right. Person #2 didn't make a commitment. That just won't work!




Very few people are happy. I have been unhappy with myself but happy with my marriage. today I am happy about both. It's worth working on and fighting for. My life is so richer having been married, a partnership with a person based on love, respect and compromise...




Marriage is also about picking your battles. I can get totally freaked out about coffee cups everywhere or I can save my energy for more important stuff.

You're ABSOLUTELY right. If you don't want to waste energy doing this compromise dance, and ha, raising kids, that's even harder than being married. And you don't get the benefit of happily ever after. Your kids are going to grow up and leave you; so PLEASE don't just get married to have kids.

Great commentary!

BTW- he ditched me. I hung on to the marriage until he said he wanted a divorce. But I certainly didn't fight it when he said he was leaving. I didn't suggest we work on it, I didn't wait around "just in case", I started dating someone 2 weeks later (who I am still with 5 years later).

Let me add this, I now know that I'm not made for marriage. I can be selfish and I want everything my way.

I think my decisions are the wisest most times and if someone doesn't want to go along with a decision of mine that seems to me, to be more intelligent, then I get annoyed and shut down.

Horrible to say, I know, but that is why I can only take people in small doses (aka: not live with them).

Of course it didn't help that I was married to a completely selfish and insecure man who only cared about the world revolving around him. Even though I am selfish, I still think of others and try to do things to make them happy. I did cater to him and take care of him.

With that said, I know never to get married again and I will not be having kids.

[Crankin]

Thank you, Mimi for your apt comments. KSH, you seem like you know yourself well; but I do agree with Mimi in that very few PEOPLE are happy. People look to others to fulfill their dreams and that isn't going to happen. Most people go into marriage only caring about their dream wedding that they spend zillions on and never give a thought to what comes afterwards. I don't care if you are 19 or 39, but this seems to be the way it is.
I was married to a jerk before I met my husband. I knew the whole time it was wrong, but I still went ahead and did it, because I didn't want to be alone at the age of 22! Most people don't even know that I was married before and my own kids were shocked when they found out.
Everything I did the second time would have predicted disaster (moving in together after a month and getting married after six months) but we are even happier now, after 29 years. We've really never had any rough times, a few bad fights, but mostly we just talk about everything. And, I'm a pretty selfish person, too. But, I've become more caring because my husband proved to me that he was going to stick around no matter what.

Most people around where I live get married between the ages of 35-50. There's lots of first time moms who are in their forties. This presents a whole other bunch of issues; personally, I am glad I didn't wait. I had a job, a graduate degree, and felt like an adult at 26. I wasn't sure if I wanted kids, but when my husband was very close to getting himself "fixed," I suddenly became obsessed with having one. So, I knew that I really did want kids!
Like I said before, while you have to take care of yourself, the marital bond should come before any other relationships. For years my in laws went nuts because they thought I turned my husband into a "snob" because he finished his degree, got a good professional job, and moved back east. In a lot of cases, a husband (or wife) doesn't stand up to his or her parents over stuff like that. There never was a question here. When they learned they couldn't bully us or buy our affection, it calmed down, but never really went away.

[Irulan]

Irulan,

Thanks so much for sharing. What words of wisdom! And what an inspiration to us all.

well thank you but it's only MY experience. There's a lot of different experience out there- a whole range of them. And everyone has different approaches, attitudes and awarenesses ( or not) that affect what their relationship experiences will be. This thread is a great example of the range of things people go through.

[michelem]

Irulan,

So true, but I relate to yours the most!

[smilingcat]

I wish I could have read this about 25 years ago... Wonderful advice and thoughts.

Well my ex- didn't respect me nor the marriage. didn't show up at appointments with counselors. Even changed counselors because my ex felt that the counselor was siding with me! and wasn't being impartial. did a no show on more than half the time. When my ex did show it was for the last 5 minuts of the appointment. It was awkward just sitting at the marriage counselors office like that. I always ended up apologizing for wasting their time.

I thanked my couselors for at least trying and they wished me well. The divorce was very much acrimonious, long and drawn out. I ended up having to pay alimony to my ex. for just over 3 years.

-------------------
Yes it has lot to do with respecting each other, respecting each others needs and desires. It's about working together.

When I was going through my protracted divorce, I met a woman who was going through her crazy divorce. We shared stories and became best of friends. We cried and laughed together and we supported each other in those difficult emotional times. And now she shares my house with me and she is my partner. We are the best of buds. Sometimes we disagree but I really value her for being her. She makes me laugh, she keeps me grounded. I can't make her laugh as much but I'm almost always there for her when she needs a friend.

We've been best of friends for past 17 years and I don't think either of us had to raise our voices at each other. We laugh together at my expense. And we overlook each others fault. I know I have mine and I have a pretty big skelton closet. She has hers too. But we do our best to ignore them. My partner is more of the artist type, very creative and I'm always awed by what she creates. My upbringing was "warm" in some respect in other respect it was harsh. My father has an MD degree with Phd in biochem. And I think he was a Rhode scholar? My mother doesn't say much. I being the eldest was expected to get both. So I tend to be bit more self critical and analytical. This is one of many faults I have. And because of all the faults we each have, we overlook it. Like the saying, "don't throw rocks in a glass house"

Its about give a lot take a little. I'm really happy to have my best friend and we share our lives together. We don't consider ourselves lesbians not that its bad or good. We just don't think we fit that mold. We are best of friends, a family (bit odd perhaps)...

smilingcat

[deedolce]

Wow. What an incredible thread. By far my favorite out of many forums I frequent! I, too, wish I had read a thread like this 20+ years ago...

I grew up in a very uptight household. Never dated in high school, dated very little in college - and then I walked into an art class, and saw this tall, blue eyed graduate student. Wavy brown hair - broad shoulders, and a road cyclist. My professor was ailing, so he took over the class. The day after class was out, I went to pick up my piece from the gallery. He was just walking out the other door. I called out. We talked, and then I asked him out. I found out later, he had been waiting for me to show up, to ask me out. I beat him to the punch. 1 month later, he had moved in to my apartment. 3 months later, we eloped. I was 23, he 24. He kept telling me how he wanted to teach, and I envisioned a life as a professor's wife in a college town.

After we finished school, he with his MFA, mine a BS, we moved to the city. He felt he had to show his work, before he could feel right teaching. So we worked, he did a couple of shows, never really sold his work, and got frustrated, working for a living, and not living off his art. 5 years later we had a son. 2 years later a daughter. I was always the 'easy going' one in my family, the middle child. So we did what he wanted to do, lived pursuing his dreams. It was hard. Little money, a frustrated artist. We never really fought: we also never talked about fears/hopes/dreams. So when he was away on a job - he started an affair. My newborn daughter was maybe 5 months old. I remember the day he walked in the room, and he was wrought: and he told me he was in love with someone else. I felt like someone had punched through my chest, and removed my heart. He told me he felt he was dead inside, with two young children, and his dreams going nowhere. All he did was work, day after day. He would always say to himself or me that all he had to do was '...pull himself up by the bootstraps.' But he never talked to me, and I didn't ask, overwhelmed myself with a newborn and a toddler. He said he still loved me too, and we didn't have to divorce if I didn't want to.

I asked him to consider counseling. He said okay, if it would help me deal with it. I think it woke up a part of me that had laid dormant for awhile.
To h3ll with that!! I filed for divorce. He left with a truckload of tools and the dog. I moved back to my mother's with a 2 year old and a 7 month old infant.

I stayed single for 12 years after that. I stayed a couple of years with my mother, then moved out because I was afraid of getting too dependent (my mom insisted on paying for everything, and helped watch my kids) so I moved an hour away, and through the years, went back to school in the evenings, got my credential, got a job, bought a house, raised my kids.

Then at work, there was a younger co-worker that was going through all kinds of drama. He seemed sweet, and cute, and he was suffering through an unfaithful wife that was moving out of state with her boyfriend, leaving him with 2 young kids. By then, my youngest was a 6th grader. I was missing male companionship keenly. So...we became fwb. I thought I could. I had my friends, my career, my home, I already had kids who spent every other weekend with their Dad. My fwb was 10 years younger, and he was a passionate lover, he was clearly bad 'relationship' material for a number of reasons, from being a 'drama junkie', bankrupt, pot smoker, etc...and I ended up learning a big lesson about myself. I can't be intimate and not get sucked in emotionally. Yep, I fell 'in love' with my young fwb. After I let slip those fateful words, he broke it off with me. I was heartbroken. To rub salt in the wound, within two weeks he was dating, and then married wife #2. Did I mention we were co-workers? And he was a drama junkie? He took every opportunity to parade her her in front of me at functions, practically mauling her, that even other coworkers were offended! I stayed single for MORE years after that!

But I was still lonely. Felt something was missing. So I decided to try the online dating scene. Lots of first dates with 'interesting' men. Some damaged and single for a reason. Others with a check off list and pretty full of themselves and their search. Others misrepresenting themselves, others with just no sparks but nice guys. I'd often need 'dating breaks' from the madness! But for some reason, I felt the need to keep looking, although I had everything else to be absolutely happy and content, I felt my life was incomplete.

Then, NOT on a dating forum, but another cycling forum, I had posted about some of my internet dating experiences in response to a thread and this cyclist responded. It was flirty, but respectful too. Heck, I flirted back. After a couple days of this, it moved to pms. Then gee, instead of throwing his bike in his truck to find roads to ride during Memorial weekend, why not spend gas money on a plane ticket, and fly out to ride with me and meet? Sure, why not? He flew out.

Of course, after many years of self imposed hermitage, and online 'first meets' that mostly went nowhere, I was good at keeping men at a distance. With him, all those defenses were GONE. Fate, or some intuitve inner aspect of myself, softened my heart to this guy. He wasn't my taste at all as far as looks. But there was this overpowering feeling of comfort and closeness. I tend to be scattered and ungrounded. He was like a rock of security. The best feeling in the world was to lay my head on his chest, and feel his arms wrap around me...

It's been 5 months of a long distance relationship, now. He's been a victim of the economy, and changing careers. Again, I'm 10 years older, and feel a little overly self-concious of my many laugh lines and approaching menopause, and the changes that'll bring as far as our currently amazing physical relationship...
but the BIGGEST draw about him is his ability to communicate with me. The thing that was completely missing from my marriage. He's much more experienced in what it takes for a healthy relationship, always keeping things in perspective and seeing us as a 'team' in our relationship and working towards 'for the rest of our lives'.

One thing I know for sure, that niggling feeling that my life wasn't quite complete is GONE. With him, I'm home.

[Biciclista]

Deedolce, WHAT A STORY! thanks for sharing, and good luck with your current sweetie!

[deedolce]

Thanks, Mimi. I'm hopeful, but I'm a bit concerned about how a ldr will translate to a full time one when he's done with school!

[roadie gal]

I've never been married, but I've done serial monogamy a number of times. I come from a very disfunctional family. My parents were married until my mother died, but my father used to beat her and throw us out of the house at random intervals throughout my life. My reaction to any tension in a relationship was to either cheat or run away. I never learned to just work things out. Whenever I'd leave one relationship I'd bounce right away to another with someone who was just the opposite of what I'd left. I never took the time to figure out what was RIGHT for me. I just went to whatever was not what I'd just had.

April 1999 I wrote a story and posted it on the internet. (Xena fanfiction) About 100 people wrote to me about the story. I wrote to say at least "thank you" to all of them. I ended up keeping in touch with about 5 of them. One person kept writing back and we ended up being friends. She helped me get through the breakup with my latest relationship. Things were getting closer between us, but she wouldn't come and visit (she lived across the country) or take the next step until I had cleaned up my current mess. For months we talked and wrote and shared our feelings before we even met each other in person. Finally, in September '99 she flew out to visit. She moved in with me in Feb 2000.

It's been hard to move beyond my past. Sometimes I still feel like running away. But then I remind myself that she's not going anywhere. Her confidence in me and our ability to work things out makes it easier to stay and do just that. I love her so much for that.

This is the longest relationship I've ever had. It took me this long to realize that you don't have to be madly in love every day. Some days you don't even have to like each other. If you treat each other with respect and gentleness and support each other then things will work out. And those days that you are madly in love are wonderful.

[ikkin]

...It took me this long to realize that you don't have to be madly in love every day. Some days you don't even have to like each other. If you treat each other with respect and gentleness and support each other then things will work out. And those days that you are madly in love are wonderful.

...very wise words.

combine the above with not taking things personally and you've got a bombproof recipe for a long, happy relationship. good luck!

[roadie gal]

...very wise words.

combine the above with not taking things personally and you've got a bombproof recipe for a long, happy relationship. good luck!

OMG, YES! That one is huge.

[Flybye]

I think that if we think that being in love is that butterflies/heart racing/flushed feeling and that it will last forever, we are setting ourselves up for a let down. That's is infatuation, which is completely different from love. That infatuation feeling comes and goes. I have been married for 15 years with prior dating making our time with one another 20 years and I love my husband in a more rich, deep way than ever before. It is nice when that is complimented with a little heart racing now and then.

I think the second most ridiculous piece of advice is "never let the sun go down on your anger" - the worst fights that we have had have been late at night when we have nothing left to give the world on a day when all is going well. Sleep does amazing things for perspective on problems. What seemed so huge at 11:00 pm seems so minute at 8:00 am.

Make a point of going with them to events that they like - games, fishing, etc. - that is what is important to them. You don't see men getting together to just hang out and visit - they like to DO things.

Date your squeeze - I can't stress that enough.

I could share more lessons, but these are what came to mind right now.