have Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer or Frosty the Snowman as a friend?
Veronica
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have Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer or Frosty the Snowman as a friend?
Veronica
Without hesitation, Rudolph. What's that mean ;)
Rudolph.
Frosty has to hang out in freezers and I can't handle the cold.
I don't think it means anything. :D It's from a list of Christmas related discussion questions another teacher gave me today. My students mostly chose Rudolf.
One I'm going to ask next week: Would you rather have $100 to buy presents for yourself or $1000 to buy presents for others?
Veronica
I have to choose between preparing for imminent loss, or bright lights all night long? Can I have the Abominable Snowman?
None of the above. This doesn't apply to me and would not have been allowed in the district where I taught!
I think Rudolph might do slightly better here than Frosty. Frosty would make a mess of the carpet.
Frosty, for sure. Not only because I am more of a winter girl, but I hate when company hangs around too long and he would have to head north come spring!
And I would always rather buy for others.
I think we have the same book at school. My coworker next door has it. I love that book, and it gets great conversations going with our kids.
Frosty for sure as we hear (see) more about Rudolph and it would be a change. And I like white. :)
As for money, I don't know. Lately I've given to a lot of people as we have many charity causes we support at work and home. So if I can feel shelfish (without guilt) I'd take the 100$. But would probably with the household to each get us a little something. hihi
I'd take the $1000 for others and give it to our school social worker who coordinates a huge project for our kids and families.
As far as presents go, I'd take $1000 and be able to buy gifts for other people rather than IOUs. December is always tight because of when registration fees are due. :/
neither I’m going with dr. seuss’s 'cindy-lou who' from 'how the grinch stole christmas' :)
….and since I don’t need much I'd send the $1000 to some of my favorite charities
I'm sorry if I sounded flip in my above post. But, this time of year gives me a good dose of feeling like "the other."
I would take the $1,000 - and I bet I could then find someone to buy gifts for :-)
Crankin, FWIW it raised my eyebrows too. They had mandatory religion classes in one of my high schools, your choice Roman Catholic or Congregationalist, but that was 40 years ago. Same school where girls had to take Home Ec and boys had to take Vo Ag. Even though neither of the shows referenced has any religious content that I can remember, they do refer to Christmas, and it doesn't really seem appropriate.
That said, the money question seems easy, doesn't it? Whether it's friends, family or charity, I wouldn't be giving the money away to anyone I wouldn't have been gifting anyway - just giving larger gifts?
My issue is that most people in the US say, "Oh, but Frosty and Rudolph aren't religious, they're secular." Yes, Frosty and Rudolph are obviously not in the Bible, but the stories are about Christmas. Then there are the people (and this includes a lot of those I question) who say that trees and wreaths are secular, too. Ah, no. If you actually celebrated the religious aspect of Christmas, maybe you would know this. I know most enjoy celebrating the time of year with family, exchanging gifts, etc. But, that is not the true origin of Christmas. I don't want to take away anyone's fun, but none of this should be in the schools.
My kids went to an elementary school where they were pretty much the only, in their own words, "true Jews." They meant the only ones with 2 Jewish parents, who went to religious school, and celebrated only Jewish holidays. In the beginning, some of the teachers thought it would make them feel better around this time of year, if they slipped in some Chanukah themed pictures when the kids were coloring in the early grades. Personally, I let them handle it all on their own, but there were a few times when each of them chose not to participate in something.
Then there was the art teacher who asked my oldest son if he was allowed to do a Thanksgiving activity :eek:. Yes, a person with a master's degree asked a 9 year old this. I tried not to interfere, but I think that some of the educators just did not get it. We solved it by moving to a town with more awareness and more diversity, but they were in middle school by then.
:) - very much so… the whole holiday was adopted, or should one say co-opted, adapted from Paganism to make Christianity more palatable to people who followed Pagan religions… It's really celebrations of the Solstice and one brings those green living things that can survive the winter into ones home (pine boughs and trees, mistletoe, holly) to ward off the darkness and celebrate the return of the light.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muirenn
(no, I'm not Pagan, nor am I Christian, or an adherent to any religion for that matter, but I did study this in botany class in college - fascinating. You don't even want to know where the tradition of garland came from… eeewww)
Well, I knew the tree stuff had a religious basis, somewhere, but I have heard other explanations.
Murienn, what you get in New England depends totally on what town you are in. The place I spoke of is about 15 miles north of here, on the border of NH. Very insular and sort of blue collar town where not a lot of people ever leave. The educated people sent their kids to Catholic school, and when we moved here in 1990, it was a bit economically depressed. It was pretty and affordable. Each little town here is like a fiefdom all to its own!
Wasn't it from the plague? So many dead and dying that you'd want a garland around your neck to ward off the smell? Surfs off to look this up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
Some biblical scholars say that your Christ (nice guy, by the way. I'm Jewish but not practicing. But I like that whole taking care of the poor, the least of those, he's a cool, radical Jew) anyway there are those who say he would actually have been born in Spring or Summer. But how do you get Romans for example to quit celebrating Saturnalia with wild abandon?
Ya gotta have something else in winter. :cool:
I read garland had no holiday significance at all in it's origin - it was, at first, the stringing of the guts of one's slain enemies around a tree to celebrate your glorious victory and warn off anyone else who might wish to fight with you…. nasty stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
yeww. I think I will stick to der Tannenbaum (a fir tree). paegan yes. Winter solstice yes.
O Tannenbaum is German musik here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhQ_hBT7lA not the best example. And it deosn't mention about Christmas or Christ child. You can read the lyric. Run it through google translate for some good laugh.
So I'm tad confused. How did O tannenbaum become a song about a Christmas tree?
I'll pick Rudolph. He is the best.
probably the same way a song about a medieval prostitute (Greensleeves) turned into a song about a certain baby (What Child is This?)…...Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingcat
Definitely Rudolph. Although Frosty is not that bad in animation (every costume snowman or gingerbread man is scary as all heck though)
changed my mind....sorry cindy-lou who....now i'm choosing as a friend, heather :)
http://vimeo.com/81447425
For a winter holiday, you can't beat Hanukkah. Start with one little candle and by the end...wow! Especially if you have a crappy little menorah and the candles are too close together you've got some significant fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek420
Right now, we have the opposite: an aging fake tree, and every few days another section of lights poops out.
^ yeah ... Am I allowed to say I'm just generally fed up with religion, but the Easter Vigil Mass was always just breathtaking, just like the above except for all in an hour, from total darkness and spare words, to a few candles and chanting, to blazing lights and choral music with instruments.
I miss the ritual. A lot. It's just everything behind it I can't take .....
And ANOTHER thing... Humbug ... If you ask someone what they want for Christmas and they say "nothing," do them the courtesy of taking them seriously. What most people want is for the holiday to just be f***ing OVER without the pressure of either buying something for YOU, or pretending to like your gift. Humbug. If someone is celebrating a religious holiday, that's got nothing to do with the gifting, and one less person to worry about gift exchange is that much more mindfulness to devote to their religious observance.
I am glad I am not the only one who just waits for the frenzy to be over. For awhile, I got swept up into it, mostly because of work colleagues. I have not done much at the synagogue in the past 5-8 years, as I told my rabbi that my bike is my new religion... that said, I do still celebrate holidays and would never deny who I am. There are certain rituals that I like, too. But, for me, a lot of my participation was social, it just happened to be at services.
This year, I feel no stress at all. The clinic I work at has at least 50% Jewish therapists and the director is Jewish. The admin people are all in a frenzy, but I can ignore their chatter. There's a few minor decorations on the receptionist's desk, as well as a menorah. Unlike my last job, none of my clients have tried to give me gifts, as they are a bit more aware of this stuff. All I know is that I made my last trip to the grocery store yesterday, until next Friday, and G-d forbid I have to go to any type of store in the next week. This kind of inconvenience does sort of irk me, but I am looking forward to a little Chanukah celebration with my son and DIL Sunday, as well as Chinese food on the 24th, and dinner with our friends on Christmas.
Somewhere I read that you don't really know a person until you see how they handle unravelling last years knotted up Christmas tree lights :)Quote:
Originally Posted by malkin
Tiny condo with a puggle doggie so no real safe place to put a menorah, we have an electric one. While that sounds tacky it's actually quite nice, looks like a series of tea candles.
Is this true? Do most people just want it to be f***ing over?Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
I was raised catholic, but religion has had no meaning for me for decades. I still enjoy Christmas. I like looking for gifts to give people, and I like giving gifts and I hope that people like what I give them. I like receiving gifts (but do not expect anyone to give me anything just because I gave them something). I like that the holiday provides an opportunity to spend time with family and friends. I like the food.
I understand and respect that many people do not celebrate the religious aspect of Christmas. I was actually happy to find several stores at the mall that were not playing Christmas music when I was out shopping the other night. If someone told me they did not want a gift from me, I would respect that.
For me, the basic meaning of the holiday is peace on earth, good will towards people, regardless of their beliefs. It can be hard to remember that through the all stress (most of it due to continued sh*t at my job), but I do try to remember it.
Last night I passed a house with tons of Christmas lights around it, including lights going up and down a very tall tree in the front yard. It has nothing to do with anything in the Bible, but when I see something like that, I think the people who put them up did it to celebrate their joy in the season. Whether I agree with the reason for their joy, I can still appreciate that they want to share it with others.
I don't know about most people, but I don't. I love the holiday season for the reason listed above. And I am absolutely not religious. I have to admit I was saddened by how this thread became a rant against the holidays, however, folks are entitled to express themselves. As far as I am concerned, all religions are mythology.Quote:
Originally Posted by ny biker
I have never worked in a school district that prohibited holiday themed events. Maybe we're just not progressive enough. All of my students seemed to enjoy the school wide festivities and the team discussion question that I started this thread off with. Religion comes up in so many great novels that I teach- Letters From Rifka, Number the Stars, Esperanza Rising, The Ballad of Lucy Whipple and Dragon's Gate immediately come to mind. Those are things my students are required to read. Maybe those novels should be banned from schools as should anything else that mentions religion.
How can you teach tolerance if you don't teach about cultural differences?
I love the Dickens quote where nephew Fred says something about how this is the one time of the year when people seem to treat others as if they were like themselves and not some different race of creatures altogether. I know it's really about class society in England but I extrapolate that sentiment to include all humanity. And it's a feeling I wish we could hold year round.
Veronica
+1.....also i search for universal truths in all religions. One of my biggest joys in this life is finding these parallels, finding the common ground we all share regardless of our faiths, traditions, practices. I prefer to focus on the similarities we humans have, instead of trying to find things that divide us.....Quote:
Originally Posted by ny biker
i love giving to others and i also do more random acts of kindness this time of year to strangers both with no expectations of something in return.....and my spiritual being is secure enough to not let others affect it in a negative way whether with words or actions.
what I came across yesterday
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8581/...46c6b895_b.jpg
happy holidays to all who are celebrating them!!!!
For me, I've always enjoyed Christmas and I do celebrate the religious meaning of it. I don't have any family, I don't enter into the apparent gift buying frenzy that so many do this time of the year - I don't really have anyone to exchange gifts with and haven't for some years. While I love Christmas music, I don't play it until Christmas Eve as I don't want to burn out on it. When I still was still putting up a tree I didn't do it until a couple days before.
There are many different ways that people celebrate the season, and for many different reasons - some religious, some not and it is all good. I appreciate all of the different ways that people observing the season. In a way it is like I am standing outside of things when I watch how those who have families celebrate the holidays. At one time this was depressing, but I've learned how to deal with it over the years. I usually spend the actual day with friends, and I focus on enjoying our time together. Instead of buying gifts, I make a few treats I know they love and won't/can't make for themselves. No stress this way, and I HATE shopping at the best of times but I do love to cook. It works :-)
I hope maybe someone out there will understand what and how I feel. What NY said (and this is not directed at you, NY, in any personal way) represents *exactly* what I mean. In fact, thank you, NY, for stating what I could not articulate! People get a good feeling about Christmas. They get to exchange gifts, be with family, and go to parties. The whole country shuts down for a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by ny biker
You are right. This is not the meaning of Christmas. Christmas is a religious holiday, that celebrates the birth of Christ. It is impossible for someone who is not Christian to celebrate the "secular" aspects aspect of the holiday, because it is not a secular holiday. Americans, and perhaps in other places, too, mostly celebrate the secular aspects. That doesn't make it right.
Veronica, I am sorry this makes you sad. I taught all of the books you mentioned to my students. But they are about cultural and ethnic issues, as well as religious persecution. They are not promoting the celebration of one over the other. I know you would never intentionally promote one over another, and I respect you as a teacher and a person. This has probably never come up where you teach, because there's probably no non-Christian students, or very few, who just keep their mouths shut. I do live in a very progressive area, but not all of the towns around here have significant religious minority populations. It varies. At least I don't have to explain myself everywhere, as I did in AZ, 25-30 years ago.
I have a feeling that the way I feel is somewhat akin to the differences in perception about what happened in Ferguson between whites and blacks. I am not sure if someone who isn't Christian can understand, and I don't in any way begrudge anyone's celebration. But, it would be nice for others (not necessarily you guys at TE) to get it.
I've always felt that Christmas is a religious holiday, and if I don't practice the religion, there's not much for me to celebrate. One of my friends called me a "devout agnostic."
When my parents were alive, I spent Christmas with them and enjoyed it. They were religious, and it was an important holiday to them. After they died, I've done only those activities which I feel obligated to do because of friends. At times, the social obligations (mainly parties) have been overwhelming enough that yes, I was glad when it was over.
I try to be very tactful in commenting on what other people do at holidays but sometimes it is hard. One friend (who is not religious) attends religious services at Christmas to hear the music. She regularly complains about the quality, and I have to bite my tongue. My father was a minister so I know how much work goes into the whole thing. Dropping in once a year and offering a negative critique seems rude. As a child, I was annoyed by people who only turned up for the "big" holidays. Obviously I was lacking in Christian charity even then.
Crankin, I think I have some understanding of how you feel. Having said that, a lot of my Jewish friends do all manner of Christmas-y things, and many aren't observant at all. I stick to "happy holidays" this time of year, and try not to make assumptions about what other people might be doing for the holiday, or how they feel about it.
There is a wide range of reactions to holidays, and I have no quarrel with any of them.
I think Christmas is going down the path that Valentine's Day and All Hallows Eve have already trod, albeit a bit more slowly. Those also began as religious festivals. Early Christian leaders tied the birth of Jesus to already existing pagan festivals. It's more likely he was actually born in September. Yes, many Christians still celebrate Christmas as a Christian holiday, but many people embrace the holiday without the religious aspects.
I'd have no problem with the whole country shutting down for non Christian holidays. I'd love more time off! :D Bring 'em on.
It's true that majority of our students are Christian. Our district population is mainly black, Hispanic and Filipino. I do have 4 Islamic families this year. For 4 years in a row I had a Hindi family. Awesome kids - a brother and sister who looped with me. I got Christmas cards from the kids every year, but I'm pretty sure they themselves did not celebrate Christmas.
Veronica
I don't care much about the whole thing....just that it gives me extra days off. I'm on vacation for 2 weeks, costing me only 4 days (3 personal and 1 overtime done). Good enough for me. :D
Just want to say that the inclusiveness of this forum made it feel safe enough to express my opinion, without fear of being flamed!
And Pam, yes, there are plenty of Jewish people who put up a tree, etc., because, I think they are appreciating the fun and secular things about the holiday. But, if they dug a little deeper, they might find some traditions in their own religion that were just as nice. I am not that religious anymore, and even when I participated a lot more, I belonged (and still do) to a very progressive, non-affiliated synagogue. It provided a wonderful setting to teach my kids values, in a non-dogmatic way.
Maybe it's from not being raised in any religion, but I feel I have the freedom to be happy and celebrate with anyone that I am in the company of and share in their traditions as much as they care to share them with no guilt about being disloyal….. I can't say as I've ever felt unwelcome either - in general I find people love to share their customs and are happy to have you, even if you know little - They'll help you to know what's happening and forgive your faux pas as long as you show that you are interested and are willing to try things. While there are certainly some religious communities who are not particularly welcoming of outsiders, most people are and most people don't think you need to be a convert to celebrate with them.
Going to the Shinto and Buddhist shrines on New Years Eve in Kyoto was a blast. I can only hope to have many more experiences in my life like it.
I'm one of the ones sort of waiting for it all to be over. Thats sounds grumpy, but it's not that I don't enjoy some aspects of Christmas. I'm as atheist as they come, but I've still always felt that the most religious songs and rituals around Christmas are the most appealing, maybe because they carry so much meaning. Norway is full of traditions and songs linked to the pagan origin, but I was raised on and love the big, stirring Christian hymns. The newborn child, the great hope, his awful fate, the ultimate sacrifice - this is an extremely powerful story, no matter if you believe in it literally or not. And I think precisely because I empathise with the big emotions that underlie Christmas, I'm always disappointed. I never do turn into a better person, just because it's Christmas. Nor do my family. I dearly love some of them, I put up with some of them, and I have complicated, unsolved issues with a few of them. But none of this magically improves just because it's Christmas and goodwill to all men, especially the loved ones you're supposed to be having a wonderful time with.
Much of this is connected to it being mid-winter, a time of year when I am at my most moody and sentimental and least optimistic, and also indoors a lot, watching tv and reading the newspapers. If it happened in mid-summer, when I'd be too busy running around outside to pick up on everybody else's idea of what Christmas should be like, I'd probably wouldn't give a hoot ;-)
To end in a positive note - I positively LOVE getting gifts from friends, and giving them. They are never obliged to give me anything, so a gift truly means they like me and want to give me something. The same goes for going out to concerts and suchlike.
I'm with the waiting for it to be over group. We live one mile away from the mall and the freeway, so from Thanksgiving to new years, it is a major ordeal just getting ANYWHERE. I didn't come from a religious family, so I grew up feeling very confused about the holiday. As a kid, I did enjoy giving and receiving gifts, but had trouble attaching any meaning to all the hoopla. I enjoyed making a Christmas experience for my kids when they were little, but now that they are grown, it just seems like a big, flashy ordeal which gets worse with each passing year.