Muslim Women All Body Swimsuits

[Mr. Bloom]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070218/...omen_swimsuits


Recently, I remember reading that the Queen Rania of Jordan (I think???), who is young and fashion conscious, had spoken out against the mandate that Muslim women cover themselves so completely.

This is a sincere question - really aimed at someone with Muslim knowledge.

While I respect someone's free choice to exceed the tenets of their faith, is there really a doctrinal mandate in the Muslim faith that mandates full body covering for women??

In Christianity, 1 Peter 3 encourages modesty in attitude and appearance:

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.

...but there is nothing as extreme as the practice that Muslim women adhere to (and I don't know or understand if it's by choice or mandate in certain countries).

Does anyone have any insight to offer? No Muslim bashing...please

[crazycanuck]

Mr Silver,

Just a thought as i sit here eating my lunch. Doesn't it depend on the type of Islam a particular sect follows? I'd have to do some searching but it depends on the country.

I see the Cronulla beach riots sparked the desire for a burquini.

C

[snapdragen]

I'm not muslim, but I found this:

The intention of Western dress is to reveal the figure, while the intention of Muslim dress is to conceal it, at least in public.

The relevant verse of the Qur'an says:
"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the women of the believers to draw upon them their over-garments.

That is more appropriate so that they may be recognised and not molested" (33:59).

Is is therefore required for a Muslim woman when she goes out to wear a dress that covers her from head to foot and does not reveal the figure. According to some scholars only the hands and face should be left uncovered, while according to some others the face should also be covered. There are therefore two opinions on this matter.
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cc - I think you are right, at least in the US and probably Oz, Muslim women choose how they will dress. I work with a number of women that just wear the head scarf, not the full dress. I've also seen patients in the hospital in full head to toe dress.

[crazycanuck]

I would say somone living in say Pakistan or Saudi Arabia would adhere to the Qur'an to the exact word. As Sharia law is followed very very closely not much choice.

Now, somewhere like Indonesia or Malaysia-Both are predominantly Islamic countries but all depends again- there's more choice. It's a bit confusing to explain when it comes to Malaysia & Indonesia as there are so many cultures but the muslim faith is predonminant.

It totally depends Mr Silver. All I can say is learn about each country, read as many books as you can and possibly watch Al-jezeera.

I think i'm babbling and have had too much lunch. Let me think about this one.

C

[Grog]

I am not an Islamic studies expert, or a Muslim myself, but I'm pretty sure this does not differ much in Islam as in the Catholic faith (in a variant of which I've grown), for example, so here is my take on it.

* Regarding what the Quran actually says:
There are probably many passages that can be interpreted as referring to women's dress. They are probably all quite metaphoric/poetic and not very clear. They are written in classic Arabic, which makes matters of interpretation all the more variable... Call me a relativist, but there are probably many different ways to interpret it, going from a 'modest attitude' to the burqua (Taliban-style).

By the way, Muslim men also generally are told not to wear shorts and are supposed to grow a beard. Here interpretations vary as well...

If one searches the bible for long enough, one will certainly fine many references to how women should dress, just as poetic and metaphorical... Different versions of the bible will differ... The bible was also written in ancient languages or versions of languages, so translations/interpretations vary.

* Regarding the relations between culture, religion, and the State:
Some countries have adopted Islam as a state religion. They are usually the countries where the religious sayings are interpreted in their most conservative version. Correct my outsider's point of view, but it seems to me that in the USA, some states are also closer to organized religion than others, and it's also where the most conservative interpretations of religion are most frequent. All over the world, for a few centuries, if not millenia, the struggle between political powers and religious powers has been continuous. In general, when they get very close (with the religion on top), women don't get a very good deal or lots of options.

* Regarding Muslim women in non-Muslim countries who decide to abide by more traditional religious principle:
I'm not sure what I think about that, but I tend to think that, just like non-Muslim women (and men) by the way, it's not so much a matter of 'choice' as of internalizing what we feel is 'normal', 'good', what we've grown up around, what we take for granted as the right way to do things. Sure I 'choose' to dress up and wear a nice suit for a job interview, but honestly it would be unthinkable for me to do otherwise, just as it would be unthinkable for these young women to go to the beach wearing a tiny bikini. (Isn't extreme to show as much skin as "we" do to go swimming?)

* To answer the original question by Mr. Silver, my .02 cents (Canadian $):
Depending on their country, culture, education, tradition, family, desire to show affiliation to the above, etc., their mileage... er, coverage may vary.



Edited to add: I don't think there is such a thing as a written, ancestral version of the sharia.

[Wahine]

Just echoing what CC, Snap and Grog have said. The code of dress depends on many factors, location, sect, family etc. The Muslim faith is as diverse as the Christian faith, if not more so. Catholics have very different rituals and ideals than Protestants. Sunnis are very different from Shi'ites.

I have many Muslim friends who do not adhere to any particular rules with regard to dress but still pray 5 times in a day and observe Ramadan. To me, that's sticking to your faith. I don't know many Christians that pray 5 times per day or Catholics that strictly observe Lent. I have some Muslim friends that drink coffee and alcohol, some that won't touch either and avoid caffienated beverages all together.

Even within a country their are huge differences in Isalmic traditions.

[Mr. Bloom]

it's not so much a matter of 'choice' as of internalizing what we feel is 'normal', 'good', what we've grown up around, what we take for granted as the right way to do things.

A very good point here...but, I do wonder if it's a choice for women immediately following a fundamental sectarian political shift...say following the fall of the Shah of Iran in '79.

[crazycanuck]

Mr Silver, what about Pakistan, a predominantly muslim country since it's inception in 1947. What about India? How about Africa?Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia etc etc..

Just because Iran had a revolution in 1979, signalling yet another change in the Middle East, doesn't mean other predominantly muslim countries didn't recognize or follow strict adherence to the koran.

Interesting questions Mr Silver & I don't mean to be rude but perhaps an arranged visit to your local mosque wouldn't be a bad idea? Again, depending on the mufti(?), you'll receive just one view. You may never receive the response you want either.

Wikipedia is also a good source on the chador, niqab, burqua and hijab
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chador

Is it ok to discuss this here? Snap???

C

[Mr. Bloom]

Thanks cc, I think that Snap answered my original question with the quote she cited...in addition, I think everyone has been careful to avoid a 'debate', so I don't think we're off base with the discussion.

[snapdragen]

I find it an interesting discussion, no one is getting out of control or name calling. This would never happen on some other boards.

[alpinerabbit]

In terms of the interest of this message board - Anything that will allow women to exercise is fine with me, so if a burquini is what's needed, great!

I know someone for whom it is a personal choice to wear a veil. No pressure from family and definitely not from her western husband.

[margo49]

I'm with Rabbit!
Also, as the SO always says "There is *one* religious authority in this family and it's *not* me".
Or, in my own words "No [insert your favourite negative word for "religious authority"] is going to tell *me* what to wear or not to wear on my head"

I saw a Religiously Observant Jewish woman biking in our fields this past autumn (fall). She was in a black, mid-calf full-cut skirt , a long-sleeved white hoody (also generously tailored), white rib-knit stockings , and a helmet with a bandana underneath! She was acoompanied by her bearded, side-locked husband who was wearing black track pants and a white hoody.
I also saw a woman running a marathon here in a below-the-knee black skirt made of some light-sport-synthetic. The skirt was cut so that it was very wide around the knee are and fit closer at the waist and quite narrow at the hem (think: aubergine/eggplant). Her top was not body-fitting and she covered her head with a scarf.

It can be done and it *will * be done

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Well heck just look at all the old postcards and pictures of women around 1910, bicycling with long skirts and the then-typical "full body armor". They had metal cages around their chain drive and/or back wheel spokes so as not to let their long skirts get caught while riding. (Shades of Isadora Duncan...shudder...!)

[East Hill]

True, but those ladies weren't out to try to win any competitions! (and trust me, I don't think they did ).

East Hill

[Duck on Wheels]

I remember back when I was studying Anthro, I came across an article on food taboos. "Oh, those," I thought to myself, "Other, less rational people have those; I don't." So I'm gladly reading along, laughing quietly to myself about the silly taboos. Then I get to a picture of a table set for a Seder ... with a bottle of Coke . And there it was. A taboo I felt in the gut. And so totally meaningless. I'm not observant. I don't even believe, don't even know what it is I'm s'posed to believe in. But Coke at a seder, that just felt so wrong. All right, so maybe it's that I don't like coke in general, but I took it as a humbling experience: I too am a bearer of inexplicable, irrational taboos.

Jump forward a few decades to current debates in Europe as to whether the burka, the chador, maybe even hijab are women-oppressive garments, and to France deciding that girls will not be allowed to wear hijab in school. To even out the blow, and only after the blow was challenged, they also forbade religious jewelry of any kind (little cross on a chain, mogen david on a chain, etc.). It struck me right off that that was the wrong way to go about it. That just makes hijab even more of an identity item, an embattled one at that. And in France, of all places !?!? Why not popularize hijab as a fashion garment instead? It already is a fashion statement for Muslim women (check out how they color-coordinate hijab with dress, etc.!) So why not popularize it? Wouldn't that take the religion-political edge off?

So lo and behold, now somebody has come up with the idea of hijab as fashion, especially as sports fashion, for everywoman. http://www.thehijabshop.com/capsters/index.php
First these designer sport hijabs were presented as a solution for Muslim women who want to run, ride, swim, ski ... But now it turns out lots of women are ordering them. (Note the "out of stock" on every single model!) They're pretty, comfy, practical (keep your hair clean, neat, out of the way). Think buff-with-chin-strap or Finland-style-balaklava but loose and airy. And in cool colors, coordinated with other sports gear. Nike also makes some -- in pink! http://www.ohmpage.ca/2006/03/20/nik...-sports-hijab/

For more discussion on this new fashion/religion/identity statement (or is it?) see blog and debate responses at http://www.antoniabance.org.uk/2005/08/04/hijab/