E-Bikes thoughts, comments?

Hey all, I was amazed at the number of E-Bikes at Interbike this year. It seemed like at least 75% of the bike MFG's were showing an e-bike - and not just commuter bikes. They had Mtn Bikes, Fat Bikes, traditional road bikes.
Do you see many in your world? I haven't noticed that many in Boise but I could be living under a rock. The fact that so many companies were pushing them
makes me wonder if the sales are strong.

They just seem so bizarre to me. I have heard that some people are campaigning to keep them off of trails and back country areas. I can't fathom the
purpose of an electric motor on a fat bike. I would hate to be 40 miles from nowhere and suddenly hear the buzz/whine of an electric bike.

The Bike Hermit calls them the "exercise free" bike

I should note I do see some positive

1. when I am older (perhaps in my 80's and 90's) I would appreciate the boost
2. perhaps they do take a few cars off the road as people who don't want to sweat may opt for an ebike to commute

Don't even get me started on electric "push" scooters. I just about got taken out twice at the show by a young women zipping around - INDOORS on
a stupid electric scooter :eek:

Can't speak to having them on mountain bikes, but as a middle-aged, out-of-shape woman, I would love some pedal assistance on my bike for hills or even just getting through red lights faster. Nothing beats time in the saddle, as they say, but it's very humbling and discouraging when one is barely able to ride a few miles and one spends their time walking a bike up what most would consider not steep inclines. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, a little boost in those rough patches would allow an older or just getting back to it cyclist to enjoy riding. And don't forget those who have/had injuries.

I think there should be limits, the battery technology is getting better and motor is getting better. LiFePO4 battery stores incredible amount of power. You can actually compare it to energy released from gasoline. Simply, the power of electric motor with battery is getting closer to gas powered engine. Because of this, I think they should be banned from MUT trails, single track and mountain bike trail where gas powered motorcycles are not allowed.

I really like the idea of e-bike for commuter and maybe we can get more people to take alternative means of transportation instead of cars. Natural resources used in commuting with e-bike is like getting well over 1000? miles per gallon. I've even considered it for commuting when I lived in the city.

We just need to get people to open their myopic view of what transportation is all about. Styling of ELF is well... I'm not fond of it. But I really like the idea of what it is. I would like to see more of them instead of a regular car.

I think in some European standard, I have to dig in and search (quite a bit), it requires that you have to be pedalling for the motor to kick in. And the amount of power the electric motor has to be dependent on how much power you yourself put out. No pedalling, no power kind of thing.

I’ve seen a few e-bikes here in the Napa valley the last few days. There is even at least one resort here that has them available for guests. I also see them on the beach bike path and as commuters at home and I see a lot of e-scooters in the beach areas of west L.A. too. I have no problems with either e-bikes or e-scooters. I see it as a positive trend for commuting as anything that lowers the environmental impact of conventional automobiles is desirable. The smaller battery packs of e-bikes, scooters etc give them the ability to be charged via solar power too.

Over the last couple of years there has been a HUGE sales increase of e-bikes in China in particular and Asia in general. That may be one of the reasons for increased manufacturer awareness here.

I have mixed feelings. An e-bike might be a good alternative when I am much older.

They are banned where I live (NYC) primarily because some food delivery workers on e-bikes are a real menace. There are lots of takeout deliveries where I live, and they scare me several times a week with reckless riding. The ban hasn't stopped people buying and using e-bikes.

I can see why they are viewed as hazardous in a crowded urban area, and perhaps on MUTS. In general, I think they are a good option for some people.

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Originally Posted by rebeccaC

I’ve seen a few e-bikes here in the Napa valley the last few days. There is even at least one resort here that has them available for guests. I also see them on the beach bike path and as commuters at home and I see a lot of e-scooters in the beach areas of west L.A. too. I have no problems with either e-bikes or e-scooters. I see it as a positive trend for commuting as anything that lowers the environmental impact of conventional automobiles is desirable. The smaller battery packs of e-bikes, scooters etc give them the ability to be charged via solar power too.

Over the last couple of years there has been a HUGE sales increase of e-bikes in China in particular and Asia in general. That may be one of the reasons for increased manufacturer awareness here.

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Yep, I agree with rebeccaC--I have no problem with them either. If that's what it takes to get some folks riding, fine with me. I don't think e-bike riders are any more likely to be a problem on MUTs than any other riders, skaters, or even walkers, if they behave predictably and follow the general rules of use.

I have very mixed feelings, too. I am old enough (just about 61) to say, "if I can ride, so can you," but, maybe when I'm 85 or 90? I'd rather just get a nice upright bike and do less hills...
I have seen exactly one while I've been riding. It's pretty much a cycling mecca around where I live, so I doubt I'll be seeing many.
DH saw a guy on one, last year when he was riding to work. He couldn't figure out why some guy in jeans was dropping him, so when he caught him, he found out. The guy appeared to be neither out of shape, overweight, or super old.
A few years ago, I was doing the bike valet duty at a farmer's market and some company was demo-ing e-bikes. They looked huge and heavy. Meh, if someone wants one, it's fine with me, but I will not be getting one. I ride with too many people in their 70's to think it's just for older people!

I'm a proponent of e-bikes. I do think they can get, and keep, more folks riding. Sure, I've seen plenty of folks in their 70's riding too, but not everyone gets to that age in good health. My dad (who live in the Netherlands) has had a lot of health problems, but his e-bike allows him to keep doing the longer rides and go on cycling vacations. E-bikes are immensely popular there (as are regular bikes, of course). I think it's one of multiple factors that keeps people there riding for so long, and it's fabulous.

With the hills around here, e-bikes would be nice for commuting too (not applicable to me now as I work from home). If it keeps more cars off the road, great! Especially during the most polluted months around here (esp. January and July).

Right now the price points aren't quite there yet to really grow this segment, but the increasing competition might get them there.

So glad I put this out there. I enjoy hearing everyone's thoughts and opinions. Think I will go do some digging around the internet and see what the prevailing winds say. Yes, I see the value in commuting but am personally hoping they don't start showing up on trails.

It's like saying some people drive recklessly so cars should be banned. You have to be held accountable for following rules and laws. And if you do that, you should not be punished because others may not. IMO.

I don't think that anyone is proposing banning E-bikes entirely… the larger question is whether or not they should be considered to be bicycles, motor scooters or motorcycles - which would make the rules governing them different. To determine that I would think you'd have to look at several factors - one of the bigger ones being the speed that the cycle can obtain. Here there are differences governing the different vehicles in this state, but it is getting *confusing* with all of the different choices (motor scooter, moped, electric personal mobility device…, motorized foot scooter ,e-bike)

bicycles: do not need a drivers license, can use roads, can use MUPs, can use bicycle lanes, can use sidewalks if not specifically prohibited

e-bike: do not need a driver's license, can use roads, can use MUPs *if* not specifically prohibited, can use bicycle lanes, are NOT allowed on sidewalks

motor scooter/moped - do need a driver's license and registration, do not need a motorcycle endorsement, can NOT use MUPs or bicycle lanes, must be limited to less than 30mph

I'd guess there are lots of different e-bikes out there - some are probably closer to regular bikes, some probably closer to mopeds.

A few years ago my husband used to share part of his commute with a co-worker on an e-bike (who being an engineer did a lot of fiddling and customizing). His e-bike still wasn't a match for the real bike. My hubby would draft him on the flats (well… goad the e-bike rider to try to drop him, thereby using up much of his electrical store :p) and then bust him up the hills where the bike, being big and heavy, even if partially powered, couldn't match the real bike. OTOH I was climbing a rather steep hill the other day when a rather large fellow went zipping by me not even breathing hard… yup e-bike. Personally I have no use for them. I'm one of those people who feels like it's not worth the time if there's not some sweat and suffering that goes into it… for me it's exercise and it shouldn't be easy.

Horsepower limits determine which gas-powered motorcycles can go on what roads, and what the licensing requirements are. Should be the same regardless of the power source IMO.

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Originally Posted by Eden

for me it's exercise and it shouldn't be easy.

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I think that is a very basic and prevalent difference in mindset about the role of bicycles in most of the U.S. vs other countries like the European ones. When I grew up, bicycles were simply transportation, not exercise. And that transportation view has played into the development of bicycle-friendly infrastructure. As long as bicycles are only viewed as a tool for exercise, there will be less support for improving cycling infrastructure.

[I know I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here.]

I agree, but I also think that that's a lot of what's at work here. Instead of making the transportation infrastructure accessible for general use for all types of vehicles and pedestrians, instead people increasingly (think they) want more and more specialized facilities, which is never going to happen. Just maybe, e-bikes will be an added impetus for taking the surface streets back for all vehicles. (And monkeys could fly out of my butt, too ... :rolleyes: )

To my recollection there was similar controversy when mopeds first came on the scene. They were unregulated too, and kids would ride them as though they had the power of full sized motorcycles and the maneuverability of bicycles, instead of actually having neither. Eventually they became regulated based on horsepower or displacement or both. Substitute horsepower for any remaining displacement limitations (which they're going to want to do anyway, considering the rate at which electric vehicles that are unquestionably "motorcycles," and marketed as such, are also coming online) and I'm not sure what more regulation is really needed.

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Originally Posted by BikeDutchess

I think that is a very basic and prevalent difference in mindset about the role of bicycles in most of the U.S. vs other countries like the European ones. When I grew up, bicycles were simply transportation, not exercise. And that transportation view has played into the development of bicycle-friendly infrastructure. As long as bicycles are only viewed as a tool for exercise, there will be less support for improving cycling infrastructure.

[I know I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here.]

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Actually, I think this is quite relevant and not tangential at all. :)

Don't get me wrong - I use my bicycle for transportation often (I nearly exclusively bicycle commute), but I still view it as multi-tasking… transport that is exercise. If I couldn't use my bike and was given the choice between a scooter and the bus, I'd take the bus - I can't see why I'd choose a more hazardous, less comfortable means of transport if it didn't have the exercise benefits… OK… well I except I suppose that sometimes trips by bus are unreasonably long when you look at the wait/transfer factors and where exactly you can get to is limited… but still if it were my everyday commute, I'd rather ride my bike in the rain than take the bus, but I'd take the bus over riding a scooter.

I also think there are other basic reasons that a lot of people don't view bicycles the same way here as in Europe - we tend to be way less dense here and many if not most people do not live urban areas where walking and cycling are practical. Suburban areas are not set up to be friendly to much else than car transport - houses far away from shops and workplaces with few ways in or out - few sidewalks, few amenities within reach- you have to be intrepid, dedicated or you just get into your car…

My husband was reading the Interbike news -- he's more of a runner than a cyclist, but he does ride, and he said "look at these e-bikes, if I had one I'd never drive my car to work". He usually takes the bus, but if he has a doctor's appointment or errands to run to/fro, the schedule is often too inflexible and he drives.

I suggested we seriously consider seeing if we could find an e-assist (pedaling required) cargo bike that we both found comfortable, because if we had one of those, I'd never borrow his car to grocery shop unless it was pouring, and I'd never need the car to take (other) bikes to the shop. (For me it's more about a cargo setup than the assist, but I'd probably use the assist occasionally.)

Attachment 17389 This one is Extracycle and Bosch, expected retail $5k

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Originally Posted by antimony

My husband was reading the Interbike news -- he's more of a runner than a cyclist, but he does ride, and he said "look at these e-bikes, if I had one I'd never drive my car to work". He usually takes the bus, but if he has a doctor's appointment or errands to run to/fro, the schedule is often too inflexible and he drives.

I suggested we seriously consider seeing if we could find an e-assist (pedaling required) cargo bike that we both found comfortable, because if we had one of those, I'd never borrow his car to grocery shop unless it was pouring, and I'd never need the car to take (other) bikes to the shop. (For me it's more about a cargo setup than the assist, but I'd probably use the assist occasionally.)

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Originally Posted by BikeDutchess

I think that is a very basic and prevalent difference in mindset about the role of bicycles in most of the U.S. vs other countries like the European ones. When I grew up, bicycles were simply transportation, not exercise. And that transportation view has played into the development of bicycle-friendly infrastructure. As long as bicycles are only viewed as a tool for exercise, there will be less support for improving cycling infrastructure.



[I know I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here.]

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Sometimes we are a little too U.S. centric here.

Pedaled mopeds have been very popular in Europe for the last 60+ years. I had one of the 7 million+ sold VeloSoleX's when I was 10. We had deliveries made to the house with pedaled moped cargo trikes and i still see them on trips back. When I was back not long ago I saw a lot of E-bikes, a very nice folding E-Solex and even Fedex using e cargo trikes in Paris

http://rchauvin.smugmug.com/photos/i...-X6rXVsh-L.jpg

I've seen 2-3 e-bikes used by other employees within our bike storage lock-up at work which holds approx. 130 bikes. It does get entirely full in spring-fall. There is an e-bike store a few blocks from home and the only one it town. They also sell a handful of folding bikes.

No I haven't seen many people riding them around in our city.

I have mixed feelings about e-bikes especially on more narrow paths. Just 2 weeks ago I saw a teen on an ebike, going really fast on a MUP with her dad who was on a regular bike.
My feeling they must stay within a speed limit with that extra boost and not on sidewalks.

The kind of e-bikes I'm familiar with (which my dad and several other relatives ride) require the rider to pedal before the assist kicks in, and the assist stops when the speed reaches 25 km/hr (15.5 mph). Those are the types of e-bikes I'm supportive of.

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Originally Posted by BikeDutchess

The kind of e-bikes I'm familiar with (which my dad and several other relatives ride) require the rider to pedal before the assist kicks in, and the assist stops when the speed reaches 25 km/hr (15.5 mph). Those are the types of e-bikes I'm supportive of.

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Exactly. Until the sensor feels strong pressure from the rider, as in starting up a hill, the bike works as a bike only, without the assist doing anything at all. They are big, heavy bikes--they're not scooters and they can't go superfast. I've seen countless cyclists on MUPs with regular bikes go much faster than e-bikes will ever manage.

I was talking with my partner about her 90+ yo mother. Her driver license is ready to expire and she knows California will not give her a renewal even with complete test. She's still sharp as a tack and all that but...

So instead of completely losing her mobility with a loss of a car, why not an ELF or other three wheel e-bike? I have no problem with that at all. My problem with e-bike is similar to what others have said, bunch of yahoos who think they can ride it like a rice-burner/cafe racer/crotch rocket or what ever other names you want to use.

Then there is my mother who is in her 80s. My sister just informed me that her license is due for rewal this month. See if I can talk her into an ELF and give up her Lexus. She drives less than 4,000 miles a year. I wish they, organic transit, would target advertise to those who are ready to lose their license. Maybe they can get through the rigid thinking of the elderly and try something meaningful.

STOP advertising about health benefit and instead talk about benefit of mobility without a car!!

Maybe I'll go bother Organic Transit about it.

And here I never thought about being a proponent of ELF. I thought they looked hedious and use other negative adjectives. I'm more of the rice burner type...

I guess I have a problem with someone who can't get a driver's license being allowed to operate any vehicle in traffic. Sure on a bike/trike the balance shifts more toward endangering herself vs more likely to endanger others in a car. But still.




.... (and tangentially, I know we've had this conversation before, but just try one thing. Go up to someone with a Buell or a BMW sportbike and call it a rice burner, wait for their reaction, then tell me whether the term is racist or not ... )

I was thinking the same. I'm all for trikes, but not mixing in with cars, if the driver is impaired enough to not be driving a car.
My dad was driving right up until the week he went into the hospital, at age 89. The week before, he had driven himself down to a restaurant at the beach that sold Boston style lobster rolls... he had to take a special driving test a couple of years ago, in CA, but he passed. I doubt he would have passed the next one. And, I know he could not have managed a trike.

Like some of you folks, I too, have mixed feelings. I will say that when I bought the shop that I have, the previous owner had some in stock. I chose not to continue that trend, as bikes were heavy, expensive and for rural areas simply not practical. But over the years, I'm sure they have become much better and cured some of the previous issues. But at least at this time, I don't see them becoming a part of the shop... who knows, maybe that will change down the line.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

I guess I have a problem with someone who can't get a driver's license being allowed to operate any vehicle in traffic. Sure on a bike/trike the balance shifts more toward endangering herself vs more likely to endanger others in a car. But still.

.... (and tangentially, I know we've had this conversation before, but just try one thing. Go up to someone with a Buell or a BMW sportbike and call it a rice burner, wait for their reaction, then tell me whether the term is racist or not ... )

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I should have qualified by saying that if they still have the faculty to drive safely. What my partner and her mother have noticed is that California is now erring on safety first. So even though you may pass the full on driver exam, the elderly are being flunked and losing their license. At least, this is what I am being told by my partner and her mother. Her mother lives in a retirement community. And everyone of them who have gone for driver license renewal has come back with loss of license.

My thinking too is that ELF can only go so fast, so the reaction time needed could be lot slower than a car...Less demand on the driver.

As for my comment on rice burner, I did also say Cafe Racer or is that term too old? Yes I'm sure BNW Burrell (isn't it owned by Harley now?) or Aprillia or any other Euro bikes might want to give me a black eye for calling it a rice burner.

And isn't there a different grade of motorcycle/scooter license based on displacement and maximum speed of scooter/motorcycle?

Erm, though, has anyone ever taken a driving test who didn't believe in their own mind that they could drive safely? When is it okay for a vehicle operator to substitute their judgment for the license examiner's?

I feel for people with limited mobility, I truly do, but I don't think smaller motorized personal transport is the solution. After all, closing speed between a car and a slower vehicle is the same no matter which one you're operating, and reaction time if anything needs to be quicker on a bike. Then you have issues of grip strength and neck mobility, which are much more problematic with handlebars and limited mirror space than they are in an enclosed vehicle with a steering wheel. I think our elders' concerns (and our own as we age) are much better addressed with infrastructure - walkable communities, more pervasive public transit, and accessible facilities. I love living in the country, but I have to accept that I can only live here as long as I can drive. DH is already making noises about moving to an urban center now, while it's still relatively easy for us to adjust, rather than waiting until necessity forces us there, at an age when change may be even more disorienting than it is for a younger person. I'm sure his mother's experience is prominent in his thinking - she's essentially a prisoner in her own home because of the lack of sidewalks and public transit, and the distance to any type of shopping or recreation. The last few times I was a passenger while she drove it was terrifying for both of us, but there's no doubt in my mind that she's safer in a car than on a trike on those roads. And in her late 80s and recently widowed, the idea of moving out of the home where she's lived for 40+ years is probably even scarier and more overwhelming to her than traffic is.


W/r/t the motorcycle drift, in no particular order - many states have more lenient licensing requirements for mopeds, and some include any gas powered vehicles 49cc or less whether or not they have pedals. Some states require new riders to wear a helmet for their first year of licensure. Other than that I'm not aware of any graduated licensing like they have in Europe.

A café racer is something completely different from a sportbike, and you may be thinking "older" just because most people choose older bikes for that kind of project. It's a standard bike that's been modified, I think always with clip-ons and solo saddle, and often with a bikini fairing and/or other mods. They're also probably less popular now that people can buy a naked bike new.

As far as corporate ownership, BMW has always been its own company. H-D did some engine development collaboration with Porsche, which might be what you're thinking about. Buells were originally built with Sportster engines, and there was a period when H-D owned a substantial minority of the company and sold their bikes in H-D dealerships, but that's long past, and the few bikes that Erik is still building have I think Rotax engines.

Ah, California, the only place in the USA where a non-enthusiast has even heard of Aprilia. :D

The League of American Bicycles is looking for some good feedback on electric bikes. Here is the article
http://bikeleague.org/content/survey...electric-bikes

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Originally Posted by Muirenn

I just came across this electric motor kit on Amazon. What does everyone think? Would this work on a standard bike? Certainly much cheaper than buying and e-bike.

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Your link took me to the PK80 gasoline motor.

MIT’s Senseable City Lab program is doing some interesting research into conversion kits to e-bikes. The Copenhagen wheel (everything incased in the rear wheel) came out of that lab and may turn out to be one of the easiest ways to convert a bike. As with a lot of new tech, prices can be high at the beginning though, $700+ depending on single speed or cassette. I think as prices and weight goes down and wattage and battery technology increases something like/or the Copenhagen may be very appealing to a lot of people.

other kinds of conversion kits can be bought for around $200

Actually I was thinking an e-bike would be perfect for me after doing reading. I'd want the pedal assist where you pedal and the motor kicks in when needed. A full electric bike almost defeats the purpose of riding though. Only cons I see right now are weight, price and where the motor is at in the hub or midpoint. I'd love to put a kit on my cross bike. I'm sick of climbing hills and would love the boost when needed. I'm wondering if my LBS still has the electric Trek bike I tried a few years ago.

I'm planning to purchase an eBike spring of 2015. Perfect for my needs and geography, which includes lots of rolling hills

One can get a very vigorous workout on an eBike because the level of assist is controlled by the rider at all times. Anywhere from no-assist to a high level of assist, with a couple choices in between. It can be a great option for those who would like to drive less and bicycle more, being able to run errands, commute to work, and various practical uses, not only for fun. Most people drive to run errands within 5 to 8 miles of their home. Also for those who have injuries, knee replacements, or had surgery, an eBike can get them back to cycling or supplement what they are able to do on their own.

For me I need the assistance because I have a lot of hills and it's just not any fun having to walk the bike.

I think I would consider an e-bike if somehow the batterypack could be lighter but also have wider wheels..for winter, yes make it a fat bike here where we live where it's long hard and snowier winters in the prairies.

It's something to consider much later on in life when I need a boost occasionally and be more balanced. By the time, I wouldn't care how slow I was going..but still wanting to be mobile on my own on quieter roads and on paths.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

I think I would consider an e-bike if somehow the batterypack could be lighter but also have wider wheels..for winter, yes make it a fat bike here where we live where it's long hard and snowier winters in the prairies.

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The good news is that ebikes do come in all kinds of varieties, including fat bikes, mountain bikes, road, commuter, hybrid, city, cruisers, eTrikes, etrailers, fully engineered and kits available for those DIY types. I've been following the discussions and learning about different eBikes at electricbikereview.com and it is amazing the number of companies and the proliferation. Even well-known companies like Trek, Specialized, Felt, and Giant have eBikes in their lineup.

My local Specialized bike shop was all {sniff-sniff-pew-pew} when I was chatting with the guys about eBikes until they realized that it expands the range of people who can successfully ride and enjoy cycling and that anything that gets people to cycle and get out of their cars and get exercise and doesn't harm the environment doing so, is a good thing. If one is a "cycling enthusiast" then it should warm the cockles of one's heart to see people on bikes, even if those bikes have some battery power to the rider get up a hill. Pedelecs often require the rider to push those pedals, as the rider is part of the engine, and in mid-drive engines, like Bosch, the rider doesn't go anywhere if they are not pedaling the bike.

For many people eBikes don't replace their regular road or mountain bike, it replaces their use of their car so they spend a lot more time on a bike or allows them to get their exercise in commuting to and from work.

When i was younger, my Litespeed and I traveled quite a bit and I was fortunate to do some amazing bike trips in here in the USA, Europe and Costa Rica. However with age and bodily renovation (both knees replaced, surgery on both hands, 2 back surgeries and shoulder reconstruction), I could no longer get on and off my beloved road bike or make it up the 850' hill that I live upon. I though I was done with biking, until I tried the Townie Electra Go. I'm back in the saddle again and can even drop my husband coming up the hill. This is a pedal assist configuration, so you have to pedal to make it go, so it is still a lot of work for me to get up the hill, but I can do it. It is certainly not "exercise-free". Top speed is only 15mph pedaling, so I'm not zipping by anyone. I have baskets on the handlebars and rear rack, so I can take my little dogs along or buy a few groceries and run errands while getting some exercise. At 56 pounds (without baskets or load), it is heavier than any road bike and a bit clunky to handle, but sitting more upright takes the stress off of my neck and hands. The Townie has an unusual geometry that puts your feet somewhat forward, which takes the stress off of my refurbished knees. It does make a little bit of noise, but not too terribly much. This technology has allowed me to get back into biking for fun and health as well as rejoining my (annoyingly athletic) husband on bike trips again. Probably the best money I have spent on biking since I got the Litespeed. Now I just need to find a bike rack big enough to cart it around......... Attachment 17726