hill repeats?

From reading up old threads on how to build speed and climbing strength, I gather the next thing for me to do once my bike comes back from CA is hill repeats. I s'pose I could also use them to learn how to hit the right gear at the right time going into a hill. I should maybe have posted this under "tips", but I figured this is the area where generous experts drop by to help out us newbies. So any tips to offer this newby? Such as:
- what kind of hill should I look for to practice on?
- how many repeats should I start out with?
- in theory, when should I be downshifting? before the hill? just at the bottom of the hill? up a ways when I start feeling the need?

I use a hill that is slightly less than a mile long and has about 3% grade. It's nice if you have an easy way to get back to the beginning of the hill and that doesn't give you too much recovery time. I don't like going up and down the same hill - don't want to irritate the people who live there, so I have a loop. But you could go up and down the same hill if it's a safe place to make u turns.

I do different things. Sometimes I try to keep my cadence really high, which means downshifting as the hill gets steeper. Sometimes I try to stay in a specific gear for the whole hill. You can focus on heart rate - keeping it at a certain level or building in intensity. Once I tried standing for the whole thing - thought my heart and legs were going to explode.

V.

You should downshift as your cadence starts to drop. Beginners may be advised to shift at the bottom of a hill to avoid getting stuck part way up in too hard a gear. But if you are experienced enough to shift on demand, don't go to an easy gear too soon. If you end up in a slightly too hard gear and need to downshift, put in a couple hard cranks, then slack off on the pedal pressure while you shift (for 1-2 pedal revolutions), then resume normal pedaling. I will typically downshift one or two gears as the hill steepens, then stand for a bit, then sit and downshift again, then stand when my candence starts to fall, then sit and downshift again. Now I'm in my lowest gear (I've only got 12 and only 3-4 lower than my flats gear) so I concentrate on maintaining cadence in that gear, but again stand if my pedal speed falls too much (though the standing gets more and more difficult). This is a workable technique if the hill isn't too too long - luckily my longest hill is only 0.3 miles though fairly steepness. For really long hills, staying seated would be more efficient.

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Originally Posted by Veronica

I use a hill that is slightly less than a mile long and has about 3% grade. V.

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How do you know what the grade is? Is it a guestimate or do you have a way to measure it? There's a good hill here that I take on every once in awhile and I'd like to know the grade of it.

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Originally Posted by li10up

How do you know what the grade is? Is it a guestimate or do you have a way to measure it? There's a good hill here that I take on every once in awhile and I'd like to know the grade of it.

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You can get a fancy computer for that, but I have a simple inclinometer which is nothing more that a level (with a bubble in it). I believe it's called "Sky Mounti" and is made in Germany. I know some LBS's carry it, but I ordered mine on-line from Circlecitybicycles.com. Cost is $25.00 plus shipping. It does not fit oversized handlebars (which I have) but I just got a couple of longer screws and added a piece of handlebar tape for padding and it works fine.

Or you could go low-tech. Find/devise a route that had lots of hills. Or ride into the wind on windy days - no glorious downhills, then. :mad:

When I helped my friend prep for her first big ride that had a lot of climbing I had her do hill repeats with me. I have a good hill that is just under a mile and maybe 4-5%... I had her ride it up and down til she said she couldn't do any more... and then we did one more :D ... with me praising her and insisting she COULD do it... and she DID :D Yeah, it hurt, but I really believe you can always physically do a little more than what your brain tells you!

To start I had her set short term goals... such as... we'll make it to the speed limit sign and you can stop to take a drink if need be, but no stopping til then... etc...

DebW is right on the downshifting... try to keep your cadence consistent til you're in your granny gear if you need it... when you down shift while climbing you need to "soft pedal" for that split second shift so you prevent dropping your chain or messing up your chainring too... not a huge deal if you don't occassionally, but over time this will preserve the life of your components...

as you get stronger follow what Veronica said... sprint it til you can't any more one day, bigger gear one day, stand one day etc.

And CELEBRATE your accomplishment... the first time my friend climbed a big hill that is well known we all cheered at the top and insisted that she whoop at the top with us. The sense of accomplishment is deserved... :)

Another good one is to time yourself on the first repeat and then try to keep your time on the next repeats the same. This really requires pacing and dropping your speed on the first one.

Practice standing for 15 seconds at a time, then 30, then 45, etc.

And the idea of doing as many as you possibly can - and then one more - is fantastic. That's one of the things I do when I do these drills with a group I am coaching.

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Originally Posted by MomOnBike

Or ride into the wind on windy days - no glorious downhills, then. :mad:

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well, i'm not sure about that. After riding into the wind for a while,
turn around. If the wind is stiff enough, you will pick up TONS of speed.

Oddly, when I turn around, the wind obligingly turns right around with me and just keeps on a-blowing in my face.

Actually, that's not entirely true, sometimes the wind just dies.

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Originally Posted by maillotpois

Practice standing for 15 seconds at a time, then 30, then 45, etc.

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Thanks for all the good tips! I can vary between doing a fairly easy hill over and over, and practicing gearing on a steeper one, then try to find a steep and long one for some serious practice in a few weeks (can be hard to find around here, though we have a few rolling hills on my side of town). Aside from the downshifting, this sounds a lot like what we've been doing on hill repeat days in spin class -- like today. There I was pumping out my last drops of energy on the final 15 seconds of the final round and the instructor says "Ok guys, let's do another minute on this hill. Whaddya say?" So I took a deep breath, turned the dial up another notch out of sheer stubbornness, and did another minute. Now I wonder what that hill really would've looked like out on the road. :rolleyes:

I also wonder another thing (see quote above). Last fall I couldn't stand more than a stroke or two in spin class. Now I can stand however long and hard the instructor says, but I still can't stand on a real bike on a real hill out on the road. I _used_ to do it all the time back when I was a kid with a 1-speed Schwinn. I've tried up-shifting to have more resistance and thereby more controll. But I still can't seem to do it. Any tips for that, besides just keep trying?

Well, I did what you ladies said and went up and down a hill yesterday. This is the flattest part of England, so there are no real hills around, but I found myself a little one in a quiet neighbourhood where I could go up one side of the block and down the other. After the first three laps, I was getting very bored, but I kept it up for ten laps and felt very proud of myself. Just to keep myself mildly amused, I varied between high cadence sitting and some laps of standing sprints. Still after ten laps I was thoroughly bored and gave up. Any good ideas for how to stay motivated to do more laps?

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Originally Posted by bikeless in WI

I also wonder another thing (see quote above). Last fall I couldn't stand more than a stroke or two in spin class. Now I can stand however long and hard the instructor says, but I still can't stand on a real bike on a real hill out on the road. I _used_ to do it all the time back when I was a kid with a 1-speed Schwinn. I've tried up-shifting to have more resistance and thereby more controll. But I still can't seem to do it. Any tips for that, besides just keep trying?

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I was just coaching a woman with the same issue. She wasn't really aware of it, but she was basically bottoming out at the bottom of the pedal stroke. Be sure you are pedalling a circle when you stand. Be sure you are supporting your upper body very steadily and even pulling up a bit with the arms. (Augh - It is so hard to describe these things in words and not showing.)

Practice on the flats first - not just hills. Get the technique down on the flat roads and get comfortable with it then try it on hills.

I'm curious: is it harder to stand and pedal on a road bike than a mtb?

I don't think it's harder. I'm not likely to stand much on either - usually only on short, as in 100 meters or less rises.

V.

I used to hate standing on either- road or MTB, because I wasn't strong enough and I sucked at it. But I kept at it, standing as much as I could stand on the flats, starting out seated on hills, then standing, then sitting again if I had to, finally standing for entire small hills, or the last parts of medium hills. After a while, (and encouraged to improve my standing strength due to undercarriage pain on LONG rides) it got easier, and easier. Now I feel like I can stand on a hill if I need to, for as long as I need to (except in mountains- wtill working towards that!)

Nanci

Cheers. It's something I just do for a bit without thinking - can be tiring, but never thought about it being tricky. I wasn't sure if it was that mtbs were easier to stand on, or if it was more to do with not having had more than a few months without a bike to ride since I got my first real bike for my 4th birthday and not having had a chance to forget how it's done.

I find standing on super long climbs is a tremendous help. It works different muscles and gives you a real break - also good on the undercarriage as Nanci points out. It gives your upper body a nice break, too, working idfferent muscles there as well. You wouldn't think that was important, but for a super long ride it really is.

One thing I really worked on last year for death ride training was the right kind of standing for long climbs. I had always stood to power over small rises without shifting, etc., so the standing involved a power increase and speeding up. Well, for a longer ride, you need the standing where your speed doesn't increase at all. That's a great trick to work on and it really comes in handy for all day/all night riding with long sustained climbs.

I think standing on a MTB (on dirt) is tough because of the traction issues. But I tend to think everything on a MTB is tougher because I hardly ever ride them anymore.

We can fix that. We try to have an annual ride up Mt Tam every year. About 24 miles of dirt roads and fabulous views. One-third of our Bay Area Trifecta.

This year, Miss Kim will be going if I have to drive to her house and haul her kicking and screaming out to the Bike Bus.

Well, I will try to join you guys. I hate my MTB (first generation Gary Fisher dual suspension), so will probably steal DH's. It's a bit big, but works okay. I used to MTB all the time, then had a couple of endos from which I never mentally recovered, then got a road bike and thought "Wow this is so much faster and more fun!" and never went back. I think my last MTB ride was around New Years 2002 on Bolinas ridge, in the rain, slipping and falling into cow poo. Gee, it sounds so great I wonder why I never do it?? :rolleyes:

Ooh, Veronica, we're just going to have to take her to Briones where you can ride through the poo and fling it at those behind you.

PS - no poo on Tam

[QUOTE=SadieKate
PS - no poo on Tam[/QUOTE]

Well I do know that because I live on it. (Tam, not poo.) Actually, I'm sure there is poo on it, just not on the fire road and not cow poo.

If you hate that MTB, I bet there are people who'd consider it a classic they'd like to have...

I think standing on an MTB is more difficult. There really isn't any technical road climbing- no obstacles to go over while climbing. It takes a ton of strength to deal with logs, rocks, waterbars, etc. while climbing- plus then you have to worry about pedal strike, too!

Nanci

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Originally Posted by maillotpois

Well I do know that because I live on it. (Tam, not poo.) Actually, I'm sure there is poo on it, just not on the fire road and not cow poo.

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But puppy and horse poo don't fling as well.:D

Standing on dirt vs road -- I don't think either one is harder than the other. On the dirt, there are times you have to so I guess necessity makes it easy. It becomes 2nd nature. The whole pedal strike/ratchet thing takes brain power but it isn't always necessary.

Great tips everyone! I love to stand on the hills, it makes them much easier for me. In fact, sometimes it makes me feel as if I'm cheating!

At least on a road bike, you don't flip over backwards if you can't keep going!!

Nanci

The hill I use is a steady incline - probably medium gradient (though I dont know what "percent")

It is 600 metres long and I do reps on it - I have built up to ten. Once I get to 12-13, I am going to move onto a longer hill (about 1 1/2km) of a similar gradient.

Hills are not my strength and it takes a big mental effort to do these.

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Originally Posted by luv'nAustin

Great tips everyone! I love to stand on the hills, it makes them much easier for me. In fact, sometimes it makes me feel as if I'm cheating!

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I'm just up the road from you in Waco. Do you ever ride up here?

There is this stupid little hill on one of our routes. I hated it as a newbie and I've always wondered why it is such an annoyance. It is in full sun but it is short. Had my new computer on yesterday (Cliclo 434) and discovered that the hill just gets steeper and steeper, topping out at 9%. Now, I don't feel so bad about the cuss words I used to yell at it.

LOL Sadie, I cuss too... about 1km from my gate is a very steep hill... its great leaving cause its downhill... but returning home is always tough - its only about 500metres long but its 11%gradient!!! Yup, I def cuss too...

What a good thread for me to read this morning. It is time for me to get some hill smarts. I had to stop mid-way on the first hill on our club ride last night, and it completely deflated my attitude for a while. The good part of the ride was that a large and powerful mtb biker rode with me and coached me before the hills. One problem was that the ride leader had previously told us to avoid the granny gear. The mtnbiker said, you paid for it, use it for now.

So it's hill repeats for me so I can stay on my bike! I'm also finding that I need to get to the club ride early and do some warm-up riding. Hitting that first hill before my lungs and muscles are opened up is the other killer.

For a moment there, last night, I saw some people walking in a park and thought, "walking! What a great sport!":rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by SadieKate

There is this stupid little hill on one of our routes. I hated it as a newbie and I've always wondered why it is such an annoyance. It is in full sun but it is short. Had my new computer on yesterday (Cliclo 434) and discovered that the hill just gets steeper and steeper, topping out at 9%. Now, I don't feel so bad about the cuss words I used to yell at it.

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Were they monosyllabic cuss words? Usually as the hill gets steeper that's what I'm reduced to.

So your new computer was in and is working?? Like it?? Sometimes I don't want to know what the % is. Sometimes it is good.

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Originally Posted by latelatebloomer

What a good thread for me to read this morning. It is time for me to get some hill smarts. I had to stop mid-way on the first hill on our club ride last night, and it completely deflated my attitude for a while. The good part of the ride was that a large and powerful mtb biker rode with me and coached me before the hills. One problem was that the ride leader had previously told us to avoid the granny gear. The mtnbiker said, you paid for it, use it for now.

So it's hill repeats for me so I can stay on my bike! I'm also finding that I need to get to the club ride early and do some warm-up riding. Hitting that first hill before my lungs and muscles are opened up is the other killer.

For a moment there, last night, I saw some people walking in a park and thought, "walking! What a great sport!":rolleyes:

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OMG - the club leader told you to avoid the granny gear??? That's insane! That's what its there for - to spare your knees and make it possible for you to ride up a hill without stopping. Sure, as you get stronger you'll probably use it less. But why not use it now and get yourself some confidence that you can get up the hills. What kind of a club leader dictates what gear you can use?? :confused: :confused:

Reminds me of my daughter. She was so mad Sunday that she had to stop in the steep part of a hill. She wanted to be able to ride the whole way up and was just furious thatshe couldn't. She finally got over it and eased up on herself a bit. I know she'll be able to ride the whole way without stopping soon - and you will too.

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Originally Posted by latelatebloomer

What a good thread for me to read this morning. It is time for me to get some hill smarts. I had to stop mid-way on the first hill on our club ride last night, and it completely deflated my attitude for a while. The good part of the ride was that a large and powerful mtb biker rode with me and coached me before the hills. One problem was that the ride leader had previously told us to avoid the granny gear. The mtnbiker said, you paid for it, use it for now.

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There are times mtnbiking that staying in the middle gear maintains momentum and gives you the traction necessary for short steep or technical stuff; a granny makes you spin too fast and you loose the critical speed.

HOWEVER, you must have the power to use that gear and knees that won't be damaged by it. An ex-pro mtb racer friend of mine who coached on the side, said "They wouldn't have invented gears if they weren't meant to be used." Try to do what the more skilled riders do and you'll clean some stuff you wouldn't have on your own, but take care of your knees first.

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Originally Posted by maillotpois

So your new computer was in and is working?? Like it?? Sometimes I don't want to know what the % is. Sometimes it is good.

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Yep, it is working. Had to drill out the magnet hole for a bladed spoke but let Joe do that as I wasn't sure if the computer was even working. I've had such bad computer kharma. It was actually kind of fun to see the numbers as I rode on the hills. I like the validation of my pain.

I try to keep the cuss words under my breath and I'm usually succesful on inanimate hills. Other times with animate objects . . . :eek:

A pox on that ride leader !! :p

I get up tons of hills in my (great)granny gear that I otherwise could not manage. Sure, I'm probably slower than I would be if I didn't use it - on some hills I'm sure I could walk the darn things faster - but so what?

It's such a huge confidence builder to be able to get up the hill in the first place.

I get so irritated sometimes with this "real cyclists don't use a granny gear" mentality. :rolleyes:

I'm just a mere mortal who wants to save her knees and ride 'til she's 90. :D

Triple chain rings (ie, granny gears) are meant to save knees/enable climbing to happen up hills...

However, you will never go up a hill fast in a granny gear.

Part of my training includes hill repeats, going up in a gear I can just get on top of without standing. This is to increase my anaerobic fitness.

I stop as soon as I think I might possibly be feeling a hint of maybe a twinge in either knee.

Perhaps this is what the club leader was talking about. If he believes your goal is to be able to climb hills, not just get up them (in racing terms), then I completely understand why he said not to use granny gears (and this is why I refuse to have a triple chain ring on my bike).

But you know your legs and your goals. If you want to climb hills fast, you either have to learn to spin in your triple as fast as you can in a the small chain ring... or, you could try what I am doing which is the hill repeats, slowly trying to push a bigger gear - but remaining constantly aware of what your knees are telling you. it will take time - you muscles have to grow and strengthen to support the demands, but slowly and surely it will work.

Good luck, and remember, although it is useful to hear advice (like club leader) always try and get a second opinion (like helpful mtn biker) and always always listen to your body and take your main cues from it.

Good luck

Thanks for the salve to my wounded dignity, everyone!

For now, I think I should use the third ring to get up the hill on the BIKE when the only option I have left is my FEET. But I am going to do hill repeats on my solo rides and get better. I am, I am, I am.

The ride leader is not a bad man at all- but he's been riding for probably 40+ years and is a very powerful rider. I think it's great that he does all these rides for rank beginners, his other advice has been sound - and he's been very supportive of my effort. But sometimes what's really needed is advice from those with similar body mechanics. There are other other newbies on the club rides, but they are much lighter and, though I don't think about it much, much younger, too.

It is kind of a yin-yang thing - simultaneously being the weakest rider and at my personal best at the same time. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

Triple chain rings (ie, granny gears) are meant to save knees/enable climbing to happen up hills...

However, you will never go up a hill fast in a granny gear.

Part of my training includes hill repeats, going up in a gear I can just get on top of without standing. This is to increase my anaerobic fitness.

I stop as soon as I think I might possibly be feeling a hint of maybe a twinge in either knee.

Perhaps this is what the club leader was talking about. If he believes your goal is to be able to climb hills, not just get up them (in racing terms), then I completely understand why he said not to use granny gears (and this is why I refuse to have a triple chain ring on my bike).

But you know your legs and your goals. If you want to climb hills fast, you either have to learn to spin in your triple as fast as you can in a the small chain ring... or, you could try what I am doing which is the hill repeats, slowly trying to push a bigger gear - but remaining constantly aware of what your knees are telling you. it will take time - you muscles have to grow and strengthen to support the demands, but slowly and surely it will work.

Good luck, and remember, although it is useful to hear advice (like club leader) always try and get a second opinion (like helpful mtn biker) and always always listen to your body and take your main cues from it.

Good luck

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This was very well written and very informative. I have a couple of questions though...when you said you stop when you feel a twinge in a knee I'm assuming that you just shift into an easier gear? Or do you mean you just stop doing hill repeats? I'm sure you don't mean to stop altogether. Also, how many times should you repeat a hill? Should I do the first one in as hard a gear as I can without hurting myself and then on subsequent ones use one gear lower (easier)? Or should I use one gear that I can climb the hill with several times? Sorry, but to newbies these things aren't obvious. Thanks.