When Dogs Run Loose

[songlady]

how awful that you got bitten. but if you didn't stop and he jumped on your bike and knocked you down and THEN bit you it would have been worse.

I hadn't gotten off my bike when he bit. I stopped pedaling (to slow down) and he bit my ankle. I then came to a complete stop, put my bike between us and yelled at him to "go home". If I had not stopped pedaling I would not have been bit. I should have known better because I have been chased by this dog before and he never attempted anything like this. All I want to say is that stopping is not ALWAYS the answer to dealing with these dogs!

[TsPoet]

Unfortunately this does come up a lot, and I usually avoid posting - because I'm somewhat on the dog's side.
If you use pepper spray - please only as a last resort (unless it's on the owner, they probably deserve it ).
Fear Aggression is the #1 non medical reason dogs are put to sleep in this country. Pepper spraying a fear aggressive dog re-enforces the behavior, likewise it can initiate the behavior in a non-fear aggressive dog. Dogs think differently, they just associate the pain with the thing they think caused the pain and attack it the next time.
This isn’t to say that you can’t defend yourself - you definitely should, but be aware that dogs don’t think the way humans do, and won’t associate their bad behavior with the cause of the corrective action, instead, they’ll associate the corrective action with cyclists and become fearful and aggressive toward them.
I’ve heard good things about airzounds and loud whistles - I carry a coach’s whistle, but I’ve never been quick enough to use it.


The reason I worry about all this:
My dog (see my avatar) was on his way to be euthanized - he would have been the first dog in over a year put to sleep at my no-kill Humane Society. Even the no-kill shelters euthanize vicious dogs, and my little guy fit the bill perfectly. He had been terribly abused by his former owners, and had become extremely fear aggressive toward people, dogs, and inanimate objects.
I have been working with him for 3 years trying to socialize him, to keep him from having to be put to sleep. Twice he’s attacked strangers, one was a cyclist, who got off his bike and put the bike between himself and Murphy and talked sweetly to him. If he’d done anything else, I never would have been able to teach Murphy not to be afraid of cyclists! (This event, obviously, was totally my fault, twice he’s gotten away from me while I’ve had him in public parks trying to socialize him - the other time he backed a pedestrian into a tree). After 3 years, I took him to Petsmart this weekend and he fearfully rode around in a shopping cart, He growled at one Great Dane, and didn’t threaten anyone/anything else - a huge breakthrough!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Unfortunately this does come up a lot, and I usually avoid posting - because I'm somewhat on the dog's side.
If you use pepper spray - please only as a last resort (unless it's on the owner, they probably deserve it ).

I consider it a last resort before my leg or face gets ripped open in an attack.

Pepper spraying a fear aggressive dog re-enforces the behavior, likewise it can initiate the behavior in a non-fear aggressive dog. Dogs think differently, they just associate the pain with the thing they think caused the pain and attack it the next time.

We're talking about dogs that are ALREADY attacking people and biting them. If a dog has attacked/bitten a person or cyclist on a public road already, it should not be running loose. And I'm not going to worry about its mental well-being at that point. There should not be a "next time" it bites someone while running loose. The next one could be a child's face, or the cyclist could get knocked off their bike and badly hurt or even killed.

This isn’t to say that you can’t defend yourself - you definitely should, but be aware that dogs don’t think the way humans do, and won’t associate their bad behavior with the cause of the corrective action, instead, they’ll associate the corrective action with cyclists and become fearful and aggressive toward them.

We're talking about dogs that are already aggressively attacking people. One can't expect the bite victims to act more kindly and passively so as to hopefully persuade a loose biting dog to consider changing his ways in the future.

Twice he’s attacked strangers, one was a cyclist, who got off his bike and put the bike between himself and Murphy and talked sweetly to him. If he’d done anything else, I never would have been able to teach Murphy not to be afraid of cyclists! (This event, obviously, was totally my fault, twice he’s gotten away from me while I’ve had him in public parks trying to socialize him - the other time he backed a pedestrian into a tree). After 3 years, I took him to Petsmart this weekend and he fearfully rode around in a shopping cart, He growled at one Great Dane, and didn’t threaten anyone/anything else - a huge breakthrough!

I CAN sympathize with you loving your dog very much and wanting to help him be a well adjusted dog, safe to be around. But I'm sorry, I don't want to be "practice" for some dog who's owner is trying to teach them not to bite anymore! If a dog who has already attacked and bitten people more than once comes running up to me in a threatening manner, I will do ANYTHING I can to keep him from taking a chunk out of me. In that scenario, (and forgive me for speaking plainly) I don't CARE if the dog needs compassion or not- I'll pepper spray him, bash his head with my frame pump, whatever it takes to keep his teeth from sinking into my leg. I'd shoot him too, if I had a gun with me. And if he bites me, an innocent passerby, while he's chasing or attacking me, I'll sue the owner for letting a dangerous dog loose to attack people.
Sorry, I don't intend to pick on you in particular. Just telling it like it is concerning how I myself feel about dog attacks. I know it's an emotional subject.

[TsPoet]

Lisa,
I'm not disagreeing with you!
I really think that I needed punished for my dogs actions on those two occasions, it would have been too bad for him to be punished, and either person would have been in his rights to defend himself - but it would have ruined my poor dog. Not the people's fault, not my dog's fault - MY fault.
the only area I maybe disagree with you is when you say (I'm paraphrasing) a dog that chases bikes shouldn't be loose - I'm not sure any dog should be lose and unattended - I've heard too many stories of dogs the owners thought were safe suddenly doing something genetically dog-like that the owners didn't expect. I have a next door neighbor dog that might open a single eyelid if a cyclist rode by - guess that kind of dog is OK to be out, but they are rare.
My encouragement for pepper spray as a last resort comes from the difficulty in knowing - I was brought down once by a dog when I stopped at a stop sign - didn't see it coming and I was on the ground being "attacked" - The second scariest tenth of a second in my life before I realized that the back of my neck was getting very wet, but not in any way damaged. The big loopy dog kept me pinned for a couple of minutes (I was still clipped in one foot and couldn't figure out how to get the big dog and bike off me) when a cyclist rode the other way, the dog obviously figured I was no fun and went running after that guy. That dog, which was 100% friendly, needed restrained by its owners and macing it might very well result in a fear aggressive dog. I never saw it again, and can only hope it's owners got it in the house and it didn't get hit by a car or hurt by a scared cyclist.
Reading this and similar forums for years, I've read a couple of times when people have used pepper spray on a dog - and it always seems like a reasonable thing to do under the given circumstances.

[aicabsolut]

I had a scary encounter with a dog who was chasing me (on his side of his fence, which he could have easily gone under), and I was starting up a hill, so I surely wouldn't have been able to outrun him. Luckily, he stayed on his side of the fence.

I almost got taken out by the happiest lab the next day. There was a family out all on their bikes with their dog. Dog clearly likes people on bikes. Dog trotted up to me so happy to be my friend and to cross right in front of my front tire a few times. I slowed down a lot, but was still nearly tripped. Then its mom called it over to her. Whew. How would I explain road rash in that situation? The dog liked me so much it tried to kill me?

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

TsPoet, thanks for your reply- I think we agree with each other -for the most part.

[liberty]

MD- I can SOOO understand where you are coming from. Been there. Still there. Needless to say, I now have Animal Control's phone number in my cell phone. If a dog comes after me in the street, AC will get a call. Enough calls from enough cyclists enough times and they might end up doing something... Since my wreck with the dog ("Hi, and dogs???" thread), I've begun to stay away from certain routes that are more risky. Means many times I end up driving places to go riding. The owners of the dogs that attacked me have agreed to tie up their dogs when I am riding.

Dogs, like cars, are one of the risks of cycling. But my general pattern for dealing with dogs now is to just plain stop the bike and put the bike between me and the dog. It is extremely difficult to defend yourself while on a bike. And this makes it obvious to everyone around you that something is going on. The dog can't chase you out into the street either. Just be aware that more than likely someone will have to come out and rescue you. And if the dog won't let you move away, it is a great time to call animal control or the cops, or yell loudly for the owners or neighbors. This is a great time to tell the owners about all the cyclists you know who have been attacked by unleashed dogs, and remind them of the liability involved for the owners...

Best case scenario for stopping, you make it away from the dogs ok. Worst case: damage to you, the bike... If you are attacked, take photos then and there, call the cops, and ALWAYS get the home owner's insurance information while there in front of the cop. Don't tell them you are sorry. Call animal control. Just know that if a dog comes after you and causes a wreck or accident, without you initiating the incident or antagonizing the dog, it is considered a dog attack. Almost better if the dog does bite you, because law enforcement is more aggressive with things. Animal control is too. Sorry to say that. Not to say that stopping the bike is an effort to tempt the dog to bite you. But if he is going to chase you, he will more than likely run in front of you before you can stop. If he is going to bite you, he will bite you whether you are on the bike or not. You have a better chance of being physically safe if the bike is between you and the dog. Might cost you a good ride, but I think in the long run it will be better. That is just my two cents...

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I hadn't gotten off my bike when he bit. I stopped pedaling (to slow down) and he bit my ankle. I then came to a complete stop, put my bike between us and yelled at him to "go home". If I had not stopped pedaling I would not have been bit. I should have known better because I have been chased by this dog before and he never attempted anything like this. All I want to say is that stopping is not ALWAYS the answer to dealing with these dogs!

Every situation is of course different, but to say that stopping and getting off your bike and behind it when a dog chases you is a "BAD idea!!!" is perhaps not the best thing to tell people. It's a method that has worked well for many people, including myself.
You were bitten you as you were still riding your bike and he was still chasing you, right? Most of the dogs that come running to chase me, I just know there's no way I would be able to pick up speed and outrace them anyway. They seem to get more excited and more aggressive when you are racing away from them like prey. A guy I know had his calf ripped open as he was pedaling trying to outrun a big dog. It's scary, I know.

[spokewench]

I hadn't gotten off my bike when he bit. I stopped pedaling (to slow down) and he bit my ankle. I then came to a complete stop, put my bike between us and yelled at him to "go home". If I had not stopped pedaling I would not have been bit. I should have known better because I have been chased by this dog before and he never attempted anything like this. All I want to say is that stopping is not ALWAYS the answer to dealing with these dogs!

The only time I did get bit while riding was when I was on the inside of a paceline and a dog came running out of a yard. I could not stop or swerve cause I was in a paceline and the dog bit me on the ankle. Stopping has worked for me.