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Need your views from an international perspective ; sunny islander experiencing too many unfriendly motorists and near crashes despite defensive riding on the roads back home. A general forum thread also had motorists saying that "cyclists have no business on the roads" because we dont pay road tax!!! :mad:
Like to hear your views on riding experiences and encounters with motorists back home. :)
Um, have you seen the whole Crazy Drivers subforum yet?
There is an excellent article posted here on TE about the "Cycling Myths":
http://www.teamestrogen.com/articles/articles_myth1.asp
Skip to the second article for "road tax" in particular. This will give you some idea of where motorists are coming from. There are some good facts to have when dealing with an irate motorists, if you can remember them. Not sure how much this applies in Singapore, but I'm sure some of it will help.
It's my belief that cyclists that irritate motorists are dealing with motorists who have issues anyway and are just looking for someone/thing to take it out on. As a rule, my daily commutes on a busy street are filled with motorists who go out of their way to watch out for me - sometimes to the detriment of the other drivers! LOL Most of my close calls have come from inattentive drivers. But it could be that I live in a biker-friendly city.
A lot has to do with what s/he's calling "Defensive Riding," in my opinion... sometimes what is best is counterintuitive.
HOwever, a *lot* has to do with local culture, and just how crowded the roads are.
Around here, there isn't too much traffic, *and* the locals are accustomed to things like tractors. Slowing down for a bit doesn't bother most people. HOwever, if I"m goign down one of our busier streets, I'm much more likely to get hollered at, and people *have* been hit and had things thrown at them.
In many communities, cyclists are a minority - and that brings baggage. It's human nature that when one group has inherent power over another, they tend to rationalize that that group shouldn't have any rights anyway, and will make up a rationale for it. Since most people they talk to are in their majority, they tend to get it supported. SO, there are groups of A Certain Type who sort of don't understand that a: most riders also have cars so they *do* pay taxes, b: cars are the creatures that cause the damage that we have to pay those taxes to repair; the bikes don't cost the road crews those dollars. They just cause the "eternal" seconds of inconvenience to the all-powerful driver... and usually the link between "road taxes" isn't direct anyway. Do you have "road taxes" on your tax form? No.
Here, I'm surprised that a generally very supportive community is horredously unreflected in the road plans... we have some bike paths but they tend to do things like go right *through* bus stops, or are in the middle of the road (despite people jumping up and down at meetings when they planned the things!?) or have to cross busy streets suddenly or just END wham! (Change may be in the wind... but this *is* Illinois and the politics ... argh...) So I tend to just take the roads... where almost all drivers treat me with respect.
"Riding Defensively" - what does that mean? Riding too defensively sometimes means being invisible and that's worse than being "out there." HOwever, so much depends on the local culture.
It takes only 1 black sheep to wash away all good cycling manners the community is trying hard to promote here. Not sure if you get foreign workers, typically from developing countries such as India, Indonesia etc, who commutes to work, chose either not to observe the traffic rules on the road or use the pedestrian walk-ways to cycle :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanna
Perhaps its high time the local authorities here implement some kind of "law" on cycling, but as it is, we are already ruled by 1001 laws already ;)
Just wondering, does your local cycling / transport community contribute anything towards inculcating a harmonious cyclist/motorist existence ?
Well, most of us are both cyclists and motorists and can see both sides of the story. As a cyclist, there are moron drivers, and as a driver, there are moron cyclists (not as many!):o The number of non helmet wearing, footpath riding, no-lights-in-the-dark cyclists, I've lost count of.
However, I think the situation is exascerbated (sp?) in Singapore, where road taxes are super horrendous. I visited S'pore last year, and found that motorists paid an outrageous amount for road tax. I think a basic 4 cyclinder 2 liter car was something like S$120,000? which was roughly the same in Aussie dollars, or about US$85,000. So say the worth of the car is around $20,000 then you're paying S$100,000 for 'licensing' the car (another word for tax).
I think the Govt should take a proactive role in this, and encourage more people to ride bikes, Singapore is not a really big place, but it's not very bike friendly (no lanes I could remember etc) as it could be. There's no public message about the benefits of cycling etc. In Beijing where I visited this year, it's very different where cycling is really very entrenched into the fabric of the city. Tons of cycling lanes, etc (but very kamikaze cyclists!!!)
My 2 cents worth..
e
Morphine, in Australia, the relatives of Amy Gillett (the elite cyclist who got killed in Germany last year by a young motorist, while training on the road with the Australian team squad), have established the Amy Gillett Foundation, web site here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphine
http://www.amygillett.org.au/content.asp?pid=2872
The main aim of the Foundation is to establish better relationships between cyclists and motorists, and it's patron is Mark Webber (Formula one driver for Renault).
Hope this helps!
e
I ride on the sidewalk.
But there's never anyone walking on it. :)
I live in a town of 14,000, with no public transportation and the usual suburban sprawl (although we're not close enough to any city to really be suburban). Cars are king.
I've been honked off the street even when I was riding in the empty parking spaces downtown on Sunday. I started riding on the sidewalk when we first moved here, because my son was only 9 then and he wasn't that great at holding a straight line. The town trail that is supposed to connect all the neighborhoods (eventually) goes through some beautiful wooded parts of town, but sometimes it follows the sidewalk in the busiest traffic areas. Depending on the time of day, there's no way I'm getting in that traffic. Just not necessary, since no one else is on the sidewalk. ;)
Karen
Living in California, I am aware (as many drivers are not) that the Vehicle Code states that bicyclists have every right and responsibility on the roads as a motor vehicle. That includes taking the lane when there are substandard road widths. I am an aggressive but careful cyclist. Last week I yelled HEY at a guy who moved over in the lane to pass me so he could make a right in front of me. He stopped fast, didn't expect such a loud voice from such a little gal. Most drivers are okay, the worst that I've encountered is getting some bro's coke and ice thrown down my back as his buddy sped past in a 4X4.:mad:
Quote:
Originally Posted by allabouteva
Sorry, Karen, no offense meant.. :o
I should remember that rules are different around the world. In NSW, Australia, it's illegal to ride a bicycle on the footpath that are for pedestrians only, unless you are under 12. There are shared paths, but they have to be designated (signposted).
Generally most suburban footpaths are pedestrian only.
In Croatia we don't have such problem (at least as I know). Usually when I drive and the other motorcyclist comes from other direction he waves or smiles as hello. I see no reason for arguing with motorcyclist, at least they can pass us through without problem.
But with car drivers is another situation cause we don't have special marked paths for bike drivers (there are some but mainly in the capital city where I don't drive). And, unfortunately, there will always be drivers who thinks the road belongs to them
I'm not offended. It's probably illegal for me to ride on the sidewalk, too, but I do it anyway.
On a local forum I read about a guy who was screamed off the street by a police officer in heavy traffic in our capital city. (She said through her loudspeaker, "GET ON THE SIDEWALK." ) The cyclist was the only one moving, so he wasn't blocking traffic. So, I don't believe any police officer is going to run me off. They don't know the rules.
Karen
In my effective cycling class our instructor noted that a cop told him it amazed him... bike riders are rather rare in that they;'re likely to say "I wish laws would be enforced more strictly on cyclists!" How many truckers or motorcycle riders would feel that way about their respective fellow travelers?
I've thought that off and on for years. It's a matter of legitimacy. I wonder if bikes would be considered as a legitimate vehicle with rights and responsibilities if we were really treated like a vehicle by law enforcement. (If I ever got a speeding ticket on a bike, I'd frame that puppy.)Quote:
bike riders are rather rare in that they;'re likely to say "I wish laws would be enforced more strictly on cyclists!"
We'll probably never find out, though...
If you have a police officer point a radar at you, you'll have great grounds for a complaint!!! These things are meant to be directed to cars, not humans.Quote:
Originally Posted by MomOnBike
I don't think so. It's being pointed at a *vehicle* - a bicycle. Violating the speed limit is violating the speed limit. If you want to be treated as a vehicle, then you don't want to make a complaint when it actually happens. (I'd still frame it :-))
What I mean is that the thing can be harmful to humans (wheras they are not to cars and to humans sheltered in cars).Quote:
Originally Posted by Geonz
The appropriate way to find out whether a bike is violating the speed limit is to have it followed by a police car/bike (who can then evaluate the speed) or to ticket it for "excessive speed" if it can be determined by plain eyesight. Not sure about the law in the various US states but there is usually a general clause to ticket speeding vehicles even if their speed is not determined precisely.
Really? The windshield...? what about the ossifer handling the implement? (something I've just never considered)
I think a policeman would have a hard time measuring your speed with a radar gun anyway, from what I understand they usually need a good flat reflective surface to bounce the signal back. Usually they aim at the license plate of the car. (Which is why you see a lot of tinted bubble-shaped license plate covers for sale.)
so I just need to find a tinted bubble shaped bike frame and that would stop the radar??
and Mom: frame it heck - I'd post a pix of it here for Everyone to see! I'd be so embarrassingly proud I got a speeding ticket on my bike!!!
I just can't imagine that the cop could even find a flat surface anywhere on my body! :p
What would really rule is getting snapped by a speed cam on your bike. I would go to traffic cop HQ and get down on my hands and knees and beg for that photo. :D
I imagine you mean "officer" (having found not definition for ossifer in google!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Geonz
Where I'm from there was at some point a concern that radar guns were causing testicular cancer in male police officers. In that same place, I have always seen the officers sitting in their cars to do the radar thing. Here in BC they are always standing outside of their car. Maybe there's a connection.
Anyway I have no idea what happened with their concern...
If anyone has info please let us know!
Just a story
I was riding in down a relatively busy street, in the bike lane which is next to the parking lane. This guy had parked and got out of his car and was walking up the bike lane. I slowed but refused to move over and looked at him with a half "hi, excuse me" and "uhhh, hello?" face. He let out this big exasperated sigh. I was like are you kidding me? He literally had to step aside 2 feet for me to pass. That irked me.
In general, I don't have many problems with motorists. I live in a relatively bike friendly city. The things I run into (figuratively) are
- people turning in front of me (I don't think they judge well how fast a bike can be going)
- people in parked cars opening their doors in front of me
- senior citizens seem to like to honk at you as they come up from behind
- teenagers seem to be the least aware of you, unless they're honking at you and waving and checking you out.
I live in a community where a lot of people can't afford cars (or have lost their licenses!) so bikes are used both by people trying to exercise, and by people who have no other form of transportation. (There is no public transportation). So the motorists in my area are admittedly a little more used to bikes than they may be in some other communities. It's been my general experience that motorists respect cyclists that are predictable and don't ride on inappropriate roads. If you're predictable, the motorist knows what to do. If you stay off the ridiculously complicated, busy roads, you won't be as much of a hazard. Of course there are jerks out there, but a ton of people ride bikes in my town, and a lot use absolutely no common sense. They swerve in and out of cars, from the road to sidewalk and back on the road, run red lights, etc. As a motorist, I get made at them too. I guess what I'm saying is it's a two-way street.
Oh - and the honk - I get that too but I've learned from friends that in most cases it's actually an attempt to be polite and let you know they're there. So I don't take it personally.
Yea, one of my biking buddies knows somebody who had a shirt made that says "I AM NOT A DUI."
One of the things I love about my Xtracycle (which I got back yesterday, YEA!!!, with a new wheel but not the disc brakes yet, but new brake pads) is that it's obviously *meant* for ... even if they can't figure out what, I'm an "intentional cyclist," riding instead of driving.
That's another thing I love about the 'bent. I'm obviously riding because I want to, not because I have, um, social problems. Makes my place on the pecking order a bit higher than otherwise, I think.Quote:
One of the things I love about my Xtracycle (which I got back yesterday, YEA!!!, with a new wheel but not the disc brakes yet, but new brake pads) is that it's obviously *meant* for ... even if they can't figure out what, I'm an "intentional cyclist," riding instead of driving.
:rolleyes: lovely... Almost every cop I pass who's out to catch speeders, points at me with his radar gun. Maybe they were acting silly and not actually firing it?:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog
I don't think they're harmful enough to passing humans for you to worry about it. They have been used for years to time baseball pitches and tennis hits.