growing up.. rambling

[Eden]

Scumbags aren't limited to the carefree, childless types.... lots appear to be good solid family men from the outside....

[tulip]

BTW any married person with young children who engages in high risk sports is to me, an idiot. That person thinks so little of his/her family that for a little bit of pleasure they are willing to risk the families viability. Stupid, just stupid.

Or who drives...

[indysteel]

Probably related to what Irulan said is an unfolding scandal in Volusia County (Daytona Beach) Beach Patrol, where male career lifeguards in their 30s and 40s preyed on female lifeguards and sunbathers in their late teens, without regard for whether they were work subordinates, or legally of age to consent.

There is a phenomenon, no doubt, but I'm not sure from what lph said that her paper's article describes it.

Just to be devil's advocate, again, that male immaturity isn't necessarily victimless.

Agreed, which is why I said I didn't have a problem with it UNLESS it did somebody else harm. That said, I'm not sure "male immaturity" fully explains what happened in Daytona. Those men are pigs.

[indysteel]

Or who drives...

or rides a bike.

Honestly, I'm hesitant to make TOO many generalizations when it comes to this topic. It's posssible to be a responsible ski instructor and to be an extremely irresponsible Wall Street banker or school board member. There are a lot of variables that go into how productive, mature and responsible we are as people.

[GLC1968]

I agree with most of what has been said here and when I read LPH's original post, I admit to bristling to the descriptions right along with her.

I didn't get married until I was 35 and even then, I only did it because I found a man whom I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. It had nothing to do with wanting to build a family or 'grow up'. In fact, by the author's definition, I'm sure we are not really grown ups. We don't have kids. We change careers all the time (not just me!), we moved across the country on a whim, he climbs mountains, I do triathlons, we both cycle, eat unhealthy foods, etc...

On the flip side, we are both educated and hold good jobs, we own a house, we have purchased life insurance, we have no cc debt and we have 25+ animals that depend on us for their lives...if that's not responsible and 'grown up', I'm not sure what is.

That said, I'm not sure I know what it feels like to be grown up. I hope I never do.

Indysteel - I agree with your thoughts about if commitentment phobes or whomever actually need to grow up. As long as they are not a drain on anyone else or on society as a whole, then why does it matter how they choose to spend their lives?

[rubywagon]

BTW any married person with young children who engages in high risk sports is to me, an idiot. That person thinks so little of his/her family that for a little bit of pleasure they are willing to risk the families viability. Stupid, just stupid.

I am not sure how to reply to this, but I think you just called me an idiot. And stupid.

[bcipam]

I am not sure how to reply to this, but I think you just called me an idiot. And stupid.

Sorry I don't know you - are you a professional skydriver? Or Bungee Jumper? or Motocross rider? I did say high risk - I don't consider bicycling a HIGH risk sport...

that said if you have a husband and small children then yes I think it foolish you risk your life for pleasure... just my opinion.

edited to add: If you engage in sports such as free riding--- mountain biking off cliff faces, then I would consider that high risk.

[rubywagon]

Ha. Okay.

[Crankin]

The whole article just reeks of ageism. It made me bristle. If someone wants to be an immature, risk taker, who cares? I've known people like this (men and women) and as long as they don't affect anyone else, it doesn't bother me.
I think, generally, if you lead a lifestyle that is any little bit non-conventional, many people think you are immature or just plain weird. I may have the house in a nice suburb, etc., but I did it all in a somewhat unconventional way. I got married after knowing my DH for 6 months, I've had lots of jobs, and we moved across the country, giving up 2 good jobs and a beautiful house because we wanted our kids to have a certain lifestyle/cultural values. Did people have trouble with this? Oh yeah. And DH being a house husband while I worked? Not too common in 1982/3.
You know, people didn't think it was weird when I spent all my time at the gym, teaching aerobics. Or, when DH and DS started riding. But, when I started riding and all the other stuff I do, that was weird.

[Cataboo]

Unfortunately a lot of these guys die with young children... Shane Mckonkey, whoever it was that died in that storm on everest however many years ago who got to use his satellite phone to talk to his wife & 6 month old child.

That always infuriates me.

Just to play devil's advocate: But for whose benefit do they need to grow up? I have no real issue with men or women who essentially just live for themselves, so long as they don't otherwise have a responsibility for/to anybody else, i.e., a spouse or child, or do anybody else any real harm. Now I may not choose to associate much with them, but that doesn't mean they're in the wrong.

Maybe it's a function of what I do and where I live, but I know very few people of the ski-bum variety. Instead, I know a lot of workaholic (mostly) men, who use their jobs as a way to avoid being a full-time spouse or parent. To me, that's not particularly grown up either, although it is a lot more socially acceptable. For me, it's all about living honestly. If you're a commitment phobe, then don't get married under the pretense that you are committed. If you really don't want to parent, then don't have children. If you want to live for yourself, then don't make anybody else dependent on your income, your time or your focus. If you don't want to work hard enough to make decent money, then fine, but don't mooch off of anybody else.

[bcipam]

Unfortunately a lot of these guys die with young children... Shane Mckonkey, whoever it was that died in that storm on everest however many years ago who got to use his satellite phone to talk to his wife & 6 month old child.

That always infuriates me.

Perfect example of what I was speaking about... I realize the man who lost his life made a living leading teams up Everest but maybe he should have waited to get married and have children... but to each their own.

[mudmucker]

I think, generally, if you lead a lifestyle that is any little bit non-conventional, many people think you are immature or just plain weird. I may have the house in a nice suburb, etc., but I did it all in a somewhat unconventional way. I got married after knowing my DH for 6 months, I've had lots of jobs, and we moved across the country, giving up 2 good jobs and a beautiful house because we wanted our kids to have a certain lifestyle/cultural values. Did people have trouble with this? Oh yeah. And DH being a house husband while I worked? Not too common in 1982/3.
You know, people didn't think it was weird when I spent all my time at the gym, teaching aerobics. Or, when DH and DS started riding. But, when I started riding and all the other stuff I do, that was weird.

I disagree about the leading a lifestyle/little bit non-conventional part and people thinking you are immature or weird. It's relative to our experiences and exposures for sure. I grew up in Western MA where my exposure to lifestyle options and choices span the gamut and not viewed unfavorably. What you consider to have done in a non-conventional way would be viewed as quite conventional and even main-stream based on my point of view and what I've seen around me in my younger years. And we are not far off in ages. Really, none of it is really that weird or unconventional at all.

[Mr. Bloom]

Agreed, which is why I said I didn't have a problem with it UNLESS it did somebody else harm. That said, I'm not sure "male immaturity" fully explains what happened in Daytona. Those men are pigs.

I agree that it's not a maturity issue, that's a function of not knowing appropriate limits...and knowing appropriate limits is not a function of age as much as it is upbringing and/or social environment (or borderline personality traits).

...and it's not a uniquely "male" issue...Mary Kay Letourneau might be a case in point of one not knowing proper limits with her 14 yr old student/lover.

[Crankin]

Mudmucker, I've also been exposed to lots of lifestyles (after all, I did grow up in the 60's), but moving away from the east coast, that kind of went out of the window. That's why I wanted to move back... AZ is very conservative, and while my own friends weren't, the whole atmosphere really bothered me. I know my lifestyle isn't weird, but in my social/cultural group, it was. No one else worked when their kids were little, even though they all were highly educated. My DH was considered "unique." When my friends started flying to LA to buy jewelry, that was it. I had to leave.
In general, I've always wanted to do things a little differently, and guess what? Both of my kids are just like me!

[mudmucker]

Mudmucker, I've also been exposed to lots of lifestyles (after all, I did grow up in the 60's), but moving away from the east coast, that kind of went out of the window. That's why I wanted to move back... AZ is very conservative, and while my own friends weren't, the whole atmosphere really bothered me. I know my lifestyle isn't weird, but in my social/cultural group, it was. No one else worked when their kids were little, even though they all were highly educated. My DH was considered "unique." When my friends started flying to LA to buy jewelry, that was it. I had to leave.
In general, I've always wanted to do things a little differently, and guess what? Both of my kids are just like me!

Yes, regional differences. I find that even in a small "liberal" micro-region such as MA, having lived in both. There are big differences between the western and eastern part of the state in terms of attitudes and personal life choices, as little territory that we are. Bravo to you for bucking the trend. Live and let live.