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  1. #151
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    Note use of "which" as opposed to "that." Okay, I need to stop this. ;-)

  2. #152
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    argh! I've been spelling "ad nauseam" wrong for years. Damn.
    Winter riding is much less about badassery and much more about bundle-uppery. - malkin

    1995 Kona Cinder Cone commuterFrankenbike/Selle Italia SLR Lady Gel Flow
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    2000 Schwinn Fastback Comp road bike/Specialized Jett

  3. #153
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    eeeeeeeeks! So have I. :-(

  4. #154
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    Arg! I've been spelling it wrong ad nauseam also.
    Frends know gud humors when dey is hear it. ~ Da Crockydiles of ZZE.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by SadieKate View Post
    to protect you against patterns which are regarded

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah [running screaming out of room]!

    kjay, I'm SO glad I'm not the only one who's bothered by that!
    Speed comes from what you put behind you. - Judi Ketteler

  6. #156
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    Hey, I didn't make that statement. Feel free to correct your quote . . .

    And read the website author's statement about which/that.
    http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/which.html

    And more comments from the author of English language guide (and found through comments on Brians' site -- and notice the italics and a redundant indent to show that I am quoting someone else):
    http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch...ng/t.html#that

    That versus Which.
    According to the more quibbling self-styled grammar experts, that is restrictive, while which is not.

    Many grammarians insist on a distinction without any historical justification. Many of the best writers in the language couldn't tell you the difference between them, while many of the worst think they know. If the subtle difference between the two confuses you, use whatever sounds right. Other matters are more worthy of your attention.

    For the curious, however, the relative pronoun that is restrictive, which means it tells you a necessary piece of information about its antecedent: for example, "The word processor that is used most often is WordPerfect." Here the that phrase answers an important question: which of the many word processors are we talking about? And the answer is the one that is used most often.

    Which is non-restrictive: it does not limit the word it refers to. An example is "Penn's ID center, which is called CUPID, has been successful so far." Here that is unnecessary: the which does not tell us which of Penn's many ID centers we're considering; it simply provides an extra piece of information about the plan we're already discussing. "Penn's ID Center" tells us all we really need to know to identify it.

    It boils down to this: if you can tell which thing is being discussed without the which or that clause, use which; if you can't, use that.

    There are two rules of thumb you can keep in mind. First, if the phrase needs a comma, you probably mean which. Since "Penn's ID center" calls for a comma, we would not say "Penn's ID Center, that is called CUPID."

    Another way to keep them straight is to imagine by the way following every which: "Penn's ID center, which (by the way) is called CUPID. . . ." The which adds a useful, but not grammatically necessary, piece of information. On the other hand, we wouldn't say "The word processor which (by the way) is used most often is WordPerfect," because the word processor on its own isn't enough information which word processor?

    A paradoxical mnemonic: use that to tell which, and which to tell that.

    This opinion would support Brians' choice of "which" over "that." I'm now outta here.
    Last edited by SadieKate; 01-27-2010 at 02:47 PM.
    Frends know gud humors when dey is hear it. ~ Da Crockydiles of ZZE.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by SadieKate View Post
    Hey, I didn't make that statement. Feel free to correct your quote . . .

    I didn't think it was you. I just didn't bother to put in a sub-quote (since you didn't ). Italics aren't preserved in auto-quote.

    It was part of our Law Journal's style manual. Let them call our faculty "quibbling self-styled grammar experts" if they like [I mean honestly, how is that rule any different from any of the ones we've been complaining about in eleven pages of this thread?], but I had not only to know the rule, but to apply it to manuscripts submitted by law professors.
    Last edited by OakLeaf; 01-27-2010 at 02:57 PM.
    Speed comes from what you put behind you. - Judi Ketteler

  8. #158
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    That would be because there is visual differentiation between regular and italic text, and included a link to the statement, in my post.
    Frends know gud humors when dey is hear it. ~ Da Crockydiles of ZZE.

  9. #159
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    That versus which is a style question. US publishers tend to prefer the distinction, whereas the Brits almost never do--they freely use which as both restrictive and nonrestrictive. I personally edit my authors following the that/which distinction based on my publishers' expressed preferences, but strictly speaking, which is grammatically correct.
    ~Jen
    2008 Trek Madone 5.1/compact double/Terry Butterfly
    My family's food and winemaking blog is www.flahertywines.com

  10. #160
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    "That" is used with a restrictive clause, "which" with a nonrestrictive clause. For that reason, it's important to use the correct word; therefore, it's not simply a matter of style, in my opinion.

  11. #161
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    Not to mention "that" as opposed to "who."
    "That" describes a thing, "who" a person.
    i.e. "Cancellara is the one who gets my heart racing."

    OBTW today I was watching last year's Ghent-Wevelgem race and Phil Liggett, who is the King of Malapropisms, said the peloton was going to have to "redress the situation." Maybe they could do that AFTER they address the situation.
    laurie

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  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by SadieKate View Post
    "Electric" was used as a noun into the last century. Perhaps you'd prefer not to have electrified washing machines, sewing machines, computers, etc.?

    Language evolution is a fascinating thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxxie View Post
    Yes, you are. Perhaps you'd prefer it if people phoned you instead?

    Max
    A living language is a wonderful thing, and I never claimed to be consistent with this

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by SadieKate View Post
    "Electric" was used as a noun into the last century.
    It's still used as a noun in Ohio. (And for all I know, in other parts of the country as well.)
    Speed comes from what you put behind you. - Judi Ketteler

  14. #164
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    email & sunburn

    Ok, i've been pondering this one for the past week & am now wondering if i'm out to lunch..

    Someone please tell me why I can't say "Please email the details to me or Please email the details"?
    Email can be a a verb..Email, emailing, emailed... If i'm incorrect, please provide numerous accurate sentences as examples.

    Next one is Sunburn. Can it be used in the folowing manner:" I ended up with a sunburn." ?? I could say " I'm sunburnt" but can I say " I'm sunburnt on my back"? Should one only say " My back is sunburnt"?

    Thank you..
    Last edited by crazycanuck; 01-30-2010 at 11:22 PM.

 

 

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