Knee pain and pedal systems---Zeros, Quattros, Frogs, others?

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03-13-2006, 06:14 PM
salsabike

Knee pain and pedal systems---Zeros, Quattros, Frogs, others?

I'd like to hear from folks who haven't been able to use SPDs because of knee pain. I started with SPDs and, while I liked them, my knees didn't. I used to dance and have chondromalacia, and SPDs gave me anterior/medial knee pain. I switched to Speedplay Frogs and the knee pain disappeared, but I've been advised by a bike fitter/physical therapist that the unlimited float in Frogs makes for an inefficient pedaling path. He refit me for SPDs, and...the knee pain came back, so much as I'd like to make them work for me, apparently I can't.

So I am looking for a pedal system that provides 6-8 degrees of float, since I read in an article on cycling and knee pain that this is the optimal range of float for people with anterior/medial knee pain. So far I've found Speedplay Zeros and Crank Bros. Quattros to be in that ballpark. I would like to hear updates from those of you who use either system--how do you like them? And for those who use Frogs--do you find the unlimited float a problem in any way?

Thanks!
03-13-2006, 08:30 PM
Grog

The Look Keos have three different colors of cleats for the different level of float they give you. I think the black give 0 degree (you gotta know what you are doing to get these) and the others (grey and red if I remember correctly) have more (like 5 degrees and 10 degrees). You choose your cleats/float when you buy the pedals.

I personally now have road SPDs and they have a bit of float, but really not a lot...

Good luck!
03-14-2006, 04:20 AM
DeniseGoldberg

I've used Frog pedals for more years than I can remember. I don't believe that the free float causes an efficiency problem; it simply allows my feet to be in the position that they prefer. I've never noticed my feet moving from side to side, either from a feeling standpoint or with a visual check.

If your knees are happy with the Frogs, why don't you give them a while rather than switching.

--- Denise
03-14-2006, 04:21 AM
DebW

I've been using Speedplay X-series pedals for 5 years now. I love them. No knee problems. I'd previously used Look pedals with 0 float (the very early clipless) and had knee problems. I haven't found the unlimited float of the Speedplay's to be a detriment or problem in any way. I haven't tried to gage efficiency, but that may depend on your riding style and how often your feet twist involuntarily and how much you need them to twist to avoid knee pain. Is this an issue purely an efficiency issue (ie. an optional correction for you) or is limiting the amount of float truly better for your knees? You might try training a video camera on your feet while you ride on a trainer with the Frogs just to see how much your feet are really twisting through the stroke in different situations (spinning, mashing, standing). Maybe limiting float to 6-8 degrees wouldn't change your pedaling at all.
03-14-2006, 04:37 AM
Surlygirl

I use the Crank Bros. Candies and the Quattros and I have BAD knees. I love these pedals. I can easily clip in and out which on other pedals I tried, the amount of force and degree you had to twist really bothered my knees as well as the force I had to use to click in. I highly recommend them.
03-14-2006, 06:23 AM
tatormc

A couple months ago I switched to Shimano Dura Ace pedals and love them! I did try Shimano SPD road pedals but I had lots of knee pain with these as there was not enough float.
03-14-2006, 07:26 AM
Trekhawk

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsabike

I'd like to hear from folks who haven't been able to use SPDs because of knee pain. I started with SPDs and, while I liked them, my knees didn't. I used to dance and have chondromalacia, and SPDs gave me anterior/medial knee pain. I switched to Speedplay Frogs and the knee pain disappeared, but I've been advised by a bike fitter/physical therapist that the unlimited float in Frogs makes for an inefficient pedaling path. He refit me for SPDs, and...the knee pain came back, so much as I'd like to make them work for me, apparently I can't.

hey Salsa - I had SPDs and found they gave me pain (I have chondromalacia). I switched to Quattros and my knees are very happy.

I have been reading Andy Pruitt's complete medical guide for cyclists and from what I can gather the more float you have the less power output so choose the least amount of float you need to keep your knees happy.
03-14-2006, 10:07 AM
bikerchick68

leave it to me to be the odd ball here! :eek: :D I rode Speedplay Frogs and had to STOP riding them... due to too much float. My bike position was wonky as well which played into the problem...

I got fit by John Howard (lucky me that he lives nearby!!!!) and he drastically changed my bike position and told me that I IMMEDIATELY needed to stop riding Frogs... and to switch to a NO FLOAT pedal. Which I did... immediately. :D I have not had any pain since! Apparently my legs have to be completely locked in to keep 'em straight forward and pain free... I'm on Speedplay Zero's now and am a happy, happy and pain free rider...:)
03-14-2006, 10:08 AM
KSH

Quote:

I switched to Speedplay Frogs and the knee pain disappeared, but I've been advised by a bike fitter/physical therapist that the unlimited float in Frogs makes for an inefficient pedaling path. He refit me for SPDs, and...the knee pain came back, so much as I'd like to make them work for me, apparently I can't.

Call me crazy... but what DOESN'T CAUSE ME PAIN... is what works for ME.

Is this guy your regular doctor, or just someone who works at the bike shop and physical therapy?

Do what makes your body feel good. If you didn't have knee pain with the Speedplays, what was the problem? Oh, the inefficient pedaling path. ???? :confused:

I had knee pain, I switched to Speedplays, when I ride my foot typically doesn't float around while I am pedaling... and I can do a good 25 miles with a 17.5 mph average. Sure, I'm not totally hauling butt... but my pedaling is efficient... in my book.

Best of luck with finding what works for you. But I say, go with what doesn't hurt.
03-14-2006, 02:17 PM
Kathi

The only pedal my ortho will allow me to use is Speedplays.

I have chrondomalicia in both knees.

I just had a bike fitting and the person who did the fitting said the best thing to do is check alignment and if there's a problem correct the alignment, with orthotics, shims, etc. Then work with the best pedal.

I have cycling orthotics and Speedplays and ride problem free.

As far as I'm concerned I'm better off letting my knees fall in their natural position and keep them happy.

I'm rehabbing a torn ACL/MCL and could still unclip my weak leg from the Speedplays.

Proper training, ie. building up base miles, weight lifting, spinning a high cadence also keep my knees happy.
03-15-2006, 05:14 PM
salsabike

Thanks for your responses

The fitter/PT is independent--not associated with any bike shop, which is exactly why I went to him in the first place. He's a very well regarded local cyclist, cycling coach, PT, and bike fitter--and all around good guy. His recommendation was just meant to give me as stable a pedal path as possible for efficiency on hills and such. We both hoped that with a very good fitting, the SPDs wouldn't cause knee pain--I expect he will be the first to agree that pain is bad, so lose the SPDs.

Thanks to you all for your info. It is very useful and much appreciated. I will for now go back to the Frogs, and will probably try the Quattros eventually.
07-06-2006, 12:43 PM
RedCanny

thank you for this topic

Hi Ladies- thanks so much for posting on this. I've been having some knee pain lately in my "bad" knee (ACL & meniscus surgery 11 yrs ago). Haven't yet figured out what exactly is the culprit, but perhaps it's my SPDs. I haven't used them for long, but I recently took some longer rides than usual. I may just try a different pedal, and then see how the knee feels.
07-06-2006, 01:22 PM
KSH

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedCanny

Hi Ladies- thanks so much for posting on this. I've been having some knee pain lately in my "bad" knee (ACL & meniscus surgery 11 yrs ago). Haven't yet figured out what exactly is the culprit, but perhaps it's my SPDs. I haven't used them for long, but I recently took some longer rides than usual. I may just try a different pedal, and then see how the knee feels.

Also make sure that you are not mashing your pedals... keep your cadence high (90-100). Mashing on the pedals can cause knee pain too.
07-06-2006, 07:51 PM
Jen Jen

One of my friends had road pain with SPDs, but it was just a poor adjustment. He tinkered with it on his own, and is pain free. Have you worked with a LBS to make sure you've got everything adjusted correctly? I'd also say that your front/rear positioning of the seat location could contribute too...
07-07-2006, 06:13 AM
HappyAnika

I'm still a newbie, and some of this discussion is over my head. Can someone clarify for me: I'm assuming that float is how much you can move your foot side to side when clipped in? I had no idea there were so many pedal systems available. I thought I pretty much only got to choose between the SPD and SPD-SL (mtb vs. road), so I went with SPD-SL.

I had an ACL reconstruction and meniscus repair in my rt. knee about 7 years ago and it continues to be problematic under anything less than ideal conditions. When I went clipless I was having some pain in the front of my knee. Moving my saddle forward just a smidgen eliminated this completely by putting less stress on the front of the knee. So this is working for now, but if it changes in the future its good to know there are more options.
07-07-2006, 09:10 AM
Pedal Wench

Speedplays have two basic models - the 'X' series, with unlimited free float, and the 'Zero's' which let you adjust the amount of float. This eliminated the 'ice-cube' feeling that the 'X' series give. I have the Zero's, and my knees love them!
07-07-2006, 01:17 PM
Kathi

HappyAnika and RedCanny when you had acl/menicus repair was you graft a hamstring/patella graft or a cadaver graft. My ortho recommended a cadaver graft for me, he said that with a hamstring or patella graft I could have pain from time to time.

FWIW, I had acl surgery on Feb 28th and started riding with clipless on June 7 and notice no pain when I ride. Apparently, the speedplays are still keeping my knees happy.
07-07-2006, 02:22 PM
HappyAnika

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kathi

HappyAnika and RedCanny when you had acl/menicus repair was you graft a hamstring/patella graft or a cadaver graft. My ortho recommended a cadaver graft for me, he said that with a hamstring or patella graft I could have pain from time to time.

FWIW, I had acl surgery on Feb 28th and started riding with clipless on June 7 and notice no pain when I ride. Apparently, the speedplays are still keeping my knees happy.

Mine was a patella graft, but I swear most of my pain is due to my meniscus. A year after the initial surgery I had to have another scope just to work on the meniscus which was continuing to tear. Almost had another scope a couple years ago but I toughed it out and the severe pain ceased, however its always somewhat troublesome. I see you're in CO too, and your surgery was in Feb, was it skiing? Mine was. You must be recovering well, hopefully the cycling is helping! The stationery bike has always helped my knee and I just started riding "for real" this spring, so far so good.
07-07-2006, 04:05 PM
Kathi

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyAnika

Mine was a patella graft, but I swear most of my pain is due to my meniscus. A year after the initial surgery I had to have another scope just to work on the meniscus which was continuing to tear. Almost had another scope a couple years ago but I toughed it out and the severe pain ceased, however its always somewhat troublesome. I see you're in CO too, and your surgery was in Feb, was it skiing? Mine was. You must be recovering well, hopefully the cycling is helping! The stationery bike has always helped my knee and I just started riding "for real" this spring, so far so good.

Yes, it was skiing, well, I ran into a closed rope at the Super B lift at Copper. It's a bungy cord and it catapulated me backwards. My skis tracked on the inside edges and I didn't stop until my legs could stretch no farther.

I tore my right MCL/ACL, lucky I didn't hurt the left one too! My ortho let me ride the trainer right after the injury. He wouldn't do surgery until the MCL healed so it was 6 weeks on the trainer. I was back on the trainer 9 days after surgery and riding outdoors 4 1/2 weeks after surgery. However, I was not allowed to use clipless pedals until June 5. Speedplay has a platform pedal that clips over the X pedal so I used those. I climbed Vail pass and did Turquoise Lake with them.

I managed to maintain my cardio conditioning and rebuild strength. It was the muscle endurance that took so long. It must be coming back, I rode 40 miles today and don't feel like I need to sleep for hours.

I just finished my PT sessions, but will continue the exercises. In the fall I will start a maintence program that Health South offers. Ortho says I will ski this coming winter.

My partner tore his ACL/Menicus 4 years ago and he complains about pain too. He has Look pedals with some float. He adjusted the float and feels better. He just did Ride the Rockies and the knees didn't bother him that much.

What part of Colorado do you live?
07-07-2006, 06:16 PM
GreenLady

I have the Speedplay Zero pedals, and it was very nice to be able to adjust the float. Apparently a lot of riders with knee pain use them. I haven't had any trouble yet.
07-09-2006, 05:59 AM
RedCanny

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSH

Also make sure that you are not mashing your pedals... keep your cadence high (90-100). Mashing on the pedals can cause knee pain too.

Thank you- I've been getting better at spinning- though DH made a recent observation that his cadence is still faster than mine.
07-09-2006, 06:05 AM
RedCanny

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyAnika

Mine was a patella graft, but I swear most of my pain is due to my meniscus.

Mine was also a patella graft. Doc also ended up making an additional incision to go in and clean up the mess that was my meniscus... so most likely I don't have a lot of it left!

Surgery was 11 years ago, and until now I haven't much of a problem with it, even during/after the additional 2 years of rugby play and several mountaineering trips (as long as I did sufficient resistance training).

I went to LBS yesterday & had them adjust the angle set on my cleat, so we'll see how that goes.