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  1. #1
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    Sodium Phosphate

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    Do any of you use this?

    It is recommended in Joe Friel's Training Bible...

    My partner and I have both "tested" it this last week to make sure it doesn't upset our stomachs. We both seem fine.

    We are going to try loading with it - the 3 day regimen (4 grams per day) in a week and a half just prior to a TT race in a couple of weeks.

    It is meant to help the haemoglobin release oxygen in the muscle, which effectively means that the muscles are able to operate at aerobically at higher speeds and power outputs than usual.

    Some studies have shown that it effectively raises the lactate threshold by up to 10%. The gains from Sodium Phosphate loading are supposedly still there after a week.

    What do you think?
    Do any of you use it?
    Is it effective or just a placebo?
    And to the purists out there... is this bordering on drug cheating?


    Courage does not always roar. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying,
    "I will try again tomorrow".


  2. #2
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    are you sure you want to do this?

    http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/safety/sodiumphospate.htm

  3. #3
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    I consulted my husband, who is a chemist, and in his non-medical opinion did not think taking sodium phosphate for this purpose was a good idea. Check with a doctor or pharmacist.
    Jennifer

    “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.”
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    -Aristotle

  4. #4
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    Is there something else you could do instead? A little extra sleep, a massage or two?

    Messing with the acid/base chemistry of your blood isn't going to help functional oxy much. Remember, if the hemoglobin is releasing oxy easily, it's equally poorly transporting oxygen. Like taking the shoelaces out of your shoes because it's so much easier to get them on and off then, but can you run well without shoelaces holding your shoes on?

    I have a fabulous host of neurological problems because my body screws up the acid-base balance of my blood all by itself. The thought that it takes a week or more for you to recover after dosing yourself with sodium phosphate is quite chilling.

    Trust me, you don't want what I've got. And yes, I think that could be considered cheating if it actually worked. And dangerous either way.
    Last edited by KnottedYet; 09-17-2006 at 06:11 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Why would you want to take additional sodium and phosphate?

    your diet probably contains enough sodium and phosphate and from a biochemical point of view, these are not required in the release of oxygen in the muscles. Can you provide a link to said study?

    Loading with a water soluble salt makes very little sense, as you will just excrete any excess.
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  6. #6
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    Thanks for your concern ladies.

    I am not too worried about it, as Friel recommends it as one of the "best kept secrets in cycling". In the same chapter he talks about other legal performance enhancers like caffiene (which many of us here at TE use). Every other bit of advice and observation of Friel's I (and other friends who have his books) have followed has been useful, sound and improved my fitness - both physical and mental.

    It is legal Knotted, but I was interested to see how many might think of it as cheating - for me the lines are thin. I use caffiene in races - I take it an hour before I will need it, as it is most effective an hour after being consumed. Is this different? I dont know. Its a performance enhancer and not naturally found in the body... should it be disallowed?

    Like creatine, found naturally, can be consumed naturally or over the counter? Is it bordering that thin line? You can eat huge quantities of red meat to load with it, or take it as a more convenient powder - the perception out there is that it "builds muscle" but many studies show that used judiciously it helps with recovery... a close friend has been using that as a powder and has found his muscles feel better and recover more quickly.

    I hear your concerns Knotted, and I am listening. I have followed how health impacts on several women here (including you). I appreciate your concerns.

    Alpine... Friel cites several studies in his little blurb about it. The link of Squirrel's is 5 years old - maybe I need to find some more specific recent studies - that link is about use for constipation, not sporting related.

    I will take your words under advisement and keep researching til next weeks "D-Day".

    I would be interested in any other opinions, links, critiques.

    If you don't wanna talk about it in public, please PM me.

    I am still considering doing this unless I can find compelling evidence to stay away. You gals seem to collectively see everything there is and I value your input and opinions.

    Thanks again for your responses thus far.

    ~R~


    Courage does not always roar. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying,
    "I will try again tomorrow".


  7. #7
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    The way I interpreted Squirrel's "are you sure you want to do this?" question was that if sodium phosphate can be used to relieve constipation, and you're not constipated, wouldn't that cause some diarrhea issues that are not all that easily handled while competing in a bike race?
    Last edited by divingbiker; 09-17-2006 at 03:03 PM.

  8. #8
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    RoadRaven, I would be really interested in the references you have regarding this supposed benefit of sodium phosphate.

    My only knowledge of the use of sodium phosphate in relation to oxygen diffusion comes from its use as a buffering agent when doing experiments on isolated muscle cells. If that is the basis this guy is claiming for the use of sodium phosphate as a supplement, then it is based on poor science and not only is it one of the best kept secrets in cycling, it is one of the best kept secrets in medical science.

  9. #9
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    DivingBiker (do you really? dive on the bike I mean? your nic conjures up some funny images... I'm guessing you "dive" down hillsides?) your post cracked me up - I hadn't read Squirrel's post that way - of course! That is an important consideration! It didn't seem to have that effect on either of us last week when we 'tested' it on our stomachs. Fingers (and legs?) crossed if we load next week with it.

    Matagi... I did a quick google search and found the following bits I will paste below. At the weekend, I'll type in what Friel says in his book along with the studies he refers to...
    Last edited by RoadRaven; 09-18-2006 at 11:10 AM.

  10. #10
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    Race Day Nutrition by Rich Strauss (March 2005)
    http://www.cruciblefitness.com/etips...-nutrition.htm
    http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/rac...ion-000682.php

    This article was in both these places. This excerpt below was taken from the sub-headed section called “Rich’s bag of Tricks”, he also outlines the nutrition intake (including sodium phosphate) for the week before an Ironman.

    Loading with sodium phosphate (PhosFuel). Sodium phosphate acts as an acid buffer, reduces the build up of lactic acid, and thus increases the body's tolerance for lactic acid. [It also enhances offloading of oxygen from hemoglobin to muscle tissue. – Jeff Roberts]
    Last edited by RoadRaven; 09-18-2006 at 11:11 AM.

  11. #11
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    Forn & Fitness Q & A page (May 2005)
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?...5/letters05-09

    Sodium phosphate
    Hey,
    Any thoughts about sodium phosphate loading prior to a few races per season? Joe Friel has a bit on it in the Cyclist's Training Bible and it's sold as 'Race Day Boost' by e-caps.com. I recently tried it, but it's hard to know if it really made any difference. I've read some of the research and it seems pretty equivocal, but I wondered if you had any thoughts.
    Steve Smith
    Steve,
    I have no idea where JF's loading regimen originates from as there is no research to substantiate his loading protocol (which, if I recall correctly, uses a very low dose every day). Although at first it appears that phosphate loading is equivocal, it appears that many or all of the studies that used tribasic sodium phosphate showed a significant ergogenic effect. Currently, we are unable to explain why it is only this phosphate that appears to work. In our study (Folland, Stern & Brickley, 2001, A, CJAP) (see http://cyclecoach.com/articles?artic...hates&ext=.htm) we found an ~8% increase in power output compared to a control and placebo trial.
    We used 4 x 1g/day for six days. This led to a reduction in time during a 10-mile TT of ~ 40-secs. Currently, no one has determined the exact mechanism which improves performance via phosphate loading (although there are a couple of hypothesis) and it hasn't definitely been determined that it always works.
    It's important to note that phosphate loading isn't for everyone, and in some people it can cause instantaneous vomiting or diarrhoea. With this in mind, and with all new supplements and sports drinks etc you should always try these out in training first and not directly prior to, or during a race. It is strictly recommended that phosphate is not taken on a regular basis. Some research suggests that it may cause calcium to be leached from the bones if consumed regularly. Current advice is to not take it more than four times per year.
    Last edited by RoadRaven; 09-18-2006 at 11:12 AM.

  12. #12
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    Comments from CyclingForums archive
    http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive...p/t-21498.html

    Duckwash said: sodium phosphate and sodium bicarb loading are both legal and work by buffering the lactic acid produced in your muscles

    if you plan on using sodium phosphate make sure you try it out a few weeks before an event because from memory you need fairly big doses and it might upset your stomach

    as for supply you can get it from some sports shops or look ub a lab supply place and buy analytical grade (might be pricey tho)



    Zaskar said: Here is more info on it, i just ordered some for a mountain TT i have this month. i want to knock off 1 min 15 secounds off my time i hope this helps!


    RACE DAY BOOST contains one of the most potent legal ergogenics available for competition. In the most extensive study to date on the key ingredient in RACE DAY BOOST, subjects in a 40K time trial netted a whopping 8% improvement in performance time! The simple formula belies its profound effectiveness, supplying your body with what it needs to increase cellular energy production and buffer performance-robbing lactic acid. When one of your most important races of the season is four days away, a loading dose of RACE DAY BOOST can make a remarkably noticeable difference in your race performance.


    Gooders said: when you buy it a fact sheet is provided on loading.

    from what I've read you can only use 3-4 times per year due to the potenial adverse affect calcium depletion caused by sodium phosphate. Might be beneficial to take a low dose mineral supplement during loading.

    Also I've found it did give me the trots the first time I used it. Since I now load over two weeks. The first week slowly introduce the phosphate - 1g x 1, then a days break, then 1g x 2, then a days break....etc until you are 1g x 4. Then load for 4 days.....some can tolerate it better than others though.

    hope this helps.


    Ric_stern said: I've read positive results about using a one off Sodium Citrate loading:

    Oopik et al. (2003) a 5km run 30" faster (2.5%) in runners completing the task in 19-mins.

    Potteiger et al. (1996) a 30km time trial was 103" faster (2.89%) in cyclists completing it in approx 59mins.

    McNaughton (1990) a 1-minute sprint had Peak power up 215w (20%) an total work up 8.5KJ (23%).


    Have you experience using this as an ergogenic aid and can it be combined with Sodium Phosphate.....or not really worth considering.

    thanks

    i have no experience with citrate loading

    ric
    Last edited by RoadRaven; 09-18-2006 at 11:13 AM.

  13. #13
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    And the last of these four eExcerpts - this is the oldest and is from 2000 and written by Joe Friel himself...

    ETips Newsletter, Vol3 No7 July 2000
    http://www.ultrafit.com/newsletter/july00.html


    How to Load with Sodium Phosphate
    Q: I was thinking of trying sodium phosphate, as you suggest in your book. But after buying some Twinlabs Phos Fuel I noticed that the bottle suggests loading for three days with four grams per day instead of your 19-day procedure. Today is the 19th day out from the first of two races that I would like to peak for. So I was just wondering about the discrepancy between your loading plan and Twin Lab's. - J.A.
    A: I'd suggest not using sodium phosphate if the race you're talking about is an A-priority. It should be tried in training or before a C-priority race first. It could be that you don't handle it very well and this might lead to a poor race. When it comes to tolerance of dietary supplements there is a lot of individual variance. In regards to how to use it, I've found that many athletes have upset stomachs when using sodium phosphate so that's why I recommended the longer loading period in my book. If it doesn't cause an upset stomach then the shorter loading period as described on the label is fine. But you need to discover this in training early in the season. - Joe Friel
    Last edited by RoadRaven; 09-18-2006 at 11:14 AM.

  14. #14
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    whoops... meant to add...

    BikingMom... I have checked with 3 chemists, the health shop and a doctor.

    Doctor hadn't heard of it, chemists hadn't heard of it, health shop had a little info and was interested as she has a few cyclists through so I photocopied Joe Friel's bits for her and have said I will go in after race and let her know how/if it worked.

    I am going to email a couple of the health fitness lecturers at work today, and see if they have heard of it and what they think...
    Last edited by RoadRaven; 09-18-2006 at 11:15 AM.

  15. #15
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    I copied your question over to RBR, here's what the guys say:

    http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=73512

 

 

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