Ranting about stupid dog ownership

[MartianDestiny]

... you can look at the links I posted which do link to independent studies of what effect cats have on the native wildlife and cats do contribute to the decline in bird populations...

Ok, I looked at all three links. NONE of them show a scientific study and NONE of them cite their sources. I'm sorry, but I'm a trained scientist and these articles might as well be pulling numbers out of their rear-ends as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not convinced they are independent (I'm inclined to think they are all "quoting" Kress and not giving him credit, but I could be wrong of course.)

The link to Steve Kress' article in the Audubon magazine is the most credible being that he does have a PhD in Environmental Studies (I had to go dig for that info). But, he should know better. There's no mention of how he came to the number of deaths from cats (but he did say how he got to the number of cats in the US and how he got to the number of window/glass deaths...). I'd loose my job and get kicked out of grad school if I tried to pass off something like that as scientific (and honestly he probably wasn't trying to, but he should cite or link to the scientific work as well). The info would never get through a peer reviewed journal like that, but unfortunately he's a scientist so it's automatically credible to the public even when it's not credible. IMO, that's an abuse of the trust put into scientists and it makes me ill. (I'll resend that last statement if he in fact has published a peer reviewed scientific work with his data on this).

In the end I'm not arguing that cats do not contribute at all. And in fact I agree with you that the vast majority of cats should be kept indoors and confined when outdoors.

In fact here's a scientific article that actually agrees with your point, ranking cats as potentially equal to glass strikes in deaths (however, they still don't cite or explain the data behind cat deaths (at least in the intro where it is mentioned)...so I still don't "trust" the information, though I'm more inclined to believe it's plausible):
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/biol...ent%202004.pdf

[Selkie]

My golden retrievers catch and kill birds. I've caught them in the act. True to their nature, I guess, as goldens are "huntin' dogs!" But they don't bite humans....

Ironically, the next door neighbor has a virtual bird sanctuary in their backyard but no shrubs/trees for bird roosting. So they come to our yard (shurbs galore and a huge old oak). This neighbor has an indoor cat--guess all the feeders are for his entertainment. Well, in addition to our dogs taking out these birds, several free-roaming neighborhood pet (not feral) felines kill them.

I may have inadvertently saved a cat this morning when I was riding my bike. My headlight scared off a fox, who was stealthily heading in a cat's direction.

[Aggie_Ama]

My in-laws black lab kills birds, snakes (good doggie they are taking the chicken eggs), possums, squirrels, he is such a hunter we won't bring our 9 lb schnauzer over. Their cat just watches the birds. We have a bird bath which has become the neighborhood cat napping place but I have yet to see the cats win. I have seen the martens attack the cats though.

[Deborajen]

You know, with all the threads on this forum about pets - showing off our pets, sharing stories, grieving for lost pets - I'm really disappointed and some of the downright hateful remarks on this thread.

As far as stupid/obnoxious pet behavior always being tracked back to a human? My neighbor's Rottweiler snapped at a few of the neighbor kids. The reason? His brain had grown too big for his skull, and he was in awful pain. The neighbors put him to sleep. I'm sure they, or others in a similar position, would love to have their noses rubbed in it.

Although my cats have never been outside to kill a bird, for play or for food, they can kill all the mice in the house that they want - I don't care if it's just for sport.

Back to the OP, Dogmama, try not to be too hard on your friend. It's probably best that she took Joey back soon. It's probably best that she not have a shelter pet at all. Poor Joey is probably scared to death. No wonder he barked at all the dogs at the vet's office - He's been bounced around. Who knows what all he's been through? And the vet's office probably smelled like the shelter and was a nightmare for him. But my heart aches for Joey. I hope he finds someone who can give him the extra love he needs.

And I'm extra sensitive right now. On Saturday, our beloved Siberian Husky, Leia, went over the rainbow bridge. We had to have her put to sleep, and my heart is broken into a million pieces right now. We don't know if she suffered more than she let us know or if it happened suddenly and mercifully.

Lighten up, people.

[OakLeaf]

((((((((Deborajen & family))))))))

I'm so sorry for your loss. Give yourself permission to grieve, knowing that in time the happy memories will outweigh your present pain.

[salsabike]

You know, with all the threads on this forum about pets - showing off our pets, sharing stories, grieving for lost pets - I'm really disappointed and some of the downright hateful remarks on this thread.

As far as stupid/obnoxious pet behavior always being tracked back to a human? My neighbor's Rottweiler snapped at a few of the neighbor kids. The reason? His brain had grown too big for his skull, and he was in awful pain. The neighbors put him to sleep. I'm sure they, or others in a similar position, would love to have their noses rubbed in it.

Although my cats have never been outside to kill a bird, for play or for food, they can kill all the mice in the house that they want - I don't care if it's just for sport.

Back to the OP, Dogmama, try not to be too hard on your friend. It's probably best that she took Joey back soon. It's probably best that she not have a shelter pet at all. Poor Joey is probably scared to death. No wonder he barked at all the dogs at the vet's office - He's been bounced around. Who knows what all he's been through? And the vet's office probably smelled like the shelter and was a nightmare for him. But my heart aches for Joey. I hope he finds someone who can give him the extra love he needs.

And I'm extra sensitive right now. On Saturday, our beloved Siberian Husky, Leia, went over the rainbow bridge. We had to have her put to sleep, and my heart is broken into a million pieces right now. We don't know if she suffered more than she let us know or if it happened suddenly and mercifully.

Lighten up, people.

Thanks for all of this post, Deborajen. And I'm very sorry about Leia. It's such hard stuff.

[badger]

Firstly, I'm sor sorry to hear about Leia. It's always so so hard to say goodbye.

****

I've sat back and watched the thread morph into something rather nasty, and I'm actually quite sad about it. It always catches me by surprise when I find certain people that I had respect for say rather crude and pointed remarks.

We're so quick to judge other species or certain breeds doing bad things when all we have to do is look at the human race and see all the damage we've done to the planet and all things on it. WE created the pit bull, WE created domesticated cats. WE destroy habitats. WE've made animals and plants extinct.

We shouldn't take one brush and paint one particular breed or species the same colour. Every animal and plant is unique and while there are similarities, they are not all the same.

I don't think there's ever going to be an argument or a line of thought that everyone agrees to. And everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but it just shocks me to see some people who I had respect for make outright comments that really aren't warranted.

[PamNY]

Deborajen, I'm so sorry you lost Leia. It's always hard to lose a family member.

I don't think this thread is so terrible. In my bulldog group the co-moderator calls them "spirited discussions" (even when she's shutting them down) and I think that's a good description.

Whether negative or positive, relationships with animals arouse strong feelings, and that's just reality. I enjoyed reading the discussion about outdoor cats, and I like reading dog breed-specific discussions because I want to know what people think, even if I don't agree with them. As I mentioned upthread, I do think keeping discussions constructive is better because it's more educational, but it's not realistic to expect that all the time.

I have been thinking a lot lately about what humans do to birds. I've been watching a red-tailed hawk nest which started with three babies. The nest is in a park bisected by a busy highway, and the juvenile hawks don't yet fly high enough to be 100% safe crossing the highway. Some of my fellow hawk watchers have been frantically trying to get "slow" signs put up on the highway, and more enforcement of the speed limit. Heartbroken as I am over the loss of the two beautiful youngsters, I think those responses are just an emotional desire to "fix" something that can't be fixed. If red-tails nest in New York City, they are going to face risks, just as they would in the woods.

[Cataboo]

Ok, I looked at all three links. NONE of them show a scientific study and NONE of them cite their sources. I'm sorry, but I'm a trained scientist and these articles might as well be pulling numbers out of their rear-ends as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not convinced they are independent (I'm inclined to think they are all "quoting" Kress and not giving him credit, but I could be wrong of course.)

The link to Steve Kress' article in the Audubon magazine is the most credible being that he does have a PhD in Environmental Studies (I had to go dig for that info). But, he should know better. There's no mention of how he came to the number of deaths from cats (but he did say how he got to the number of cats in the US and how he got to the number of window/glass deaths...). I'd loose my job and get kicked out of grad school if I tried to pass off something like that as scientific (and honestly he probably wasn't trying to, but he should cite or link to the scientific work as well). The info would never get through a peer reviewed journal like that, but unfortunately he's a scientist so it's automatically credible to the public even when it's not credible. IMO, that's an abuse of the trust put into scientists and it makes me ill. (I'll resend that last statement if he in fact has published a peer reviewed scientific work with his data on this).

In the end I'm not arguing that cats do not contribute at all. And in fact I agree with you that the vast majority of cats should be kept indoors and confined when outdoors.

In fact here's a scientific article that actually agrees with your point, ranking cats as potentially equal to glass strikes in deaths (however, they still don't cite or explain the data behind cat deaths (at least in the intro where it is mentioned)...so I still don't "trust" the information, though I'm more inclined to believe it's plausible):
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/biol...ent%202004.pdf

Since I was loo lazy to look up actual primary references way back when, and I just ran across this article reading the news today:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../400563a0.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/sc...nted=1&_r=1&em

[crazycanuck]

We've just started searching for a new friend for our lovely doggie & am heartbroken each time i visit a few of the dog refuge websites. I want to bring all of the doggies home but we don't have a big enough house/yard.

I really do wish humans would treat thier animals much better than they do . There was one good woman mentioned on one of the sites-she had the heart to give her fluffy friend to a refuge as it was being beaten by her partner .

[tulip]

Last week, when I was walking my dog, I noticed a couple of teenage girls walking a pitbull puppy. I didn't take much notice because there are lots of people who walk dogs in my neighborhood.

A few hours later, I heard this sad howling out back in the alley. I thought that my neighbors across the alley had gotten a puppy or something. I went out to take a peek, and that same pitbull puppy was tied up to my back fence. The girls had left her there. I like to think they figured I was a good bet to take care of the dog.

She was mangey and skinny and very hungry. And very sweet and cute. A friend down the street and I got it to a PB rescue org. She'll be adopted in no time, they said, because she's sweet and a puppy.

[sfa]

When we were in NYC last weekend, DD and I saw a ghost bike on the street and I explained to her what it was and why it was there.

This morning she came up to me and told me she wanted to start a "ghost dog collar" program to memorialize dogs who are hit by cars, to remind people to take good care of their pets.

[Norse]

A friend down the street and I got it to a PB rescue org. She'll be adopted in no time, they said, because she's sweet and a puppy.

Good for you tulip! Our humane society doggy rescue is a black lab/border collie mix. We got her when she was 2 and the agency said she had been dropped off in the middle of the night by a family. My thought is that family just wanted cute, adorable puppy and had no clue what to do with a full grown 55 lb. dog. Some people should not be allowed to have pets any more than they should be allowed to have children.

[Trek420]

Last week, when I was walking my dog, I noticed a couple of teenage girls walking a pitbull puppy. I didn't take much notice because there are lots of people who walk dogs in my neighborhood.

A few hours later, I heard this sad howling out back in the alley. I thought that my neighbors across the alley had gotten a puppy or something. I went out to take a peek, and that same pitbull puppy was tied up to my back fence. The girls had left her there. I like to think they figured I was a good bet to take care of the dog.

She was mangey and skinny and very hungry. And very sweet and cute. A friend down the street and I got it to a PB rescue org. She'll be adopted in no time, they said, because she's sweet and a puppy.

Good for you! You seem to be right there when a doggie needs rescue.

[MartianDestiny]

Since I was loo lazy to look up actual primary references way back when, and I just ran across this article reading the news today:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../400563a0.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/sc...nted=1&_r=1&em

Those articles state that cats are a problem, which I don't doubt, I still doubt the initial assertion that their damage is greater than all other sources combined.

The NYTimes article is of course not peer reviewed and contains outright falsehoods and ridiculous emotional arguments to boot. At least they link to a real paper; of course the problem with "Letters to Nature" is you really can't accurately describe your research in a mere 2 pages, though the short articles do have some usefulness.