OT: Slob

[Kyna]

I don't know if it will work for you, but this has worked well for my boyfriend and I.

I said when I moved in I that I can be a bit of a clean freak, and that my expectations might differ from his and I hoped we could work something out. So from the begining I let him know what my expectations are. His response was "I can be a bit of a clutter, but as long as you give me 1 room that I can have my way, I will make an effort on the rest".

And by truth its worked great. We each have our little "area" that can be cluttered (his the study, mine my clothes in a corner of the bedroom), yet the main traffic areas are pretty decent, and it all makes it much easier to hide/clean when company comes.

Guys hate a "bait and switch" by over-tolerating until it becomes too much, or the feeling they have to change 100% to accomidate. Try a compromise? Give him an area he can get messy with that you will accept, in exchance for areas that he must make a better effort to keep clean for your sanity. Once he realizes he doesn't have to completely change who he is to make you happy I think you'll both be sleepin better.

Make it clear that his efforts make you happier, and not just "well its about darn time", because there is no positive feedback there. If anything its a backhanded compliment if that, and thats in no way encouraging. I find my guy will do just about anything if he thinks the reward is worth it.. and ultimately guys want us happy to make them feel successful in the relationship, no? Start little, baby steps, cleanliness is a habit, not a personality trait. Start with having him help you, involve him... make it fun, make it playful.. make him realize that helping you is rewarding to both of you. Granted you can't make people do 180's but change IS possible. Like someone said, people *grow* in relationship, just gotta make sure its in the right direction.

Good luck!

[doc]

Make it clear that his efforts make you happier, and not just "well its about darn time", because there is no positive feedback there. If anything its a backhanded compliment if that, and thats in no way encouraging. I find my guy will do just about anything if he thinks the reward is worth it.. and ultimately guys want us happy to make them feel successful in the relationship, no? Start little, baby steps, cleanliness is a habit, not a personality trait. Start with having him help you, involve him... make it fun, make it playful.. make him realize that helping you is rewarding to both of you. Granted you can't make people do 180's but change IS possible. Like someone said, people *grow* in relationship, just gotta make sure its in the right direction.
Good luck!

So much good advice already. I do have to agree with Queen and strongly disagree with bicam but...

Now that you've vented in the right place, a few points.
1 You already know yelling doesn't work. Neither does withholding. Withholding love or speech or anything else always ultimately backfires and pushes your partner away.
2 Of course people can change. They do all the time. The way to help a partner change in a positive direction is with specific instruction. Saying "help me clean up" is not useful. You are more likely to succeed with I statements with clear instructions. Such as "I would feel appreciated and happy and not taken for granted if you would put all of your dirty clothes in the hamper as soon as you take them off". Then when he does it he must get rewarded. This truly works. Remember to use small steps. Real specific easy instructions.
3 I've said it before, but I recommend "imago" to deal with relationship issues. A therapist or a weekend seminar is better but you can start with just the book. The book is called "getting the love you want" by harville hendricks. Some of it is goofy, but retraining yourself to ask for what you need in a polite and respectful way, including why you need it and how it would make you feel, followed by clear gratitude when it is done is the way to go. Everybody has annoying habits. You should also encourage him to tell you the things he's been "ignoring" about you. You probably don't even know what they are and how important they are to him.

Good luck

[sydney_b]

Following on from Sydney B...

if you're going to delegate/share you can't in all fairness then turn round and criticise the way it's been done. So you will have to accept that the job has been done even if you're less than happy with the result. (Within reason)

This is definitely the truth. But, I've been able to adjust, although sometimes I do sneak an extra wipe behind the kitchen spigots when he's not looking.

True for the boys (11,12, & 16) as well. E.g. When they help fold clothes, it's rarely the way I would do it, but they're trying and I just keep my mouth shut.

[Trekhawk]

This is definitely the truth. But, I've been able to adjust, although sometimes I do sneak an extra wipe behind the kitchen spigots when he's not looking.

True for the boys (11,12, & 16) as well. E.g. When they help fold clothes, it's rarely the way I would do it, but they're trying and I just keep my mouth shut.

LOL - I have three boys (4, 6, 8) and when they make their beds its a sight to behold. I normally just shut the door so I dont feel the urge to go and remake them.

[bcipam]

Mmmmmmm, I'm confused as to why my advice is not reasonable. I don't disagree people can change, if they want to, but I'm assuming (and forgive me if this course has not been taken) that all the discussions have already taken place and now the frustration is there is no change.

Listen, I appreciate all of you women trying to help your "boys" grow up and take responsibility. But it is alot of work. Making lists, sorting piles, constantly nagging, that's really no fun is it? I just don't have the patience. I expect my man to be all grown up before we make any commitment.

Yes, the good should be weighed with the bad (and I said that previously). In a relationship I tend to be the neat freak and I can't expect everyone to be that way so, I don't nag, I just clean. My partner does all sort of other things for me like fixing things, doing the heavy chores etc. But if he just sat around on his butt expecting me to do everything, then he would be set out on the curb. How is there any good in that relationship? That obviosuly shows a lack of respect for the relationship.

Nothing wrong in venting but I didn't take the post as just venting. I apologize if no advice was asked for. I obviously misunderstood.

Sometimes, a person needs to realize a mistake was made and instead of trying to fix the mistake, it is better to stop the bleed, cut the loss and move on. Is there a real problem with this recommendation?

[bcipam]

Somehow Dr. Laura forgot to read her own book!

Have you read the book? I wonder why you say that?

I understand alot of folks don't like Dr Laura because she seems to be harsh sometimes. I am alot like her. I like to tell it like it is. Life's too short to not be direct. The truth can be harsh and sometimes you need a slap in the face in order to wake up and make the right decision.

I can say, you just write notes and tell him you love him but he needs to pick up his stuff, or I can say let's pin notes around the room with little hearts all over them to tell him to pick up his stuff and listing chores he should do, but if I were him, I would get pissed and purposely do nothing, so what was accomplished?

And back to Dr. Laura, none of us is a perfect person. We have all made mistakes in our life. Lord knows, as I was growing up and even now, I make terrible mistakes. It doesn't mean Dr. Laura (or I) cannot provide meaningful and insightful advice. And you can choose to ignore my advice, not critize it. It was intended to be helpful not hurtful. But we all have to take personal responsibility - if he is the wrong man, whose responsibity is that?

[Hell-uv-a-job]

I understand alot of folks don't like Dr Laura because she seems to be harsh sometimes.

Dr Laura is not harsh, just intolerant. Not a good quality in a "doctor".

[SadieKate]

That's it in a nutshell - it's a give and take.

And you can choose to ignore my advice, not critize it.

Through the wonderful world of the internet it is difficult to understand sometimes, but the tone of your words is that you are expecting everyone to take what you say and agree without question. I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound like anyone on the Forum personally knows betagirl and her BF. All we can really do is commiserate and offer suggestions since we don't have firsthand knowledge. Frequently, the person must develop his or her own solutions using a conglomeration of many persons' ideas. Sometimes friends just need to listen.

[bcipam]

Dr Laura is not harsh, just intolerant. Not a good quality in a "doctor".

I would say you haven't really either listened to her or read her books. It's your perception I'm assuming from other sources she is intolerate. Everyone is intolerate in their own way. But we are all entitled. I personally would not tolerate people who abuse children. Is that wrong?

Also she is a doctor of physiology. She does not hold herself as a psychologist. She admits she does not counsel but that she expresses her own views, as do we all. You can choose to listen or not. I don't always agree with what she has to say but generally, she is right on the mark.

I do suggest you read her book. Then let's talk...

[bcipam]

Through the wonderful world of the internet it is difficult to understand sometimes, but the tone of your words is that you are expecting everyone to take what you say and agree without question. I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound like anyone on the Forum personally knows betagirl and her BF. All we can really do is commiserate and offer suggestions since we don't have firsthand knowledge. Frequently, the person must develop his or her own solutions using a conglomeration of many persons' ideas. Sometimes friends just need to listen.

No of course, I am only expressing my own views. And you are right - Betagirl should weigh all issues and make her own decisions. I only know what she said in her initial post and don't know the whole story. If anything I have said hits home, I hope she understands the context in which the advice was given. It either applies or it doesn't.

[Hell-uv-a-job]

I would say you haven't really either listened to her or read her books. I do suggest you read her book. Then let's talk...

Oh boy...

[bcipam]

No honestly I would read it... it has alot of good insight into relationships whether man-woman, woman-woman or man-man. Its always good to understand where our partners are coming from!

[abuelitodimetu]

I wonder what kind of advice she has to give homosexual couples, given that she seems to have deep-seated views against homosexuality.
I honestly think Dr. Laura has a view of men and women out of the Jurassic era:

"The women who criticize their husbands in the stories that Schlessinger relates are depressed in their marriages and feel little love from their husbands. Unabashedly asserting that man is a "very simple creature," who needs only "direct communication, respect, appreciation, food, and good loving'" to respond with devotion, compassion and love, this controversial marriage and family therapist claims that every woman can achieve a deeply satisfying marriage if she adheres to certain fundamentals men require. Preparing dinner, caring for the children without complaint, greeting her husband with a kiss and engaging in sexual intimacy instead of "tearing down a husband's necessary sense of strength and importance" can result in the harmonious marriage women crave.

In short, spread your legs and keep his stomach full. I'm sorry, her understanding of both men and women are demeaning to humankind. As women in the twenty first century, we owe many of our freedoms to past generations of women who stood up for themselves and fought against "men's sense of self-importance." If it weren't for those women, I would not have many of the choices I have and because of that, I remind Dr. Laura that well-behaved women rarely made history

[betagirl]

Wow, thanks everyone. This thread really took off

Ok first off, we are in no shape or form on the verge of breaking up over this crap. I was venting, though I did ask for advice on how to help a guy figure out how to not be such a slob.

bcipam, I appreciate your advice but it's not really applicable. And well, I'd never buy or read a Dr. Laura book. My mother would listen to her on the radio and I'd just sit and listen to her and scratch my head. I classify her a few levels below Dr. Phil, who's an embarassment to most of the people in the field of Psychology.

So after my big meltdown, which I agree that was brought on by stress, we had a talk the next morning. I think when I get under too much I have a harder time overlooking his messy ways. Anyway, I think he understood a little how upset it made me that he was ignoring/blowing off/whatever you want to call it my reaction to his messiness. You're right, we've lived together a long time and I know this is how he is. But on the flip side, he knows how I am so we need to compromise. And yes, this is a stupid thing to fight over - which I brought up. When I came home that night, the crap all over the counter was picked up and replaced with some flowers.

Anyway, thanks again for letting me vent. And for the tips. He'll "behave" for a while but I fully expect him to lapse. So I'll keep those in my back pocket for next time.

[carimail]

Well, we didn't want to tell you this, but we all chipped in and bought you the flowers...after we all got together and had a cheerful coffee with a friendly debate over the pros and cons of Dr. Laura and her books. Now we are all happy!!