Fuel Review ~ opinions?

I'm wondering if I got enough fuel on my ride yesterday - I thought so, but could use another opinion or 12. I want to learn :)

63mile ride

Breakfast: toaster biscuit w/ almond butter & jam, egg, 1/2c hash browns, 4oz juice, 1/2c yogurt w/ 1/2c berries, rice milk latte.

On Ride: 1 bottle w/ Emergen-C, majority of camelback
Stop 1: 1/2 lara bar, 1/2 banana, orange slice
On Road: 1/2 lara bar
Lunch Break: Whole Wheat sandwich w/ Almond Butter, 2 sweet pickles, 1/2 lara bar
On Road: 1 Gu
Near end of ride: 1/2 Gu

I felt cold the first half of the ride, and fatigued the second. Legs got crampy trying to push up the one "hill" at the end of the ride - took significant distance to recover to our traveling speed. I was never hungry en route, but rather felt the need to get fuel to keep my legs a'movin.

Does this seem about right? Far too much or too little? Thanks!!

Nokomis, did you ever feel that you rode your pace on this ride? Did you feel you had lots and lots of time to ride easy at the beginning, almost stupidly slow? Did you feel like you had to keep up with the two guys?

My overall impression is that your fatigue at the end wasn't due to lack of fuel, it was due to riding at someone else's pace. Maybe I'm wrong.

PS - that much food would have me feel like crap but others maybe able to tolerate that much.

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

Nokomis, did you ever feel that you rode your pace on this ride? Did you feel you had lots and lots of time to ride easy at the beginning, almost stupidly slow? Did you feel like you had to keep up with the two guys?

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Good point! The only road training I do is with DH - I've never been on the road without him. I'd say most of the ride I was at the top end of my speed... if the wind changed or we got a gust, it'd push me off the back and I'd either have to hussle to keep up, or just dog along until they slowed down :p At the end, I did tell the guy pulling our line to slow down; his computer wasn't working and his legs were easily pulling 23mph - and wanting to do more :eek: even with a slight tail wind, I wasn't feeling that strong... 21 was as much as I could sustain.

Ah ha! I think we have the solution. Dump DH for the ride and ride your pace. Trust me, you have the legs but you must ride your pace. Lots of warm-up time and no more than a comfortable pace for the middle portion. You know the hills are at the end (wasn't that in Susan's post about the ride?) so save your energy for them.

Not that I don't have fun riding with my DH, but sometimes they are just a hindrance. ;) :p

Just to give you a comparison for fuel intake. Sunday's ride was 60 miles, 2,500 ft of climbing, windy (strong enough to make the flags whip and snap straight out) and I'm 135 lbs.

Breakfast -
Medium size bowl of hot multi-grain cereal with butter and brown sugar
Iced latte during 20 min drive to start

On ride -
A bit more than 2 bottles Cytomax
About 1.5 bottle water (so close to 4 bottles of liquid total)
3 servings HammerGel - nanner flavor (thanks, MP, the flask worked great)

This is the absolute max effort I would do without some kind of solid food like a PayDay or a Mojo Bar. I would have eaten more on the ride but I rode to a restaurant at the end so I knew I didn't have to fuel up too much.

Just shows how different we are - I'd need something more solid than what you ate sadie. 'course, I'm not a gel fan, so I'd probably have a mojo bar, oh, and I like the cliff nectar bars too. (dark chocolate and walnuts)

And my brand new favorite after ride snack - 1/2 a Mission Turkey Sandwich :D I'll have to see if I can copy it on my own, I can't always get to Mission Coffee after a ride!

Turkey
Cranberry sauce
Walnuts
Lettuce
7 grain bread

Am I missing anything jo?:D ;)

Well, you probably burned 2900-3250 calories, depending on how much you had to fight the wind. You (anyone) could put through, at the most, 1200-1600.


Ride:1282

Emergen-C: 14x20= 280
Lara Bar: 1.5x240= 360
Gu: 1.5x100= 150
Banana: .5x112= 56
Orange Slice: 1x59= 59
Whole Wheat Bread: 2x65= 130
Almond Butter 1Tbsp: 1x88= 88
Sweet Pickle 1/2 cup 1x159= 159

So, if I guessed right on the Emergen-C, if you drank it all, you were right at the low end of what your stomach could process.

Plus the good breakfast that we didn't even count.

At the most, you could try adding in 100 more calories/hour- but any more than that is too much for your stomach to process.

http://tinyurl.com/jvcwc

This is a really good generalized nutritional article by Steve Born, just to give you some basics. Also on the website you can find all you need to know about electrolytes/hydration.

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

3 servings HammerGel - nanner flavor (thanks, MP, the flask worked great)

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Glad it worked!!! Now you have my secret weapon!

Heh, Nanci beat me to it. I was plugging all your food into Calorie King and came up with a total of 1250 calories consumed. I personally think you didn't eat enough, but do keep in mind that my opinion is based on what I've found works best for me which may not work best for you. I weigh 155 lbs - which also factors into how many cells I need to fuel on a ride. A lighter weight person does not need as many calories to keep moving - case in point SadieKate. :)

My Polar HRM estimated yesterday's calorie expenditure at 3027 (I weight 155). The night before I ate a large carbolicious 850 calorie dinner right before bed, a 400 calorie breakfast, 1300 calories while I was on the bike and at rest stops during the ride. Right after the ride I chowed down 400 cals. Then another high-carb 700 calorie dinner, and I was still slightly behind on my daily count.

At rest stops, I always go straight for the bagels and cookies. Bananas and fruit just aren't high-calorie enough.

I'll admit my intake was on the low side but I don't take in as much food per hour on a metric course as I would on a full century. It will catch up with me before the end of the ride but I also can't eat tons while riding. Between the heat and the hills, I'll urp. I also knew I was riding directly to a restaurant (crepe with swiss, spinach, shrooms and tomatoes, country fries and fresh fruit :) ).

I need to go check out the HammerGel recipes on their site. See what flavors they mix with banana.

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Originally Posted by Dianyla

My Polar HRM estimated yesterday's calorie expenditure at 3027 (I weight 155)

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Dianyla ~ is your HRM combined w/ your computer, or are you running two to get cadence, distance, and HR?

I'm going to have to dig thru Nanci's links some more ~ and start using my CalKing account again. I really don't know how much I am eating, or need to sustain activity.

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Originally Posted by Dianyla

A lighter weight person does not need as many calories to keep moving...

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Yeah - I'm working on becoming that person ;) I've got ya topped by 10lbs. Oh - and every time I saw long braids I wanted to ask if it was you!

General Qu: Are you usually hungry after a ride? It takes me a long time to feel hungry after ~ we got off the road at 1:30, and I made dinner & ate after 6pm but wouldn't have if DH wasn't complaining about needing food.

"As far as calorie replenishment is concerned, the body has a limit to what it can accept from carbohydrate donation for return to the energy cycle. Researchers such as Coleman, Noakes and others (in carbohydrate oxidative research) agree that up to 1.0-1.1 grams of carbohydrate per minute can be utilized from exogenous (outside) carbohydrate donation. A 1.0 g/carb per minute donation is 240 carbohydrate calories per hour. A 1.1 g/carb per minute donation is 264 carbohydrate calories per hour. Taking into account that some of those calories- approzimately 6-23%- are burned/lost during the digestive process, this suggests that for the average athlete the minimum intake is 254.4 calories to obtain 240 calories per hour (1.0 per minute with 6% lost in route) while the absolute upper maximum is 324.72 carbohydrate calories required in order to regenerate 264 carbohydrate calories (1.1 per minute with 23% lost in route).

We take a slightly more conservative side and suggest a slightly lower overall dose after finding that these higher amounts only induced gastric stress disorders and reduced performance in many athletes. This is why our common recommendation is approximately 60-70 grams of carbohydrates (240-280 calories). That will, in most situations, and for most athletes, provide enough carbohydrates for energy production (the limit of what the body can metabolize) while taking into account a percentage of those calories being lost/burned during the digestive/metabolic processes."

Quoted from Hammer Gel's website.

Yes. Not too bothered right away, but within 20/30mins I'll be feeling pretty peckish. Like, not starving hungry, but I definitely need a snack to tide me over until it's convenient to organise real food (the bike has to be washed straight away, else it won't get done for days and the mud will have dried into something impossible to get off).

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Originally Posted by Nokomis

Dianyla ~ is your HRM combined w/ your computer, or are you running two to get cadence, distance, and HR?

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I'm using the Polar s720i, which does all of my computing needs. I love this little device, but it wasn't cheap. I was able to save some money on it by buying it on eBay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nokomis

Oh - and every time I saw long braids I wanted to ask if it was you!

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Actually, you wouldn't have seen the hair anyway. I put a pair of pantyhose on my head and stick the braid down one leg, wrapping the spare leg around the base of the braid. They're black opaque hose, so they don't necessarily look like pantyhose. :)

Nanci, that's really interesting about the limit on ability to consume carbs. So my question now is... how does the body do it? If you only eat 2000kcal but you burn 3000, where does that come from after the glycogen is gone? (Please tell me it comes right from my thighs... please) :p

I have this article from the Univ of Tenn, published by the American College of Sports Medicine. It disputes the accuracy of Polar calorie measurement for women. If someone (Nanci?:p ) would like to read it and give us the English language Cliff Notes version, it would be nice. The current versions of Polar use the same methodology (I know there is a better word but I've gone blank).

I just need an email address.

I'd like to see that article. I'll PM you my email address.

Interestingly, I just saw a catalog in the mail (I can't remember if it was REI or MountainGear or ?) that was advertising a WSD Polar, saying it was the "first ever HRM designed for women".

ETA: It's the Polar F4. I wonder if they're using a different algorithm.

"algorithm" - there's the word I wanted but could only come up with arrhythmia. Apparently, Polar has an arryhthmia in their standard HRM algorithm.:p

I'm working on the Clif Notes version right now. Though, I think I'll start a new thread on it so it doesn't get lost in this thread. I have long wondered about the accuracy of Polar's OwnCal, it's nice to actually see some primary scientific literature on this. :)

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

I'll admit my intake was on the low side but I don't take in as much food per hour on a metric course as I would on a full century.

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I was thinking about this conversation during my 200k last on Saturday. Just checking to see if I did better. I never was hungry and my tummy didn't complain.

Breakfast (mostly eaten in car just before we arrived)
- large bowl of coconut granola with 6 oz non-fat yogurt
- 2 cups of coffee with tons of non-fat 1/2 and 1/2 (we got up at 3:30 am :eek: )

During the ride
- 5-ish servings banana Hammer Gel (1 flask)
- 1 Mojo bar
- 1 PBJ (in quarters at different times during day)
- 1 Nectar bar
- 8 med to large strawberries
- 2 bottles Cytomax
- 1 1/2 bottles lemonade
- 1 bottle Gatorade
- 1/2 bottle water

Immediately after
- 1 large grilled turkey breast
- several dill pickle slices
- large serving green salad (mostly iceberg though)
- 1 oreo
- water and diet Pepsi

On drive home
- chocolate shake

I don't remember eating anything else except drinking more water and I did not wake up in the middle of the night starving. I weighed more the morning after the ride than I did starting.

So, did I do better?

I had to make a few guesses but here's what I looked up on Calorie King:

Breakfast (mostly eaten in car just before we arrived)
537 - large bowl of coconut granola with 6 oz non-fat yogurt
80 - 2 cups of coffee with tons of non-fat 1/2 and 1/2 (we got up at 3:30 am :eek: )
616 Breakfast Total (17g fat, 16.2 prot, 95.2 carb)

During the ride
505 - 5-ish servings banana Hammer Gel (1 flask)
190 - 1 Mojo bar
439 - 1 PBJ (in quarters at different times during day)
170 - 1 Nectar bar
46 - 8 med to large strawberries
160 - 2 bottles Cytomax
244 - 1 1/2 bottles lemonade
74 - 1 bottle Gatorade
0 - 1/2 bottle water
1828 Ride Total (37.2 fat, 28.1 prot, 365.3 carb)

Immediately after
429 - 1 large grilled turkey breast
0 - several dill pickle slices
101 - large serving green salad (mostly iceberg though)
40 - 1 oreo
0 - water and diet Pepsi
570 Post-Ride Total (26.9 fat, 66.5 protein, 12.1 carb)

On drive home
560 - chocolate shake
560 Snack Total (26 fat, 11 protein, 73 carb)

3574 Grand Total

You did great on the bike. I think you could have had a few more carbs at dinner though - remember that the glycogen window really likes 85% carbs 15% protein. :cool:

PS: A nonfat peppermint mocha has almost the perfect carb/protein ratio for glycogen replenishment. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dianyla

1828 Ride Total (37.2 fat, 28.1 prot, 365.3 carb)

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Nice maths. ;)

Ah ha! A justification for peppermint mochas! Yahooooooo!!!!! :p

I knew dinner was too low carb but the mayo was already on the bread and I just couldn't put that with the really yummy marinade on the turkey and Jo only left one oreo.;)

Do you think my total calories OK (135 lbs o' dough girl) and just need to alter the ratio of carbs or actually add carbs on top? Ice cream is usually considered pretty high on the glycemic index.

I felt stuffed.

Editing because I forgot a big THANK YOU!

You're welcome. :)

At a glance the numbers look good, but to be sure it depends on a few more details. Do you have any idea what you burned on your ride? Also, how many hours long was the ride and how fast did you go? What are your daily weight-maintenance calories on a non-exercise day?

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Originally Posted by tlkiwi

Nice maths. ;)

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In case you're wondering, the values in parentheses are grams, while the total on the left is kCal. :p

135 pounds plus about 20 lbs in clothing and bike
126 miles at 13.58 mph (9:17 ride time and 11 hours total - lost a lot of time waiting for traffic at intersections).
5,583' of climbing
Light headwinds only for about the last 25 miles south
Daily mtc is prob only 1500-1600 for non-exercise days (I sit in front of a computer otherwise).

Does that give you enough?

Sadie "guinea pig" Kate

There's 365.3 grams of carbs in that lot? :eek: Wow. I was all, like, I don't know what that's supposed to be, but it can't add up to that much. I'll bite my tongue the next time I think of smart-arsing the Calorie King Queen!!

Now, hold still! Stop squirming! I'm trying to attach the guinea pig sized HRM strap! Can your paws reach the handlebars? :D

I'd say your "deskjob day" maintenance is probably 1400-1500. I ran your stats through three different cycling calorie estimators. One said 4000, another said 4800, another said 5200. Probably safe to say you burned around 4500. So your day would stack up like this:

3574 consumed
-4500 burned on bike
-1500 just breathing, digestion requirements, etc
------------------------------------
-2426 deficit

Your onbike rate of eating was perfect. Especially considering that these various articles suggest you can't absorb much more than 200 kCal per hour. And you were eating 200 calories per hour of ride time. Of course you're burning much more than 200 cal/hr, so you have to make it up before and after the ride. BTW, you didn't mention the day before. I always make sure to eat an extra ~1500 calories than I need the day before a big long ride.

Teehee tlkiwi! I couldn't tell if you were sassing me or not. :p

Always safest to assume I have been. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dianyla

Now, hold still!

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It's too tight!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dianyla

I'd say your "deskjob day" maintenance is probably 1400-1500.

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Well, I wanted to say 1400 but I thought everybody would jump down my throat for estimating it too low. 1400 is piddly. Why can't they make Nutty-Buddies in miniature?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dianyla

Your onbike rate of eating was perfect. Especially considering that these various articles suggest you can't absorb much more than 200 kCal per hour. And you were eating 200 calories per hour of ride time. Of course you're burning much more than 200 cal/hr, so you have to make it up before and after the ride. BTW, you didn't mention the day before. I always make sure to eat an extra ~1500 calories than I need the day before a big long ride.

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Huh! I was never hungry and felt like I was on the edge of eating too much. But I notoriously get the hungries fast and furious. As I've said before, the TE Girls' Hill Training Program has forced me to learn to eat differently. Having never done a non-stop ride of this length, I was just guessing.

No, I don't consciously eat more the day before but I don't "diet" and I eat higher carbs than normal. I eat a larger breakfast by a long shot. Something to think about.

I looked at the percentages because that's what my little pea brain can really comprehend.

Breakfast - 26% fat / 11% protein / 64% carb
On the bike - 18% fat / 6% protein / 77% carb
For the day - 27% fat / 13% protein / 60% carb

More numbers for cogitation. I really did feel good so I appreciate the analysis. During the week, I know I run higher protein to carb quite happily but on days with rides longer than an hr (or with a race) I think I am much closer to the above ratios. It will be interesting to see how I do with this formula in the future. Maillotpois is the one who got me to try a flask of gel and it does seem to help. I don't have to deal with eating solid food quite as much (though you can't go gel only).

This really helped, thank you.

Back to tlkiwi for her next smarta$$ remark.;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

Well, I wanted to say 1400 but I thought everybody would jump down my throat for estimating it too low. 1400 is piddly. Why can't they make Nutty-Buddies in miniature?

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But it is true, that is probably all you really need for sedentary office days. Once you add in exercise everything changes. Ya know what, this is what pisses me off about the processed food industry. Serving sizes are all so freakin' high calorie. Everything is geared around the 2000 (or even 2500) cal/day diet, which is great if you're a 5'10" 180 lb man. I know I'd be a size 16 if I ate 2000 calories every single day and didn't exercise. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I don't feel that size 16 is a healthy weight for me personally. As it is I have to be very watchful of high-caloric foods and portion sizes to stay comfortable around size 10-12 and I've still got plenty of fluff reserves on me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

Maillotpois is the one who got me to try a flask of gel and it does seem to help. I don't have to deal with eating solid food quite as much (though you can't go gel only).

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Actually, you can go gel only. My brother and I both like longdistance cycling. I prefer solid food every now and then but I do almost 50% gels at times. When my stomach is on strike I switch to 100% gu. He did the last STP on 30 packets of gu and cytomax, that's all that he can stomach. It really helps to have several different flavor packets so that you can rotate, if they're all the same flavor you'll become homicidal.

Glad to be of assistance! I'm good at the numbers and theory. Just... not so diligent about the personal application to myself at times. But anyway, do as I say, not as I do, right? :rolleyes:

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. I've spent the past 1/2 hour reading it, and will bookmark this one so that I can re-read it when I have more time.
I want to keep it handy for future reference when my mileage increases :) .

I also want to check out the link (http://tinyurl.com/jvcwc) that Nanci added.

The longest I've spent riding my bike (so far) has been 2 & 1/2 hours, and I started riding 2 months ago. I drink A LOT MORE than my husband -- both water & gatorade. The weather out here the past two months has been for the most part, hot & muggy. So, I am sweating a lot!

I can drink 3 bottles of water (24 oz. each) & 16 oz. of Gatorade during a 20 mile ride. Also, a larabar or Clif Bar. On the ride home (car), I'll have a bit more gatorade or water and a fig newton or two.

My breathing (when going up hills) has gotten a LOT BETTER.....but, it's still nice to stop & take a break, (catch my breath/slow down my breathing), quench my thirst & have a piece of the larabar or Clif Bar.
I personally find it necessary to stop & take a break. If I didn't, I know I wouldn't catch my breath and riding would become a horrible activity for me.

I've been drinking a lot of water for over 25 years. I'm not diabetic - my blood sugar tests have always been normal. I'm on some meds that can make my mouth dry, so water does help. But, I just like water ;) .

For breakfast, I'll have stoneyfield low-fat banilla yogurt with Dorset Super Raisin & Date cereal ('luxury muesli') , a banana & coffee with skim milk.

If we're planning a mid afternoon ride, I'll have a cinammon raisin swirl peanut butter & raspberry preserve sandwich on oatmeal bread (maybe 1 & 1/2 sandwiches) and glass of skim milk.

I am DEFINITELY not hungry AT ALL after riding -- (great appetite suppresant). I assume that this is normal? I would be fine with just a piece of fruit and maybe some popcorn for the evening, and have breakfast the next morning. Is this okay to do sometimes?

I should add that, at present, I am 5'1", and weigh 185. (I've lost 105 lbs., since 2001). I DO want to get down to 145 eventually....but, I'm really in no big rush. I wear a size 14, (at least for today ;) ), and I am happy with myself. <<-- it took MANY YEARS to feel OK with how I look, but I sincerely do :) !

I learn so much here on TE :D . A big THANK YOU to all of you who share so that beginners like me can learn!

Peace & Love,

Denise

p.s.

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Originally posted by Dianyla:
Actually, you wouldn't have seen the hair anyway. I put a pair of pantyhose on my head and stick the braid down one leg, wrapping the spare leg around the base of the braid. They're black opaque hose, so they don't necessarily look like pantyhose.

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Dianyla -- How long is your hair?? When I see your Avatar, I always say to myself, "what pretty hair she has"...... I'm just curious. :)

p.s.s.

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Originally posted by SadieKate:As I've said before, the TE Girls' Hill Training Program has forced me to learn to eat differently.

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What's the TE Girls' Hill Training Program? Thanks :) !

Is anyone else routinely starving after medium to long rides? Like, ready to eat the wall paper hungry? I find I often am. I always have a party size bag of organic blue corn tortilla chips (health food!) in my pantry and it gets raided after rides.

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Originally Posted by Denise223

p.s.s.

What's the TE Girls' Hill Training Program? Thanks :) !

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In 2005 my husband Thom set himself the goal of climbing Mt. Diablo once a month. We sucked SK, Jobob, aka_kim and a few others into doing it with us - usually by going out for beer and pizza afterward.

This year we haven't ridden the mountain as much.

Oh and someone asked if you are hungry after a ride. After a ride, I'm not really hungry until the next day. Otherwise I am hungry all the time.

V.

It's so funny - one of my dear friends, a former roommate, is a doctor in the east coast (the one I encouraged cherinyc to go to for her asthma). He's an internist and allergist/pulmonary guy and has been advising me regarding my pulmonary emboli, etc. for the past few weeks. And he's always sending me emails about bike riding - looking for tips and training ideas.

His last email to me was along the lines of "Should I be eating something? I can't ride for more than 2 hours because I get too hungry."

DUH!! He's a doctor!! (Not that they're supposed to know everything, but I'd just assume that the whole idea of fueling your body, 30 - 50 grams carbs per hour, etc. would have filtered through to him!!

Yeah, we can provide health care for *you*, but when it comes to ourselves...:o