pet care and neighbours and dilemmas

This story from FB, with amazing (and rather scary) photos shows a small pup whose coat was allowed to grow, by a neglectful owner:

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/na...FlowFB_DCBrand

And it got me to thinking - when do you step in and say something about somebody else's pet? For instance, we have a neighbour whose elderly cat had long, thick fur, which was very lumpy and matted. When I'd touch the cat, I would mostly feel bulbous lumps under the over-coat, not a smooth surface. The cat was very shy, though, and I rarely got close to it. The cat was otherwise well treated, and the neighbours are friendly, nice, normal people, not strange in any way. I never said anything about it, but yesterday I heard that they had had to put the cat down due to an adder bite. It sounded as if they hadn't noticed the swelling and discolouring, because of all the fur in the way...

And now I feel bad that I didn't say something. We have a smooth-coated cat who is very fastidious, and she would have been very distressed at lumps in her coat. But I just sort of assumed that this cat didn't mind as much :-(

It would have been a lot easier if they had been neglectful in any other way, but it's hard to call out people just for being thoughtless.

One has to be very careful- it's like dealing with other peoples kids. At least where I live, pets are considered property and the only way to deal with a potential neglect or other issue is to go the county animal welfare/control agency. We had a situation a few years back where one neighbor went on vacation and left the the dog with a kiddie pool full water and a large container of food. It sat at the edge of the invisible fence barking incessantly for a week before the rest of us figured out what was going on. Another neighbor went onto the property to get the dog and give it some human care. The owner had him arrested for trespassing and stealing, even though the neglect was documented.
It was quite the drama on our little cul de sac.

In our city, a call to the county animal services would be clearly preferable to going on to the person's property in a case of neglect or nuisance (non-stop barking qualifies as a nuisance), because many people have that wild west attitude about property ownership.

People differ dramatically in their views of grooming and medical intervention, though. To me, excessive medical intervention borders on cruelty to the animal, but others believe in it wholeheartedly (and with their whole wallets).

In these types of situations I'd call animal control or SPCA, whatever you have in your area.

If it's not excessive for a human I don't think it's excessive for a pet. If you take on the responsibility of a pet you should be willing to put the time and money into it.

The link Iph provided certainly warrants an intervention. When the hair gets that long and matted, it affects the mobility of the dog--and it can be quite painful. I also think the age of the owner should be taken into consideration--particularly if you're talking about an elderly person who may have some dementia or other cognitive issues, as well as a chronic disease that makes it difficult for the owner to properly groom the dog. I'd say something to the family first, and if that doesn't work, I'd go to the local humane society. I wouldn't or couldn't ignore it.

We can't assume that everyone understands animal needs very well and not all pet owners are properly "educated."

So a polite brief suggestion to neighbour would at least be useful. Then let it go for awhile. May work if you get along with neighbours.

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Originally Posted by Irulan

One has to be very careful- it's like dealing with other peoples kids. At least where I live, pets are considered property and the only way to deal with a potential neglect or other issue is to go the county animal welfare/control agency. We had a situation a few years back where one neighbor went on vacation and left the the dog with a kiddie pool full water and a large container of food. It sat at the edge of the invisible fence barking incessantly for a week before the rest of us figured out what was going on. Another neighbor went onto the property to get the dog and give it some human care. The owner had him arrested for trespassing and stealing, even though the neglect was documented.
It was quite the drama on our little cul de sac.

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Yikes! Seems like the safer course of action in a situation like your neighbor's would be to call animal control and let them handle getting the dog properly cared for. Sounds like the neighbor who left the dog that way is just not a nice person in general.

Just to clarify - I would absolutely have intervened had I ever seen any animal with the kind of coat in the photos. That was a case of extreme neglect. I was wondering more about the kind of "daily neglect" like my neighbours cat. Nothing extreme or cruel, just slightly worrying. And I'm not worried about any legal repercussions, more about how do you broach the subject with otherwise friendly and normal people. Cats with long hair do tend to get matted, but most people tend to it regularly.

Oh poor kitty. Being bitten by a poisonus snake. But what can you do after being bitten? Cats only weigh in from around 3 kilo to maybe 7 kilo. They are small enough that bites are going to be far worse than for people. At least the owners had enough thought to do what they thought was the right thing for the kitty. Could they have save it had they discovered the bite sooner? Maybe. Maybe they discovered the bite within hours. Bites like that are going to be very noticeable in matter of minutes and not days.

As for neglectful owners, some do not take very kindly to your generous offer. Some even get very hostile!! Best to call your humane society. Sometimes this is all you can do. No good deeds go unpunished

I've heard passionate arguments on both sides about whether or not domestic cats should be allowed outside at all. The fiercely indoor only folks believe that letting the cat outside shortens the cat's life by exposing it to danger and the fiercely indoor/outdoor people rave about the cat's natural behavior and environment.

We've just adopted a kitten who was rescued and treated with bilateral eye enucleation. So, she got some intense medical treatment early on, spent most of her 3 months of life under the influence of pain meds and antibiotics. She has some motor difficulties, possibly due to confinement in a small kennel, and she has had no early socialization with other cats. The volunteers at the agency described her as 'snuggly,' but really, she was never given any opportunity to walk around or explore. When she came to us her nails were so long that they got caught on everything and she was quite reluctant to move about.

The whole situation has prompted me to do quite a lot of thinking about how we care for our animals. You know, they did this big surgery, but they didn't give her the opportunity to develop any 'cat skills.' Did the vets get paid with donation money? Was the surgery done partly for training? Why didn't they trim her nails!?

Poor kitten! No matter if they're kept indoors or out I feel quite passionately about letting them use their natural skills and senses. Watching an athletic cat climb and play is such a joy, if ever an animal was designed to move it's a cat. Good luck with her!

I'm not sure socialization with other cats matters that much, or do you have other cats already? I've had cats that have been very friendly with each other, and cats that have known each other for years and still just tolerate each other. I've read that cats aren't naturally very social.

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Originally Posted by malkin

I've heard passionate arguments on both sides about whether or not domestic cats should be allowed outside at all. The fiercely indoor only folks believe that letting the cat outside shortens the cat's life by exposing it to danger and the fiercely indoor/outdoor people rave about the cat's natural behavior and environment.

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I think a lot depends on where you live...if you're in town or right near a busy road, there is a lot more risk of the cat getting hit by a car and it's probably best to keep them inside. If you live out in the country, it's reasonably safe (provided there aren't a lot of critters around that like to eat cats) to let the cat outside, it's more natural and they probably really enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by lph

Poor kitten! No matter if they're kept indoors or out I feel quite passionately about letting them use their natural skills and senses. Watching an athletic cat climb and play is such a joy, if ever an animal was designed to move it's a cat. Good luck with her!

I'm not sure socialization with other cats matters that much, or do you have other cats already? I've had cats that have been very friendly with each other, and cats that have known each other for years and still just tolerate each other. I've read that cats aren't naturally very social.

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We have 3 other cats (about 2, 3, and 4 years old). They are curious about her in a 'that is not a cat' way. She is doing better and better but she sometimes reacts sort of like a cat version of an autistic kid who can't regulate (hiss, growl, roar, spit) and then shuts down ( get very small and don't move).

We are happy to have her, anyway. She's funny. She bumps into things and I'm sure she and the big cats will get used to each other in time.
Here's a little video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07f7wQ8mbww

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Originally Posted by lph

Just to clarify - I would absolutely have intervened had I ever seen any animal with the kind of coat in the photos. That was a case of extreme neglect. I was wondering more about the kind of "daily neglect" like my neighbours cat. Nothing extreme or cruel, just slightly worrying. And I'm not worried about any legal repercussions, more about how do you broach the subject with otherwise friendly and normal people. Cats with long hair do tend to get matted, but most people tend to it regularly.

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As much as it is disturbing to see any kind of neglect ( animal, human etc) I'm thinking it's pretty pointless to try and point things out to people. It's kind of like trying to change someone's mind over the internet. You feel better making your point, but are you really going to change anyone's behavior?

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Originally Posted by Jolt

I think a lot depends on where you live...if you're in town or right near a busy road, there is a lot more risk of the cat getting hit by a car and it's probably best to keep them inside. If you live out in the country, it's reasonably safe (provided there aren't a lot of critters around that like to eat cats) to let the cat outside, it's more natural and they probably really enjoy it.

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I'm going to disagree here. In rural situations, you might not have a lot of traffic, but you have coyotes and other predators and parasites.
As for "natural" behavior, is it "natural" to kill things and never eat them? Cat decimation of songbird populations is well documented. As someone in non rural setting, I am beyond annoyed at free roaming cats that continually hunt birds in my yard, and use my gardens as little boxes. Ordinances preventing roaming cats are blatantly ignored, and yet if I catch one in my yard and take it to pound, guess who is the bad guy? And to reference my previous post, if I mention to my neighbor that I don't like their cats in my yard, I basically get told to f*** off very politely.

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Originally Posted by Irulan

As much as it is disturbing to see any kind of neglect ( animal, human etc) I'm thinking it's pretty pointless to try and point things out to people. It's kind of like trying to change someone's mind over the internet. You feel better making your point, but are you really going to change anyone's behavior?

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I tend to agree with this. If there was clear, serious abuse, I would try to contact the police or animal control people anonymously. But I had a neighbor recently who lived in the condo above mine, and I could tell she was ignoring her dog -- leaving it home alone in a cage for 16 hours at a time -- and I didn't say anything to her because I was already having enough problems with her stomping around and slamming things on purpose because she knew it annoyed me. She had the emotional maturity of a toddler and should never have gotten a dog in the first place. There was no way I would have been able to help the dog by intervening. (My neighbor's boyfriend seemed much more mature, so hopefully he stepped up and took better care of the dog after the neighbor moved on to a different home.)

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Originally Posted by malkin

We have 3 other cats (about 2, 3, and 4 years old). They are curious about her in a 'that is not a cat' way. She is doing better and better but she sometimes reacts sort of like a cat version of an autistic kid who can't regulate (hiss, growl, roar, spit) and then shuts down ( get very small and don't move).

We are happy to have her, anyway. She's funny. She bumps into things and I'm sure she and the big cats will get used to each other in time.
Here's a little video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07f7wQ8mbww

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Awww, what a cutey :-) I'd forgotten how kittens will play with anything, all the time. Should be fun watching her gain proper use of her motor skills. Big cat doesn't look too impressed though :-D



Yeah, I guess it does take more than casual conversation to change peoples behaviour. ..

Back to the original question though--If the other person were a friend or close relative, I might go ahead and notice out loud that the animal needed a nail trim or coat maintenance and then go ahead and just perform it. I don't know most of my neighbors well enough to barge in and offer to trim their dogs' nails.

It's sort of the same thing when someone rides by on a bike with the seat remarkably too low. Brewer sort of wants to tell them to stop so he can raise the saddle, which would be fine in a small town where we all knew each other, but this isn't really that kind of small town.

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Originally Posted by Irulan

I'm going to disagree here. In rural situations, you might not have a lot of traffic, but you have coyotes and other predators and parasites.
As for "natural" behavior, is it "natural" to kill things and never eat them? Cat decimation of songbird populations is well documented. As someone in non rural setting, I am beyond annoyed at free roaming cats that continually hunt birds in my yard, and use my gardens as little boxes. Ordinances preventing roaming cats are blatantly ignored, and yet if I catch one in my yard and take it to pound, guess who is the bad guy? And to reference my previous post, if I mention to my neighbor that I don't like their cats in my yard, I basically get told to f*** off very politely.

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I agree, Irulan. I have a cat--he's 17 years old, and he's only been an indoor cat. He wouldn't be this old, had he been an outdoor cat. I love all critters, and I personally think it's cruel all the way around, to allow a domestic cat to roam outdoors. If someone insists on having their cat outdoors, then they should construct a pen to protect the cat from disease, coyotes, etc., and to protect the prey from the cat.

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Originally Posted by CAS

I agree, Irulan. I have a cat--he's 17 years old, and he's only been an indoor cat. He wouldn't be this old, had he been an outdoor cat. I love all critters, and I personally think it's cruel all the way around, to allow a domestic cat to roam outdoors. If someone insists on having their cat outdoors, then they should construct a pen to protect the cat from disease, coyotes, etc., and to protect the prey from the cat.

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Well, I am of the opposite opinion; I have always had indoor/outdoor cats. I had two Maine Coons - one who lived to 24, the other to around 18 or so (he died of a heart attack, had a heart issue). Both were indoor/outdoor cats, pampered, spoiled and loved. I don't think it hurt them to be outdoors.

I now have two indoor/outdoor cats and I don't really think I'm cruel to them.

I hadn't really meant to start an indoor/outdoor discussion, but for what it's worth: I can see both sides, even though I have a clear preference myself for keeping outdoor cats. What is "cruel" depends on the cat's personality, the owner and the surroundings, IMO, and doesn't warrant blanket statements. Yes, I might consider it cruel (or thoughtless) to keep an outdoor cat in a very dangerous environment. Or stupid, if you have a hunting cat and rare songbirds around. But we don't even have coyotes here. We have the occasional red fox, one type of venomous adder (and this is the first case of a cat being bitten I'd ever heard of) and extremely restricted traffic. I might equally consider it cruel to keep an active, young cat indoors in a small flat with little stimulation. Our cat became quite aggressive when we had to keep her indoors for 6 weeks this spring, even though we walked her 3 times a day and tried to play with her. OTOH I know people who go to great lengths to make sure their indoor cats are happy and content, and they obviously are safer. To each their own. As Irulan pointed out - arguing on the internet rarely changes anyones mind ;-)

Heheh, malkin, I have the same reaction whenever I see someone with their seat too low, I really want to yell out at them "PLEASE raise your seat!" I was known as the busybody mother who would adjust all the kids helmets when my son was small.

I don't have a pet, only had one in my life, but I am the person who says something to other riders, especially if a child is involved.
I once yelled at my neighbor from my old neighborhood, when we came upon him while riding home, about half a mile to go. He was riding the wrong way on a semi rural road that gets a good amount of traffic, with no helmet. He had his 2 sons behind him. They had helmets on, but I told him to get on the other side of the street. DH was pissed, but I I really think that some people just don't know what the law is.
Of course, this is the guy who got arrested for a DUI in just about the same spot... ah, the local HS football hero from 1981. He got a scholarship to Yale, and apparently didn't learn much.

I don't understand wrong side of the street riders. I get that sidewalk riders have some (false) feeling of increased safety, but wrong way riding doesn't make any sense to me at all. If I yelled at them it would be "What the @#$% are you thinking?!"

If you can keep your cat in your yard, fine. Please keep it out of mine. I'm tired of cat poop and cat urine and dead birds on my property.

Funny story: when we moved in where we live now, we were told by our closest neighbour, in no uncertain terms, on our first meeting, that if there was one thing she HATED it was cat poop in her garden. Many of our other neighbours have cats themselves. We've come to a working agreement with her: we sympathize when she complains about cats, we try to keep Lyra from sharpening her claws on her lilac tree, and we buy her that stinky gel to put in her flowerbeds that cats hate. She has our blessing to chase Lyra out of her garden in any way she wants to, including throwing a bucketful of water at her if needs be.
It transpired that her boyfriend, who visits frequently, adores cats, and is smitten with Lyra. And that Lyra loves to play with water coming from a hose. So they have gradually all become friends, and her DIL who lives a few doors down, confided in me one day that "you must have a special cat. My MIL really doesn't like cats, but she likes yours!" Lyra is now welcome in her garden, catches mice and hangs around being sociable and comes running when they pull out the hose. I wouldn't be surprised if she even gets to sharpen her claws on the lilacs every now and then. All the other neighbours cats are banned :-D

FTR I hate cat poop too.

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Originally Posted by roo4

If you can keep your cat in your yard, fine. Please keep it out of mine. I'm tired of cat poop and cat urine and dead birds on my property.

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I'm with you. My dogs would never be able to get away with doing in other people's yards what cats do in mine.

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Originally Posted by malkin

I don't understand wrong side of the street riders. I get that sidewalk riders have some (false) feeling of increased safety, but wrong way riding doesn't make any sense to me at all. If I yelled at them it would be "What the @#$% are you thinking?!"

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Many people are still taught that you should ride against traffic… here in WA, while we are always supposed to ride in the same direction as traffic, there are laws on the books about walking on streets with no sidewalks that state that one must walk facing traffic - some people get the wrong idea from that too.

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Originally Posted by Eden

Many people are still taught that you should ride against traffic… here in WA, while we are always supposed to ride in the same direction as traffic, there are laws on the books about walking on streets with no sidewalks that state that one must walk facing traffic - some people get the wrong idea from that too.

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Same here...though I see so many cyclists riding against and pedestrians walking/running with. SMH

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Originally Posted by Irulan

I'm going to disagree here. In rural situations, you might not have a lot of traffic, but you have coyotes and other predators and parasites.
As for "natural" behavior, is it "natural" to kill things and never eat them? Cat decimation of songbird populations is well documented. As someone in non rural setting, I am beyond annoyed at free roaming cats that continually hunt birds in my yard, and use my gardens as little boxes. Ordinances preventing roaming cats are blatantly ignored, and yet if I catch one in my yard and take it to pound, guess who is the bad guy? And to reference my previous post, if I mention to my neighbor that I don't like their cats in my yard, I basically get told to f*** off very politely.

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I have outdoor/indoor cats and if they hunted day and night they could not kill the number of birds that the building I work in kills every day. Each morning -- especially when the evening grosbeaks are migrating - the ground under the windows (6 story building) is carpeted with dead birds. At least one of the dept on campus collects them and freezes them and uses them for their bird class, but I am surprised there are any birds left in that population.

Saying that your building kills more birds than your cats do is like saying heart disease kills more people than cancer. Both are terrible and something needs to be done about both. Outdoor cats is not good for the cats or the wildlife, especially songbirds. They have decimated many populations of birds and there are a lot of studies on it. I also agree that many of these buildings need to do something to protect migrating birds. It's also a problem.

If you don't care about the wildlife there's the issue of the things that can happen to your outdoor cat. It's not healthy for them. Then there's the issue that you can't keep a cat in just your yard. Is it fair that your neighbor should have to put up with your pet in their yard? I'm sure if their dog was in your yard you wouldn't be too happy about it. Why should it be any different for cats?

And in case anyone thinks I'm a cat hater, I have 2 cats.

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Originally Posted by thekarens

Saying that your building kills more birds than your cats do is like saying heart disease kills more people than cancer. Both are terrible and something needs to be done about both. Outdoor cats is not good for the cats or the wildlife, especially songbirds. They have decimated many populations of birds and there are a lot of studies on it. I also agree that many of these buildings need to do something to protect migrating birds. It's also a problem.

If you don't care about the wildlife there's the issue of the things that can happen to your outdoor cat. It's not healthy for them. Then there's the issue that you can't keep a cat in just your yard. Is it fair that your neighbor should have to put up with your pet in their yard? I'm sure if their dog was in your yard you wouldn't be too happy about it. Why should it be any different for cats?

And in case anyone thinks I'm a cat hater, I have 2 cats.

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I have a bit over 6 acres, there are a few interior acres all fenced and cantilevered to keep the cats in (and it keeps the cougars out of the yard and the coyotes away from the chickens) My cats do not bother my neighbors at all. They would have to hike over a mile to do so. I also happen to be married to a wildlife biologist. I think it depends on area. Mine catch mice and voles. I've rarely seen them catch birds. There are too many rodents in the barn near the feed to bother with something that flies away.

Well now I've got an issue along these lines, and it's kind of complicated ...

Our house shares a lane with two other households. The first house is along the main lane, so everyone has to pass it going in, then it forks and we're at the end of one fork and another house is at the end of the other.

So the house on the main lane has a dog. No big deal. She's wary of people, will bark at anyone who goes by, but generally well behaved.

Then other neighborhood dogs started showing up to play with the dog that's actually theirs. One of them chases cars. Kind of a PITA when you're trying to get somewhere in a hurry, but still not that huge of a deal. This dog was eventually abandoned by his owners who moved out, and now my neighbor feeds him. She tried to bring him into her house, but he isn't housebroken, and at probably 6-7 years old, he wasn't interested in learning and she wasn't interested in cleaning up after him.

Lately yet another older dog showed up at their house that no one knows where he came from. He was near-starving and had an infected eye and ear. Now he's got a pack to play with and shared bowls to eat and drink from and no interest in leaving, and soft touch that my neighbor is (I'd do the same, no criticism to her) she decided against taking him to the pound and accepted him into their outdoor "household" too, got his eye and ear taken care of, got them all their shots, etc.

But. The latest dog, when he first showed up all sick and weak, let me skritch his ears. But as he became integrated into the neighbor's "pack," he became as wary of me as the other two. I've tried to coax them to me many times as I pass their house when I run, but they're just not interested. Fine if they don't want to be my friends. But the latest dog has started chasing me the length of their property, like 1/4 mile of rough gravel, climbing up on my heels, and the other day he actually nipped me in the butt. Slightly broke the skin. That is NOT okay. And worse, now I'm a little scared to go by there, though I've passed him twice now without him trying to bite again.

I haven't seen my neighbors to speak to them since this happened. I'm not quite sure what to say. It's still not really "their" dog and they've never had much control over the two that aren't really theirs. They've got a young daughter who loves all the dogs. A couple of years ago our other neighbor shot another semi-feral dog that hung out there, after he says it started killing feral cats, and that was a major incident between the two families. Animal control doesn't even bother with country dogs, it's on us to either shoot the dog or deal with it, and I'm not going to shoot him no matter what. Anyone have any better suggestions???

That sounds awful.
Can you conspire with your neighbor to train the dogs to expect food/treats from you? Be the strictest behaviorist that you can be and make sure that the dogs get their treat immediately when they are performing a behavior that you want to promote.

This is probably a no, but would they be willing to confine the dogs? Like a fence?

Really sorry you're dealing with this - how frustrating!

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Originally Posted by thekarens

Saying that your building kills more birds than your cats do is like saying heart disease kills more people than cancer. Both are terrible and something needs to be done about both. Outdoor cats is not good for the cats or the wildlife, especially songbirds. They have decimated many populations of birds and there are a lot of studies on it. I also agree that many of these buildings need to do something to protect migrating birds. It's also a problem.

If you don't care about the wildlife there's the issue of the things that can happen to your outdoor cat. It's not healthy for them. Then there's the issue that you can't keep a cat in just your yard. Is it fair that your neighbor should have to put up with your pet in their yard? I'm sure if their dog was in your yard you wouldn't be too happy about it. Why should it be any different for cats?

And in case anyone thinks I'm a cat hater, I have 2 cats.

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Ditto every word -- but I have 3 cats and have had as many as 4. A childhood cat lost a hind leg to a dog attack. No one has had an outdoor cat in our family ever since. Our neighbor's roaming cats drive me nuts. They hunt at our bird feeder and stress our cats out, since they feel that their territory is threatened. One of our late cats used to pee around the doors and windows in an effort to help mark his territory, all because neighbors felt that their cats' wants outweighed everyone else's needs and wants.

So sorry you have this dog trouble, Oak. I guess I would try to talk to the neighbour too, to see if you can tame these dogs together. It's funny, here outdoor cats are pretty much the norm unless you live in the city, but loose dogs are very frowned upon, and I've never heard of a dog going feral. Maybe because it's mandatory to keep your dog on a leash most of the summer months.

Thirty or forty years ago it was pretty common practice to let dogs roam in suburban neighborhoods. Maybe in another 30 years we'll all be enlightened about cats.

If the dog chased me and tried to bite me, I think I would carry a can of pepper spray in my hand and ready to shoot when I go by the offending dog/house. Then put away the spray. Throwing super yummy treat like piece of hot dog to distract him away from you only encourages him more so pepper spray is a better bet.

Or if you have lots of patience, meet the offending dog in your running cloth and train him not to chase.

Maybe someone who is trained/certified dog trainer can chime in.

Having a dog pack is not a good thing.

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Originally Posted by thekarens

... Then there's the issue that you can't keep a cat in just your yard. Is it fair that your neighbor should have to put up with your pet in their yard? I'm sure if their dog was in your yard you wouldn't be too happy about it. Why should it be any different for cats?

And in case anyone thinks I'm a cat hater, I have 2 cats.

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I've taken to throwing the cat poop back into their yard with a shovel whenever I find it in my flower beds. I seem to recall that when we had a dog, she asked me to come clean up after it if he pooped on her front lawn. - which I did without complaint, of course.