Training for Time Trials

[RoadRaven]

Yup... I'm like Eden... try and lurk at or above my LT.

Typical HR pattern in a TT as follows...

In a TT I usually leave with such a rush of adrenilin that my HR seems to spike up to about 168-175 which is approaching my max, but after about 500 metres it settles and I then I wind myself up til it is sitting on 156-158bpm
158bpm is my lactate threshold as measured in a sports lab in 2007.

At the turn-around, or the half-way point in distance, I wind myself up more. I know I can sustain a good power output several beats above my LT for about 10km or 18mins and if my body is responding well I try to keep my HR at 162-165 for the last half of the course.

In the last 2kms I try to lift the speed/power output more and my HR often sits at about 168bpm for the last 1km of the ride - thats 10beats above my LT.

My distances for TT are between 18km and 25km long. 18-20km TTs are ideal for me, but I am still having trouble pacing myself over 25km... that extra 5km makes a significant difference.

[Starfish]

So, RR, you had your LT tested in a lab...how about the rest of you?

I feel very sketchy about setting my zones. I tend to use a combination of percentages I have read about it training books, the number I see on the monitor during really hard efforts when I'm gasping for breath (which I assume to be near my max), and sort of a perception of where I am regarding HR when I do rides that leave me pretty sore after.

Have any of you in Seattle been tested, and if so, where?

Is LT the same regardless of type of exertion...such as flat TT vs. climbing?

I feel like I am always guessing about to set my HRs. This has been bugging me for awhile.

[Eden]

So, RR, you had your LT tested in a lab...how about the rest of you?

I feel very sketchy about setting my zones. I tend to use a combination of percentages I have read about it training books, the number I see on the monitor during really hard efforts when I'm gasping for breath (which I assume to be near my max), and sort of a perception of where I am regarding HR when I do rides that leave me pretty sore after.

Have any of you in Seattle been tested, and if so, where?

Is LT the same regardless of type of exertion...such as flat TT vs. climbing?

I feel like I am always guessing about to set my HRs. This has been bugging me for awhile.

I have been tested. (at Real Rehab http://www.realrehab.com/pages/servi....php#metabolic) I was though, not particularly suprised at what my LT is, as I had been racing for a year before I did the testing and I knew what type of output I could sustain for longer periods without burning myself out completely (which basically is your LT) What I had been naturally TT'ing at was my LT.

I think you may be underestimating your max. VT (ventilatory theshold - when you start gasping) can have nothing to do with LT or Max HR. I reach my VT (breathing hard enough that I cannot talk in full sentences) somewhere in my hr zone 4 - probably around 85% of my max and have definitly hit it at 90% of max. I don't think you nessessarily need to have a whole fancy VO2 test just to get your max hr though - there are self tests you can do on a trainer. I don't have the time to look it up right now, but I have a book with a good test in it (I got an accurate measurment from this). When I get back this afternoon I'll look it up for you. When you really hit your max, you'll probably know - you'll want to fall over or throw up.... The test I have is a bit more gentle - it's a submaximal test, but it still works.

I personaly do find that I can hold a higher hr on a hillclimb TT than on a flat one - typically 5-7 hr beats higher.

[mudmucker]

Starfish, I also have a couple of self-tests. PM me if you want me to send them to you. The ones I have are from Chris Carmichaels's Food for Fitness book. With his method, he has the person do some specific high intensity cycling (or running) sequences and uses average heart rate to determine heart rate intensities that correspond to training different energy systems. He uses AHR because they're indicative of a true response to the entire duration of the effort.

If Eden has seen this one, she may be able make more of a comment on as a comparison of other self-tests.

[Starfish]

Thanks, you two. I actually have the Carmichael book The Ultimate Ride, and he describes doing 2 x 8 minute (or 3 mile) efforts and taking the average of those two...using that rather than actual max HR. I did that one a year or two ago, and I always wondered if I was using a high enough number for setting my zones.

I mention the gasping part because I seem to have a tough time, either on the trainer or in spin class, pushing myself to what I think my actual max might be. Whereas when I am out on the bike on a really hard, steep hill, it is all I can do to keep from falling over and it seems like my lungs will just burst if I keep trying to get more air in.

I'm feeling very insecure about my HRs and setting the zones. Sometimes I feel like I'm working too hard for a given workout, and others I doubt that I'm working hard enough.

Thanks for your help.

[mudmucker]

He calls it the CTS (Carmichael Training System) field test and I'm sure it's the same. Yes it's 2x8's or a 3-mile and taking the average. He says (from empirical data) that this average is usually just slightly above lactate threshold and claims it is very close to a person's lab tested lactate threshold. The information in your book is probably similar. What I like about the Food for Fitness book is that he explains how to eat, the way fuel usage changes as intensity increases and helps you to apply it to your own training and nutrition. He ties this all in, including nutrition, with periodization.

In answer to your PM, I have found that it was a little harder to find my "spot" in the very beginning of the season when I did the test. I don't train to race and I typically don't train regularly for biking come late fall through early winter but just do other things. So in early spring when I start up, it it takes a few runs, like maybe the first 5-7 rides to get that groove back with bike fitness. It's then after that the number that I achieve from the test actually works out well. I keep a close eye on it and if my AHR is higher along with a difficult perceived effort for a particular ride I feel it later in terms of fatigue and/or recovery so I tend to trust it.

Then of course there are those days riding when your body revolts and doesn't want to do things as well as the day before. Or I can leave feeling really crappy and have a great ride. In these instances I do trust the number and sort of hold to it. If I'm doing hill intervals I ignore everything and go by how I'm feeling. I'm usually surprised how my body responds and I see improvement by sometimes, 2 rides later.

As an athelete I know my body well though. So I'm of the opinion that I'd ignore what others say about you working hard enough.

[Eden]

I mention the gasping part because I seem to have a tough time, either on the trainer or in spin class, pushing myself to what I think my actual max might be. Whereas when I am out on the bike on a really hard, steep hill, it is all I can do to keep from falling over and it seems like my lungs will just burst if I keep trying to get more air in.

I think you're not alone - I (and many others) find that indoors, on a trainer, feels much harder than the same effort outside. You've also been training for a couple of years now, and as you get more fit, it becomes harder and harder to reach your actual max.

[Starfish]

it becomes harder and harder to reach your actual max.

On some weekend that you have scheduled for recovery, if you would like to come over and pace me up Hurricane Ridge, I'm guessing I would find it pretty fast. I could buy you and your hubby a beer after, though.

Seriously, I think I need to start riding with people. I dread it 'cause I'm so slow.

OK, I guess this is getting OT for time trialing. Thank you for all your info!

[LainiePants]

Great thread. I too am interested in giving TTs a try. I actually have one in mind that's two weeks from now. I haven't really been training too much over the last couple months, and definitely not for a TT, but I figure it couldn't hurt to try. Plus it will be a good chance to race myself into shape Need to figure out the LT though. I'm guessing it's aroung 170. (does that sound too high?) Think I may have to tryout the Carmichael test and see how it goes.

Starfish, I totally understand your frustration with figuring out HR zones. Don't know for sure what my max HR is, though I think it's probably true that it varies with activity. Back when i used to run (last year) I got my HR up to 195. But since then on the bike I've only ever reached 187. Though i suppose it's next to impossible to ever reach one's true HRmax anyway, right? Maybe in a life or death situation...

[Starfish]

Though i suppose it's next to impossible to ever reach one's true HRmax anyway, right? Maybe in a life or death situation...

I don't know...when I was in my teens, some of the swim team workouts came mighty close for me, I think.

[RoadRaven]

Great thread. I too am interested in giving TTs a try. I actually have one in mind that's two weeks from now...

So didja? didja? didja?
Have I missed a race report on this? Or did you not get a chance, Lanie?

Though i suppose it's next to impossible to ever reach one's true HRmax anyway, right? Maybe in a life or death situation...

When you want to throw up, you are almost at you maxHR. My understanding is that when you do throw up, you are there

Pay attention to your face and body and breathing. Do not spend any extra energy tightening your shoulders, grimacing, or gasping. Sometimes, I have to just tell myself to relax, take a deep breath, and shake my head. The grimace is for the final push . You must look relaxed when you pass your minute-man.

This is so important, I will just stress it again too.
Not only are you more effective if your muscles are "relaxing" into the effort (as opposed to tensing themselves into ineffectiveness) but the pschological advantage over your minute-man and whoever else you may pass is huge. Think about how easy Lance Armstrong made almost every ride look, even though we all knew he must be suffering.

And good advice about breaking the TT into chunks. Ride the course if you can. Know the distances. I know the first quarter landmark and I have a time-goal in my head for the half-way/turn-around.
I also know the landmark 5km out from the finish line, and 2km out and 1km out. I use these last landmarks to up my power output - even though I think I am giving it everything, I can usually find a little bit more...

[LainiePants]

No time trial for me yet. I've been having IT band issues. No fun at all. But I definitely see TTs in my future...

[RoadRaven]

Ah Lanie, thats no good at all!
Healing thoughts coming your way

[Starfish]

I think you may be underestimating your max. VT (ventilatory theshold - when you start gasping) can have nothing to do with LT or Max HR.

How important, then, is it to know one's max? Is the LT the more important thing to use when training, given that we want to increase it over time?

[Eden]

How important, then, is it to know one's max? Is the LT the more important thing to use when training, given that we want to increase it over time?

If you are using hr to train, your zones are based off of your max, so that does set the tenor for all of your training. If you are a little off it might not affect your training so much, but if you are off by a lot you can be working too hard or too easy (depending on which way you are off of course). In general your max is your max, its genetically set and really does not affect how fit you can become. LT is basically the percentage of your max that you can sustain and LT is trainable, so you can raise it. It is desirable to have your LT as close to your max as possible.

Knowing your measured LT is useful in a TT for pacing, but I think if you do a few you get to be able to feel it. They don't even have to be organized - just pick a stretch of road that you can go for 10 or 12 Km on without really stopping - you can have a turn around, most TT's have a turn around point midway, and ride as fast as you can while maintaining a relatively steady pace. If your speed falls significantly before you are finished, you've likely exceeded your LT. Like mudmucker said, some days you might not even be able to reach it without burning out, so listening to your body is important too.

Now of course in a competitive TT, when you get close enough to the finish you actually want to exceed your LT and try to time it so that you reach the end at just the point where you have nothing left. You don't want to go too early and peter off before the finish or go too late and still have steam after you cross the line. Figuring out that sweet spot is a lot harder.

As far as climbing Hurricane Ridge - Its a great ride and I do want to come and do it again some time - though I'm generally not allowed to go out and climb mountains on my rest days . There's actually a more weekend days this year without races than there have been in the past, so I might be able (urrrr - allowed....) to do it again this summer - and my A races are both climbing races, so I expect to have some longer climb workouts. If we decide to head your way I'll drop you a line when we make our plans.