Thoughts on Target Heart Rate?

[Jiffer]

I never used to ride with a heart rate monitor. I had trouble trying to get one to work, so I just went by perceived exertion. I never knew what it meant when someone said, "My heart rate was at XXX!" The numbers were like a foreign language.

When I developed adrenal fatigue and could hardly ride a bike worth beans all of a sudden, I saw a nutritionist, who told me to limit my rides to 30 minutes and keep my heart rate at 135-140. I guess she got the number based on my age, 42 and a certain percentage of maximum heart rate. That heart rate comes out to 76-79% of maximum heart rate, per formulas on the web.

It took some doing to get a heart rate monitor working, but I finally did. Turns out, riding at the suggested heart rate was actually faster than what I had been doing for the previous month or so after the strong fatigue set in. But I was skeptical at whether or not the range she gave me was truly right for me, and after riding at her suggested HR a few times consecutively, it seemed my symptoms worsened. So I'd back off, eventually try again, back off again, sometimes not riding at all. Just going for consecutive easy walks seemed to worsen my symptoms as well. UGH!!!

Fast forward 10 months, my health hadn't improved, so I switched to a naturopathic doctor who confirmed adrenal fatigue, but said I also had candida (yeast overgrowth), low hormones and subclinical hypothyroidism.

After being on the very strict candida diet for 3 1/2 weeks (no sugar, among many other restrictions), I started to feel a bit more energy and it finally seemed I could actually consistently ride and not feel worse. YAY! It's now been over 8 weeks. I'm still not fully well and have to be careful how much and how hard I ride. I realized I overdid it a couple of weeks ago and backed off, so I'm still finding the right balance. I couldn't get my heart rate monitor working at first . . . again, after not using it for so long (cause I just didn't ride at all for so long or only really super easy). So I went back to perceived exertion for a while, but finally got it working and used it for my last two rides. I now agree that 135-140 is probably about as hard as I should go most of the time. My nutritionist had told me that my speed should improve in time even as I stay within the heart rate and 30 minute time frame. And eventually, as my health improved, I could ride longer and at a higher heart rate.

My husband doesn't believe the formula used to determine heart rate fits everyone. His heart rate gets a lot higher than what the formula says it should be, but he knows what is normal for "him".

I'm just curious what your experiences are with heart rate. Does the formula seem to hold true for you? What percentage of maximum heart rate do you tend to stay at, on say moderate paced rides? I'll take any thoughts on heart rate anyone wants to dish out.

[Eden]

The formula is pretty bogus. To really know you need to do a max test or calculate from a sub-max test.

I haven't done it for some years, but my max used to be over 210. Using the formula it would have supposed been 187.....

[Irulan]

ditto, I've always been told "the formula" is not accurate at all. I too have done sub max tests.... essentially you warm up for 20 minutes, and then ride at the consistent maximum that you can ride in for the next 20 minutes at a fairly high cadence( 90-100), take an average of your highest HR and then calculate:

http://lwcoaching.com/?p=138
http://lwcoaching.com/trainingplans/levelCalcs.htm

[M-Rad]

Jiffer, i am also battling adrenal issue due to overtraining except my cortisol pitches up at any perceived stress. My hormones are normal but are behaving as if I have a deficiency.

I was misdiagnosed put on a bunch of hormones that made my symptoms work.

I am now working with a nutritionist as well. He has me riding 6 days on trainer for one hour and one long ride (60 miles) on Saturdays. I have to stay under 130 max heart rate (zone 1 - ability to carry conversation). He went riding with me once (he is a cyclist too and works with a lot of teams), he set my pace at 12 mph and told me not to exceed it. While the pace is excruciatingly slow, I find I run into problems if I exceed this pace or if my heart rate runs beyond 140 (way worse if my hr goes to 160'and beyond). If I don't follow these guidelines, I have insomnia that night and will wake up several times unable to fall asleep and only averaging 4 hours of sleep meanwhile waking up with rapid breathing and sweating.

Also, I have been banned from putting any pressure on my legs so hills are out of the question for now. He said for now the most important thing is to build base. The only way to do this is to ride long and slow at a low heart rate. He cited a 50 mile ride he did with some cat 1's. No one went beyond 18 mph. He said in other sports you can push and stress your body to advance to the next level but you can't do this in cycling without a solid base. He could not stress the importance of long and slow.

Hope that helps.

[Jiffer]

Jiffer, i am also battling adrenal issue due to overtraining except my cortisol pitches up at any perceived stress. My hormones are normal but are behaving as if I have a deficiency.

I was misdiagnosed put on a bunch of hormones that made my symptoms work.

I am now working with a nutritionist as well. He has me riding 6 days on trainer for one hour and one long ride (60 miles) on Saturdays. I have to stay under 130 max heart rate (zone 1 - ability to carry conversation). He went riding with me once (he is a cyclist too and works with a lot of teams), he set my pace at 12 mph and told me not to exceed it. While the pace is excruciatingly slow, I find I run into problems if I exceed this pace or if my heart rate runs beyond 140 (way worse if my hr goes to 160'and beyond). If I don't follow these guidelines, I have insomnia that night and will wake up several times unable to fall asleep and only averaging 4 hours of sleep meanwhile waking up with rapid breathing and sweating.

Also, I have been banned from putting any pressure on my legs so hills are out of the question for now. He said for now the most important thing is to build base. The only way to do this is to ride long and slow at a low heart rate. He cited a 50 mile ride he did with some cat 1's. No one went beyond 18 mph. He said in other sports you can push and stress your body to advance to the next level but you can't do this in cycling without a solid base. He could not stress the importance of long and slow.

Hope that helps.

That does help. Thanks so much. I've searched high and low for anything I could find to help me know what I should be doing when it comes to riding. The first doctor I went to was a cyclist and recommended by a coach. That's why I went to him, but he was a conventional doctor and after he tested for anemia, which I suspected, and said I didn't have that, I didn't have a lot of faith that he was going to get to the bottom of my issues. Going to both my nutritionist and my naturopathic doctor, while I think I got to the bottom of my problems and am getting the help I need for my health, I feel like they don't "get me" with the cycling and don't truly know how to instruct me when it comes to that.

Like I said, now that my fatigue has lessened some, I do feel like the HR my nutritionist gave me seems reasonable, at least for 30-40 minute rides. However, if I could build my base and ride longer distances at a lower HR, then I would LOVE to do that . . . and have wondered if that would be safe for me to do. It seemed like it would, but I've been afraid to try.

I have done many a 30 minute ride between 10-12 mph hour for the past year, so yeah, I get the frustration of SLOW. But if I could slowly build to a lot longer than 30 minutes at that pace, I would be thrilled. And once my health issues are better resolved I'll have the base to build on and I know I need that.

You said some other things that made me go "hmmm". Some things I'll have to pay attention to. I do have high cortisol levels at night, particularly early in the morning around 4 a.m., which wake me up sometimes and keep me from falling back asleep. It comes and goes. Some nights I get a reasonable night's sleep and others I don't. I also get hot and sweaty more some nights than others (but not rapid breathing). I'll have to start paying attention to any correlation there might be with those symptoms and my previous day's bike ride . . . or other exertion.

One of my symptoms is dizziness. My eyes get that black out sensation when I stand, particularly at night or morning when I get out of bed, but sometimes during the day. It used to be all the time, even just getting out of the car, but now it's mostly at night and sometimes during the day. I do notice that my level of exercise affects that. When that happens it's a drop in blood pressure and it's a symptom of adrenal fatigue. The first time I saw my nutritionist she took my BP sitting and then standing. When I stood it dropped 30 points. (It's supposed to go up 3 to 5 points or so.) Now when I have it tested, it only drops a little, so I'm seeing progress.

I find it interesting that your nutritionist has you on a trainer. I suppose that's to keep you from riding any hills. We just moved to about the worse place I could live and do flat rides from my house. I pretty much go back and forth along a very short stretch of road below our house which is "sort of" flat. Or I put my bike in my car and drive somewhere. No matter where I go, there will always be a minimum of at least a 2 or 3% incline somewhere in my ride. And I hate riding on trainers. But I just go stupid slow on those 2%'s, watching my heart rate, and when I eventually turn around, I get to fly down them. My average pace today was about 11.8 going west and 18 or so going east for a 14.2 average. It's amazing the difference in pace on such a minor incline, just by staying at a certain heart rate.

Anyway, thanks so much for your input. I think I'll try doing one "long" ride a week, keeping my heart rate lower than suggested by my nutritionist. I was starting to do some weekly long rides, if you call 10 miles long, but at the end of my second one I wasn't feeling so good. I think I pushed my pace too much on that and a couple of previous shorter rides. That was before my HR monitor was working and, since I was feeling a little better, I was testing my limits a bit. I hate to go so slow, but slow I will go until my health improves.

Thanks again!

[Jiffer]

ditto, I've always been told "the formula" is not accurate at all. I too have done sub max tests.... essentially you warm up for 20 minutes, and then ride at the consistent maximum that you can ride in for the next 20 minutes at a fairly high cadence( 90-100), take an average of your highest HR and then calculate:

http://lwcoaching.com/?p=138
http://lwcoaching.com/trainingplans/levelCalcs.htm

Yeah, the problem with that is I can't ride for 20 minutes at a high intensity. I've had this same discussion with my husband.

Thanks for your comments.

[OakLeaf]

I think as long as you seem to have found by trial and error what's a safe HR zone for you, stick with that and don't even worry what your max might be.

It's true that just like any "predicted" formulas, the "predicted" HR tables might be true across large populations, but not much use for individuals. It's also true that whatever your max, it does go down as you age. When you're 100% and you want to start getting really strong really fast, then you can do a test ... for now, it seems like you already know what you need to know.

[goldfinch]

I think as long as you seem to have found by trial and error what's a safe HR zone for you, stick with that and don't even worry what your max might be.

It's true that just like any "predicted" formulas, the "predicted" HR tables might be true across large populations, but not much use for individuals. It's also true that whatever your max, it does go down as you age. When you're 100% and you want to start getting really strong really fast, then you can do a test ... for now, it seems like you already know what you need to know.

From what I have read the predicted HR tables are not even that accurate for large populations. Here is an article that discusses a study of a large number of healthy women and their maximum heart rate: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/0...mens-workouts/

It suggests using the formula 206 minus 88% of your age.

However, the result is as you say only based on averages and the number may be too low or too high, depending on the woman.

Anyway, 220 minus age is too high. On average. At least according to this one study. Though the sample size was really quite large.
In my own case, if I do a hard set of intervals with a personal trainer (which I did last fall, hated, and quit) my heart rate maxed out at 158 and for very short time periods. Oddly, this is exactly the number I get with the 206 minus 88% of my age.

[Crankin]

My HR has always been high compared to what it's "supposed" to be. I quit wearing my monitor long ago, because of this. I know what my pattern is, and it only deviates if I am getting sick or have over trained (which for me, doesn't take much).
When I wake up, my HR is about 55-58. As soon as I get up, my HR at rest is about 68-70. It goes up very quickly, just with walking and normal activities. When I am riding, it's between 120 and 150. At my age, 80% is in the 130s, which seems low; I am not out of shape and while my max has gone down in the last 10 years, it hasn't gone down that much. But, it's very consistent. So... I stopped thinking about it.

[Jiffer]

I think as long as you seem to have found by trial and error what's a safe HR zone for you, stick with that and don't even worry what your max might be.

I agree and that's pretty much what I'm doing. I was mostly curious what other's thoughts were on the subject of HR and I'm finding it interesting that not one person so far thinks the formula is a good way to calculate it.

[Jiffer]

I am now working with a nutritionist as well. He has me riding 6 days on trainer for one hour and one long ride (60 miles) on Saturdays. I have to stay under 130 max heart rate (zone 1 - ability to carry conversation). He went riding with me once (he is a cyclist too and works with a lot of teams), he set my pace at 12 mph and told me not to exceed it.

First of all, I find it very intriguing that you are riding 6 days a week. That sounds like a lot! But when you are riding at such a low intensity, I guess it's fine.

How did he determine your 130 max? Was it when he went riding with you and gauged how you did?

[M-Rad]

Ha!Ha! jiffer, I am in SoCal too! Once we are both past this, we should go do a century ride to celebrate.

One thing i forgot to mention is that as I am doing these slow efforts my cadence needs to be above 95. At first I thought this is stupid, I'll never get any better doing this but I noticed that within a week my conditioning had improved. If my avg hr was 125 riding trainer at 13mph at 95 cadence, then the following week my hr was lower and the same speed felt easier than the week before, so there is a method to his madness. As my nutrionist said, I need to ride zone .5 (even less than a zone 1). 135 hr is the max I can go to, so when I do my trainer rides, I try to stay way under this to prevent stress to my body as I rebuild my base.

On my long rides, I choose flat routes as much as possible. I do come across some hills that are between 2-4% grade. I just make sure to go very slowly and spin. This is tough for me b/c I am a climber but I am sticking to what my nutritionist says. I've tried to ride hard a couple of times and i really screwed myself the next couple of days in terms of stress and insomnia. Since I've been dealing with this since last September, I don't want to go backwards anymore. From now on, it's long and slow for me (at 95 cadence and above).

What supplements are you on? My problem was cortisol. I could not fall asleep or stay asleep. Then one stupid doctor put me on mega doses of progesterone and melatonin to help me sleep. Wrong! Both these convert to cortisol. So at 10pm, I'm wide awake ready to run a marathon. I had to take sleep aids to get to sleep but would still wake up at 2 and 4 am unable to get back to sleep. My nutritionist took me off of those hormones. Now at bedtime I take some cal/mag/zinc along with 5 htp. That helps.

Your blood sugar spikes a lot. How many times a day do you eat. My food plan requires me to eat 7 x a day. I eat every two hours. Aside from my main meals, my snacks consist of a fat and sugar (fruit with tablespoon of almond butter). Before I go to bed, I eat a combo of shredded wheat, applesauce and almond butter to prevent my blood sugar from rising during the night and preventing my cortisol from going up to compensate. I had a friend go through adrenal fatigue where he was tired all the time due to low cortisol and he used a lot of salt on his food plus ate lots of protein.

Also when I do my long rides, I make sure to try to get in 400 calories for each hour of riding to prevent cortisol from rushing in to the job b/c I am running out of energy. So I have been relying on those Justin almond butter packets (the flavored ones like honey almond or chocolate b/c it is all about pairing fat and sugar when you work out.)

The next thing they are going to put me on is testosterone. My hormone range is normal but testosterone was slighly below normal. He feels it is too low for an athlete. The theory now is that I don't have enough T, so adrenaline and cortisol jump up to compensate. Will let you know how it goes. What are your hormone levels like? I am 45 yo. Since this started, I haven't had a period. I hope I didn't put myself into menopause.

Well I'm off to eat some breakfast and then spin for an hour. Woo-hoo!

Let me know if any of this makes sense.

[M-Rad]

I don't know how he came up with hr number. I am older but I think that number was based on the fact that once I start hitting 150 hr, my stress goes up. I literally feel like an anemic person with asthma, I huff and puff with no energy to turn the pedals.

[M-Rad]

Ps - one final thing. On the road, I never ever ride in my big chain ring (only on descents then it's right back down again to spinning).

On trainer, I ride in my easiest gear.

Again, this is not to put pressure on legs or cause hr to go up above my allotted max.

[Jiffer]

Hey M-Rad, I'm gonna message you so the rest of the forum doesn't have to read our conversation.