Frustrated-Part II

Ok, you might remember 2-3 weeks ago I was suffering from ITBS issues related to the SPD's on my new Roubaix. Well, after another 3+ hours at the LBS Tuesday (and this was my second trip, I was there a week ago for a "pro fit") messing with the cleats and shoes, my left kneecap is now really irritated.
The ITBS has gone away (raising the seat helped, believe it or not). But my kneecaps seem completely unhappy with the pedals no matter how we set them up. I did discover something interesting, I have a leg length discrepancy, my left leg is slightly longer. We shimmed the right cleat and raised the seat appropriately, but it's not helping the kneecap problem. I do believe it helped the ITBS.
I have mentioned speedplays, in particular the frogs because I want a walkable shoe/cleat, but the guys there don't seem overly optimistic or eager for me to try them. I've spent hours googling and doing other research and many people claim the free float can be wonderful for people with sensitive knees like mine. Should I insist on trying them? I am ready to give up on the SPD's altogether. Thanks for your help and encouragement....:(

Are you using the road SPD's, or the mountain SPD's? Mountain SPD's are pretty floaty, and, if you wera MTB shoes, you can walk in them. (Sidi makes a nice MTB shoe that isn't clunky and heavy.)

Do you have a friend who cold loan you a set of pedals/cleats to try, if you want to try the Speedplays?

Nanci

I've been using Speedplay Frogs for many years now, and I am very happy with them.

I do realize that no one pedal is right for everyone though. Did your LBS give you a reason why they thought it wasn't worth trying them? Is it because they have little experience with the pedal, or did they have a real reason for not having you try them?

--- Denise

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have mentioned speedplays, in particular the frogs because I want a walkable shoe/cleat, but the guys there don't seem overly optimistic or eager for me to try them. I've spent hours googling and doing other research and many people claim the free float can be wonderful for people with sensitive knees like mine. Should I insist on trying them? I am ready to give up on the SPD's altogether. Thanks for your help and encouragement....

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I had knee problems. After getting a new fit on my bike... and switching to Speedplays, my knee problems were solved. It took about a month of spinning and pedaling slow... but I fixed the problem.

I SWEAR on the Speedplays... I know that if I hadn't switched... I would have fought my pain longer than necessary.

It's also really nice to have a pedal that you don't have to keep going back to get "fitted" for. The float is great, in my opinion.

Now, other than the pedals and proper alignment there... are you SPINNING? What is your cadence when you ride. If you mash the pedals and don't spin, that can cause issues.

Thanks for the advice. My cadence is 80-85 rpm, that seems natural for me. The pedals are Shimano M-324. They have the platform on one side. I assume they are mtn (I have a recessed cleat) and believe they have up to 6 degrees of float in them, but when I am pedalling that doesn't seem like very much.
The LBS I am going to (and bought the bike from) is considered one of the best in the area. As far as their seeming reluctance to try Speedplays, they agreed it could be an option, but didn't seem gungho about it?? I thought it would be a foregone conclusion that we would try those next. And the owner mentioned all the "upkeep" they require. Quite frankly, any pedal that wouldn't cause me pain at this point would be well worth a little maintanance. :rolleyes:

My brother swears by speedplays. He can't use SPDs because of knee issues. I can't figure why your LBS is so reluctant to help you out here. I think they are worth trying. I've never heard of "upkeep" of speedplays. I'll ask my brother, though.

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As far as their seeming reluctance to try Speedplays, they agreed it could be an option, but didn't seem gungho about it?? I thought it would be a foregone conclusion that we would try those next. And the owner mentioned all the "upkeep" they require. Quite frankly, any pedal that wouldn't cause me pain at this point would be well worth a little maintanance.

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My boyfriend recently went to our LBS to look at pedal options. They talked him out of Speedplays... said they were too hard to get in an out of.

I emphasized and even showed him how EASY they are get in/out of.

He went to the shop today... and apparently tried some out (bought some)... his comment, "These pedals are like night and day. Good call".

Upkeep? What are they talking about? I have had my Speedplays for a year now. The only upkeep I have had to do on them... was pick mud out of the cleats... because I walked in mud in them (more than once) when I stopped during a long ride. Otherwise, there has been NO upkeep.

I have found that the LBS's are hesitant to sell Speeplays and I hadn't a clue WHY? They are wonderful! Easy to use... easy to upkeep... just wonderful really. I wonder if they have a mindset against them... because they are so "different"?

Get the speedplays... you will not be disappointed.

Re: "upkeep", perhaps they are referring to the need to lube them...once a year. That little screw-thingy on the side comes off, you get the little Pedro's grease gun + grease, put a little in there, put the screw back in a viola! You are done. Once, OK maybe twice a year.

I have big time ITBFS and the Speedplays were recommended by none other than Dr Testa. I think he's more knowledgable than the guys at your LBS on sports medicine stuff! :p

Well, I remember the owner telling me that Speedplay pedals needed to be lubed once a month and that the cleats wear out quickly. He claimed they needed to be replaced every year. That's all I recall him saying...:confused:

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Originally Posted by songlady

Well, I remember the owner telling me that Speedplay pedals needed to be lubed once a month and that the cleats wear out quickly. He claimed they needed to be replaced every year. That's all I recall him saying...:confused:

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Once a year seems to be enough on the lube front. And as to the cleats - I do replace my cleats about once a year. That's not a big deal though...

--- Denise

I'm thrilled if my Look cleats last an entire year. Mtb cleats don't get as much wear and I have a couple pairs of shoes so they probably get replaced every 18-24 mos.

I also have Look style cleats and pedals. I wear cleat covers when I am off the bike. Not hard if you don't mind carrying them around. Otherwise my cleats don't last very long. BUT I wanted a larger platform and felt the Look design suited my needs better and for me were easier to get in and out of when I first started riding.

I switched back to Speedplay Frogs after a second attempt at SPDs, including a cleat fit by a physical therapist. The SPDs caused knee tendinitis both times. All gone now with the Frogs. You only have to grease the pedals once a year, and they suggest you put a few drops of dry lube on them after every few rides. I do that, it takes three seconds, no big deal. They are very easy to get in and out of.

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Originally Posted by songlady

Well, I remember the owner telling me that Speedplay pedals needed to be lubed once a month and that the cleats wear out quickly. He claimed they needed to be replaced every year. That's all I recall him saying...:confused:

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Hate to sound like a broken record here... but I have had mine exactly 1 year. I haven't lubed them but once... and the cleats are still in great shape.

So... that's my experience. :D

How long have you been riding? How frequently do you ride? And for how long each time?

How would you rate your knee pain (on a scale of 1 to 10)? Is is minor discomfort when you ride? Does it persist after you ride? Is it a sharp pain? A dull pain? Does it occur after a certain point (ie an hour) in your ride? Only when you climb hills?

It's not uncommon with new riders to have some discomfort when we begin riding. We're putting our body in a very unnatural static position and cycling is a repetitive motion. It takes time to get used to both of those stressors. I'm not saying that new riders should have pain, but I will say that it's common for new riders to have some discomfort as they build strength in all the muscles that support our bodies and our joints.

For example, how would you feel if you sat in a chair with your right arm raised above your head for two hours? Does this mean your chair is wrong for you? No, it simply means you're in a static position for longer than your body is used to. Now if you were to do that again the next three days, by the fourth it probably wouldn't feel so uncomfortable.

Or, how would you feel if you turned your head in circles for two hours. Same idea, your neck and shoulders would probably ache.

Just this week I was working with a woman who's been "riding" for a couple of years, but only rides once every other week. Each time she gets on the bike, it feels uncomfortable to her (both mentally and physically). Her bike fit is good, when we really talked about her pain, she admitted it was only a 2-3 on a scale of 10, and my advice to her was simply to ride more frequently and give it some time.

I'm sure some of the experienced riders on the board could share stories of how they felt after taking some time off the bike. I ride about 20 hours a week, but recently took six days off because of a cold. The first ride back for me was definitely uncomfortable -- my triceps ached, my knees were creaky, and my tush was sore. But it wasn't pain.

But I am not a new rider!!!! I did 2000 miles last year and 1600 the year before that without this kind of problem. This past winter was so mild that I rode the entire season. I know normal aches and pains from riding. This is definitely NOT it. My kneecap is so irritated that it's interfering with normal day to day activities, like stairs. I don't allow it to get to the point of sharp pain, I recognize the precursors and ice, stretch, rest, and take ibuprofen.
Trust me, there is NOTHING about this problem that is normal discomfort!!!!! IMO. joint pain/problems are not normal and should not be taken lightly!

Well, the only thing that changed was your bike- so it must be something related to a different position compared to your old bike.

Nanci

Another thumbs up for Speedplay Frogs here. It is now about a year that I have been using them. I lubed them once. I have not replaced the cleats yet and to be honest I do not know how to tell when they need replacing.

I do not have knee problems. I chose the Frogs because I heard of the extremely easy clipping in and clipping out.

However, I recently purchased a The Firm step aerobics system. Well, I have only used the 35 minute dvd and everytime after I use it the my knee caps feel tender inside. It goes away the next day, but once I do the exercise, the tenderness comes back. I think it has to do with the up and down on the step even at the lowest one. I do plan on using it anymore, but what I am getting at here, have you done anything different in your day to day activities.

Just picking at another straw here.

~ JoAnn

Thanks ladies, at this point I am 90% convinced it's the pedals. But there is no point in trying the Speedplays until the irritation completely subsides.

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Originally Posted by songlady

Thanks ladies, at this point I am 90% convinced it's the pedals. But there is no point in trying the Speedplays until the irritation completely subsides.

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Well... I know I couldn't get rid of my irritation... until I changed pedals. Then, it took around a month of riding on the new pedals to get my knees back to 100%.

Staying with your current pedals won't help the irritation go away.

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Originally Posted by songlady

But I am not a new rider!!!! I did 2000 miles last year and 1600 the year before that without this kind of problem. This past winter was so mild that I rode the entire season. I know normal aches and pains from riding. This is definitely NOT it. My kneecap is so irritated that it's interfering with normal day to day activities, like stairs. I don't allow it to get to the point of sharp pain, I recognize the precursors and ice, stretch, rest, and take ibuprofen.
Trust me, there is NOTHING about this problem that is normal discomfort!!!!! IMO. joint pain/problems are not normal and should not be taken lightly!

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So, you have a new bike? And new SPD pedals? Is there anything else new in your life (another form of exercise, different car or desk chair, new walking or work shoes)? If not, I'd say you need to focus on your fit changes with the new bike and new pedals.

Did you match the geometry of your old bike to your new bike? If not, that would be the first place to start since you rode pain-free with your old bike.

I also agree that if you want to change pedal systems, you should do it now, rather than wait for your pain to subside.

One comment I will make about pedals with more float (like the frogs you want to get), is that if you had ITBS, this may not be the best solution for you. Large amounts of float require you to engage more muscles (and can stress your ligaments, tendons, and joints), because you need to stabilize your hip/ankle/knee to track correctly. While additional float can help those with knee issues, too much float can be just as bad as not enough float.

If you're in that much pain, I'd recommend chatting with a doc or a physical therapist to see if you can determine what the underlying cause is. Cycling in and of itself isn't generally the cause of knee pain. Usually, the repetitve motion of cycling just enhances a pre-existing condition (usually something we didn't even know we had).

My LBS was trying to talk me out of Speedplays too. I've had Speedplays for years. I got them because I was having knee pain and the LBS recommended them as a solution. The knee pain didn't go away and it got worse. My ortho thought I had torn menicus so he went in an scoped my knee, it was synosivitis (an injury to the synovial sac). It was on the outside of my knee, also ITBS was suspected.

I also have chrondomalicia so I stuck with my Speedplays. I ride about 4,000 miles a year.

When I tore my ACL/MCL in Jan. my ortho gave me permission to ride my bike on the trainer for rehab. His first question to me was what kind of pedal was I using. When I told him Speedplays, he said they were the best for knees (not sure if he meant problem knees or knees in general).

I almost 8 weeks acl post surgery. I'm allowed to ride outdoors but I'm not allowed to use my clipless pedals, toeclips or straps or anything that catches my foot in any way. I tried using old mtn bike platform pedals but they locked my feet into a straighter position, one that I'm not used to. They were better with gym shoes but then I didn't get support. If I used hiking shoes I got better support but the lugs caught on the pedals.

Speedplay has platform pedal that snaps over the Speedplay road pedal. It's pretty neutral in design and I can get the float I need and holds my foot without catching it.

One day I tried an experiment on my trainer. I tried pedaling with my toes pointed forward instead their natural position. I immediately noticed pain in the center of both kneecaps.

Checkout the Speedplay website. There is a lot of information on float, design, maintence, etc.

About once a year the LBS lubes my pedals. A few drops of lube every ride helps to maintain the cleats. Also, when you notice flat spots on the springs its time to replace the cleats. I alternate shoes so I can't tell exactly how many miles that is.

Problems clipping out are due to the screws being tighted to tightly, my LBS did this to me once, or dirt or stones between the spring and outside of the cleat. Failure to lube the cleats makes it a little more difficult to clip out.

I started pedaling on the trainer 9 days after surgery and with my leg in such weaken state I could still clip out. I wear the cleat covers whenever I walk in them. If you do get dirt in them its easy to clean out with a small screwdriver.

As far as walking in the road ones I don't find them that uncomfortable especially with the covers on. I once walked 3 miles down a mtn pass, I was afraid to ride, with my cycling shoes on and wasn't in much discomfort.

They say you have a feeling of sliding on ice when you first start to use Speedplay pedals. I didn't experience that feeling.

I also use orthotics in my shoes without them I noticed more discomfort in my knees.

Have you thought about pedal extenders/knee savers? I used to have chronic knee cap pain, I also have ITBS. The pedal extenders solved my general knee problems, stretching has been great for the ITBS.
I did learn (the hard way) to put the extender only on the side with the painful knee.
http://www.bikescor.com/product/knee.htm

These are supposed to be great for women, people with wide hips, nock knees... anyone with a Q greater than their pedal distance.

Sue

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Originally Posted by Kathi

As far as walking in the road ones I don't find them that uncomfortable especially with the covers on. I once walked 3 miles down a mtn pass, I was afraid to ride, with my cycling shoes on and wasn't in much discomfort.

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I *heart* my Speedplays. Years of ballet have really taken their toll on my knees, to the point of where I threw in the towel on dancing and took up cycling instead. I find that I have the strength everywhere else to stabilize myself on the pedals, so I use the X5's. After some experimenting with pedals, I found that I just wasn't built at right angles, and most of the pedal systems I tried I couldn't adjust enough to make them comfortable for me.

I don't find the road cleats to be all that uncomfortable to walk in, particularly with the cleat covers on. To velogirl's point on float, the more expensive Speedplay road models have adjustable float, so if too much becomes an issue, you can customize them. I'm not too familiar with the Frogs, so I don't know that they have this feature, but it might be an option if the degree of float irritates your injury.

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Originally Posted by winddance

...I'm not too familiar with the Frogs, so I don't know that they have this feature, but it might be an option if the degree of float irritates your injury.

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Frogs are a totally free float pedal. There is no adjustment in the pedal or the cleat. For me, that's a good thing. For someone else...

TsPoet, I have never heard of those before. Interesting! We did put washers on the end of one pedal because I was toeing out so much my heel was banging on the crank.
Ladies, thanks so much for sharing all your experiences. I have not been back on the bike since the 3.5 hour fitting on Tuesday. My ITBS is the most inflammed it's ever been. I am doing my PT exercises, stretching/rolling religiously, icing, and taking advil. Once things settle down I am going to stick to a flat pedal for a while, but have completely sworn off SPD's. Then maybe speedplays??? Also considering going to the doctor for a referal to deal with this leg length discrepancy I discovered. Wonder if I might need orthodics instead of just superfeet?

Just had a chat with a PT who is a super-perfectionist biker. She recommended I use Speedplay Frogs, because of my knee and hip stuff. She warned me that they are expensive, but the whole set up (shoes & pedals & cleats) is cheaper than a couple physical therapy appts! And I know I'd need more than a couple if I mess up my knees and hips again.

Songlady: Everyone has a leg length discrepancy. Any good PT will tell you the discrepancy. They should measure it a couple different ways to be accurate. Because it is so common, just about any really good shoe store will be able to put lifts on your Superfeet or Spectrum Stabilizers or whatever insoles you like. The lift should be 1/2 the discrepancy. Overcorrecting will throw off all the compensations your body has used your whole life. You just need enough lift to return you to something your body can compensate.

WARNING!!! Be very very VERY sure you have a large true discrepancy, and not just a pelvic obliquity! Women go in and out of pelvic alignment all the time. A PT can teach you how to correct it, and how to strengthen the muscles that keep you aligned. When my sacro-iliac joint is goofy (and I have wide hips, so it gets goofy easily) my apparent leg lengths are off by a good inch or 1 1/2 inches. When I fix it my true discrepancy is more like the human average, just 1/8 to 1/4 inch. Fixing it is incredibly easy. Strengthening the butt and ab muscles that stabilize the area (and automatically return it to alignment if/when it goofs up) and improving my posture have taken about a year to really get in the groove. My ITBS and knee/hip stuff got a WHOLE lot better, and have stayed better as long as I don't stress them by doing stupid stuff.

Oh, yeah, and a pelvic obliquity can make you toe out, too. An outflare of an ilia will make the foot turn out because it changes the orientation of the hip joint. Also, if you have a slip or rotation which makes one leg appear to be a lot longer than the other, your femoral head might rotate out on the "long" appearing side (making you toe out) to force that foot to pronate and so make the leg act shorter. It's a compensation that's quick and dirty. In either case, if you try to force your feet to point forward the next joint up the chain is most likely to take the stress (knees).

Your body only cares that it keeps your eyes level. It'll sacrifice feet and knees and ITB's and hips and vertebrae (scoliosis type stuff) and shoulders to do so. Eyeballs win any argument.