DI2 Depression.

A friend just bought a new bike with DI2 and I feel like someone has just told me that there is no Santa Clause. I realize that I'm probably over reacting in most people's eyes but the purist in me objects strongly to a motor on a bike. I get it. It's slick, it's the new thing, it's what the pros are using and Shimano has done a hell of a job with it's marketing. But it's still a motor. It still replaces some of the mechanical effort of the rider to make the bike perform and I'm not OK with that. I'm really not.

Go ahead and put a motor on your bike, but don't pretend it's the same as a fully human propelled bike, because it's not.:mad:

What is the world coming to.;)

Rant over, thank you for listening.

I relate Wahine. It seems like its taking away an element of simplicity that I too value in my bikes.

In some ways, I agree with you.

It's a cool toy, and the engineering is interesting. (That might be because I'm dating an engineer.) The programmable shifting is neat. Would I buy it? No. I can't remember to charge my cell phone. How would I remember to charge my bike? I like the feedback and the feel of mechanical shifters too.

You kids get off my lawn.

The minute they started with indexed shifting, there went the neighborhood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OakLeaf

The minute they started with indexed shifting, there went the neighborhood.

---

Hee hee. Well at least index shifting is still a mechanical process without an external power source assist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Owlie

You kids get off my lawn.

---

LOL! Exactly!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Owlie

No. I can't remember to charge my cell phone. How would I remember to charge my bike? I.

---

yup.... I can't remember to charge my cell phone and my Garmin is always running out of battery life in the middle of a ride..... it would be pretty bad if my shifting ran out of batteries too....

To be fair, it doesn't replace much of the effort. I just don't see the point of it, mainly. It doesn't take that much longer to use a shift lever. I suppose if you're riding the Vuelta or some other major race with extremely fast competitors it makes a difference, but I can't see that it adds much except weight for us average non-racing riders.

I suppose we all have our tipping point when it comes to new technology. Some people think there's no need to put shifters anywhere but on a down-tube, and what do you need clipless pedals for when there are perfectly good toe clips and straps? And some do away with gearing altogether and think a single fixed is all you need. What I find interesting is that the retro purists are most often people who were too young to have ever used their chosen technology when it was new. Riders who are in their 70s embrace brifters and carbon fibre bikes enthusiastically, or at least my husband and his former clubmates do.

nahhh its all hype me think.

More expensive thing to buy and more ways to separate you and your money. When index shifting first came out, I turned it off or disabled it. I hate adjusting index shifting. It has to be sooo right or else.

And I guess I wont say anything about an electric assist velomobile. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smilingcat

And I guess I wont say anything about an electric assist velomobile. :p

---

This is going to seem really weird but I'm actually OK with an electronic assist velomobile. I'm assuming you mean motocycle. They aren't trying to be bicycles.

As for bikes that have motor assist on them to help with hills etc, I'm good with those too. I actually love them they get people out riding that wouldn't otherwise, especially where I live (it's super hilly). It's the only way a lot of mom's can commute whith their kids in a trailer or do the gorceries and I'm all for fewer cars on the road. But again, it's not trying to pretend to be a regular bicycle.

As for DI2 being a trend. I hope so. Being electronic with a battery (which is not environmentally friendly to produce or dispose of) I expect it to stop working or become annoying at some time and I really hope that people don't then just throw it away and replace it with a new set up every 2 years or whenever the new shiny thing comes out. What a waste. This bothers me.

But then, I should recognize that we live in a world where that is the norm. Most people get a new phone every 2 years, TVs, whatever. I'm unusual in how long I hold on to things. Heck, this lap top I'm on is at least 6 years old now.

I am not sure exactly what type of bicycle you are talking about.

My SO has a TREK e-assist bike. It only assists when you pedal it. He is 83 years old and could not possible go riding without the help. We participated in a 25 mile tour fundraiser last week. Even with the e-assist, he had to stop quite a few times to rest. But he was riding.

I guess if I were a nay-sayer to this type of bicycle, he would never go riding (even if he does upset me with his riding habits). MY SO also enjoys riding with a group I go with . . . something that would be impossible without the e-assist. I guess you have to evaluate what the battery powered bicycles are used for and if you can accept that.

I am 20 years younger than my SO so I ride on my own. But maybe one day if it is between riding and no riding. . . .

HA! I love this thread, thanks Wahine! AS a mechanic, I've always wondered why on earth people would spend so much on their shifting... as you said many people can't even remember to charge their cellphone(and I belong to that club)and what happens when you are riding far from home. Will there be a shop close by to help if you have issues? And what if that shop doesn't carry D12?

In addition to my shop, I worked for bike touring companies for 16 years, and we were riding in the "sticks", I was the only support. I'm so thankful that I'm not doing that now only because I wouldn't be carrying D12 parts with me. While the bike companies want us all to continue to spend our money with them, in my mind, there certainly are many items that would be more beneficial to all of us and that would have a bigger impact than "electronic gizmos." Ok, let me go plug in my phone...

I want though LOL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ridebikeme

HA! I love this thread, thanks Wahine! AS a mechanic, I've always wondered why on earth people would spend so much on their shifting... as you said many people can't even remember to charge their cellphone(and I belong to that club)and what happens when you are riding far from home. Will there be a shop close by to help if you have issues? And what if that shop doesn't carry D12?

In addition to my shop, I worked for bike touring companies for 16 years, and we were riding in the "sticks", I was the only support. I'm so thankful that I'm not doing that now only because I wouldn't be carrying D12 parts with me. While the bike companies want us all to continue to spend our money with them, in my mind, there certainly are many items that would be more beneficial to all of us and that would have a bigger impact than "electronic gizmos." Ok, let me go plug in my phone...

---

I'm not entirely sure how DI2 works, but I imagine there's a whole lot more that can go wrong with it than mechanical shifters, and probably a whole lot more expensive to repair. Certainly more expensive to replace!

I suppose if you're a pro and those milliseconds count, go for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ridebikeme

In addition to my shop, I worked for bike touring companies for 16 years, and we were riding in the "sticks", I was the only support. I'm so thankful that I'm not doing that now only because I wouldn't be carrying D12 parts with me.

---

I'm reminded of one of the centuries I did in southeastern Ohio when someone flatted one of his tubular tires.

No chase vehicle with a spare wheel, very obviously. No spare tire. No patch kit, sewing kit or glue. The nearest bike shop of *any* kind was probably 50 rural miles away, and it wouldn't have been the kind of bike shop that would have had tubies in stock anyway. Plus, it was a Sunday. :rolleyes:

Three years later I'm still trying to figure out what the guy was thinking going out on a ride like that with those wheels on. At least with tubies you *have* another pair of wheels with clinchers. Not like swapping out your shifters and derailleurs.

This is the first I have heard about DI2...sounds like a great example of an answer to a question nobody asked! What is the point of electronic shifting? At least e-assist on a bike can enable somebody to ride who otherwise might not be able to, and that is a good thing. As for expensive new technology that does nothing but complicate what should be simple, phooey.

CAn definietly understand where you are coming from Oakleaf. Years ago, I was riding on sewups and did have a spare with me. Although what I didn't take into account was that it was fall and very cool out. What that means is that I didn't weigh enough to really push on the bike/wheels and get the glue so that it was soft, so I could change my flat. Friction generally allows the glue to become quite soft, but on that cold morning, well that didn't happen... and here was the mechanic walking back to the shop. That was the last time that I ever rode sew ups, perhaps now the glue is a bit better... but I'd rather know that I can get myself home... because now I do live in very rural area.

I also find electronic shifting like a little "invasion" of sorts, like I would lose something if I get it. However, I can see it can be helpful if you have hand issues. For example, shifting from the small ring to the big ring I always had difficulty (much improved after I splurged on some exotic Japanese cables, though). Electronic shifting might make that easier for me. Also because of my weak grip, I am keeping an eye on hydraulic brakes for a future bike.

Have you gals taken a look at how DI2 works? It's neat to see both derailleurs adjust at the same time. No more cross-chaining.

<Before you throw tomatoes my way, keep in mind that all of this comes from someone who drives a car with a manual transmission, without automatic locks or windows. And I don't have a smart phone, either.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pll

I also find electronic shifting like a little "invasion" of sorts, like I would lose something if I get it.

---

Really, that's exactly how I felt about indexed shifting at first. Not that it stopped me from installing the little washer click-side up when you still had the option of "fretless..."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pll

I also find electronic shifting like a little "invasion" of sorts, like I would lose something if I get it. However, I can see it can be helpful if you have hand issues. For example, shifting from the small ring to the big ring I always had difficulty (much improved after I splurged on some exotic Japanese cables, though). Electronic shifting might make that easier for me. Also because of my weak grip, I am keeping an eye on hydraulic brakes for a future bike.

Have you gals taken a look at how DI2 works? It's neat to see both derailleurs adjust at the same time. No more cross-chaining.

<Before you throw tomatoes my way, keep in mind that all of this comes from someone who drives a car with a manual transmission, without automatic locks or windows. And I don't have a smart phone, either.>

---

I totally agree that if you have hand issues (arthritis, etc), electronic shifting is definitely a plus. I think there's a difference between accommodating so that you can ride comfortably and buying it because of purported performance improvement (and because it's a cool new toy). But then, you could say that about nearly anything.

I used to only ever drive stick shifts, it is the same thing really, who drives a stick unless you have a performance car anymore? I love auto cars. I get hives when I have to drive my DHs stick shift and I drove stick for longer than I have driven auto. I am waiting for the auto version in bike shifting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skippyak

I used to only ever drive stick shifts, it is the same thing really, who drives a stick unless you have a performance car anymore? I love auto cars. I get hives when I have to drive my DHs stick shift and I drove stick for longer than I have driven auto. I am waiting for the auto version in bike shifting.

---

Just in case, mine is not a performance car. I simply like a manual transmission, it's fun to drive. The same car with an automatic transmission is heavier and less responsive.

But I adore the CVT in my Prius... :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kajero

My SO has a TREK e-assist bike. It only assists when you pedal it. He is 83 years old and could not possible go riding without the help. We participated in a 25 mile tour fundraiser last week. Even with the e-assist, he had to stop quite a few times to rest. But he was riding.

---

This is exactly what I meant when I said that I didn't have any problem with e-assist bikes when they help people get out that wouldn't otherwise. But your SO wouldn't be allowed to compete in a race with his e-assist bike against other "normal" bikes. It's OK to do what ever the hell you want to do to your bike but if you put a motor on it, no matter how small (IMHO) it is no longer in the same category as a bicycle without a motor of any kind.

This thread is making me think a lot about why I dislike Di2 so much. Introspection is usually a good thing. Beyond my love for simplicity, here's my thought. I've always cheered for the underdog. I've always believed in a level playing field and felt that anyone could win if they put in the effort. Di2 is allowed to compete in the same field as a regular bike but not everyone can afford it. So in a sense, it's an unfair advantage for those that have the finances to purchase it.

This whole episode was brought on for me when a friend purchased a Di2 bike for cyclocross. First off, I think that's crazy. I know how effed up my bike is at the end of cross season when I have to replace cables, housing, derailleurs and drive train. I can't imagine what the mud and yuck is going to do to a Di2 system and they are not cheap to replace. My friend's arguement is that she has Raynaud's syndrome. The cold and the wet affect her hands badly and result in her not being able to shift as well. That's actually a pretty good reason to get Di2. But does it make it fair in competition?

I feel like Di2 is being pushed upon us by Shimano to sell more stuff. I think they bought off the powers that be to allow it at the pro level because what the pros ride sells. I think the industry is extrememly messed up and Di2 is just part of all that. I'm also p!ssed off that the UCI is only allowing UCI certified frames to compete in cyclocross at an international level. But that's a whole nuther rant.

I guess I don't see the problem. Ultimately the legs determine how fast you are and if someone doesn't like Di2 they shouldn't get it. No one is forced to. Yes, the pros use it, which makes it popular, but that's true of a lot of things in cycling.

+100 on what Wahine said. It really isn't the same thing as a traditional bicycle, and if someone wants one then that is fine - but it can't and shouldn't be compared with a full person-powered bicycle. I think they are great to help those get out who may not be otherwise able to ride. BTW, I also love a manual transmission - but that isn't related :)

I kind of agree about the E bikes. Good for people who wouldn't otherwise be out there, and maybe parents lugging kids and groceries up big hills. One day as DH was commuting to work last spring, some guy dressed in street clothes passed him going up a hill. DH sprinted to catch him and the guy told him it was an e bike. Not fair, at all. In this case, it didn't matter, but still. The guy did not have any disabilities, either (he told DH this). Not sure about the DI2. I'll never get them, for sure. At one time, I could have seen DH wanting them, but not now. It does not seem fair, as Wahine says, to allow them in races, where not everyone has this technology. But, I am not sure how much easier it makes the shifting and how that translates to seconds shaved off of race time. I know how important this is, from my son's brief racing career, but again, a lot of people can't afford it.

I don't buy the 'it's not fair, not everyone has the technology' argument on DI2. There is LOTS that people don't have (and cannot afford) and is allowed in races on the same footing: lighter bikes, nice carbon wheels, amazing TT bikes, properly fit bikes, components that are higher grade than others. Some even race with powermeters and heart rate monitors, aero skin suits, aero helmets. I won't go on. I don't see a fundamental problem with electronic shifting in this dimension -- the playing field isn't level already. Electronic shifting does not propel the bike and, at the end, a strong rider in a clunker can drop the fanciest equipment ridden by a bad rider.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pll

...Electronic shifting does not propel the bike and, at the end, a strong rider in a clunker can drop the fanciest equipment ridden by a bad rider.

---

Yup. At the Pan Am games in Winnipeg in 1999, a Cuban rider on an old steel Colnago track bike won the men's kilo on the track. The second place rider was on a state of the art carbon fibre wind-tunnel tested wonder-bike. The rumour was that it had cost his association almost $20000 to develop.

At the same time, it is sad when $ buys better results for riders within similar skill levels. I know there was a discussion about not allowing TT bikes in the Nature Valley Grand Prix time trial, but, overall, it was good for smaller teams that cannot afford to travel with at least two bikes per rider (and some teams do not have more than one bike per rider). That's an attempt to level the playing field.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pll

I don't buy the 'it's not fair, not everyone has the technology' argument on DI2. There is LOTS that people don't have (and cannot afford) and is allowed in races on the same footing: lighter bikes, nice carbon wheels, amazing TT bikes, properly fit bikes, components that are higher grade than others. Some even race with powermeters and heart rate monitors, aero skin suits, aero helmets. I won't go on. I don't see a fundamental problem with electronic shifting in this dimension -- the playing field isn't level already. Electronic shifting does not propel the bike and, at the end, a strong rider in a clunker can drop the fanciest equipment ridden by a bad rider.

---

All very true. But there is still a supplimental power source that replaces part of the physical effort of effectively operating a bike. No it doesn't propel you forward, but it is part of what allows you to move forward efficiently. I think that actually makes a difference. Having said that, advances in technology like lighter frames, better none electronic shifting, brakes etc don't bother me at all. I'm not trying to claim that my objection to Di2 is fully rational. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wahine

the purist in me objects strongly to a motor on a bike. I get it. It's slick, it's the new thing, it's what the pros are using and Shimano has done a hell of a job with it's marketing. But it's still a motor. It still replaces some of the mechanical effort of the rider to make the bike perform and I'm not OK with that. I'm really not.

Go ahead and put a motor on your bike, but don't pretend it's the same as a fully human propelled bike, because it's not.:mad:

What is the world coming to.;)

Rant over, thank you for listening.

---

Hi Wahine, - et al "purists"
Just to give you a little perspective. I did three upgrades for customers this past summer to Di2. ALL THREE were women with small hands, one with severe arthritis who were really struggling with shifting their road bikes. Two of these customers literally told me they saw the end of their cycling was very near. I feel Di2 gave them a new lease on their enjoyment of cycling.
Sure the "Racer Boys" who run the cycling industry are touting all the "racing performance" of Di2...but performance can be many things to many people.
I'm sure you didn't mean to tell the woman that she is not allowed to enjoy cycling anymore because she has arthritis.
Just a thought.
Seajay

That does not bother me. In the early days, people had only one ring and two cogs, and had to get off their bikes to shift to the other cog. Talk about taking some of the effort out of the equation. So, electronic shifting does not bother me at all. It is a continuum of changes along different dimensions. <But having to apply a software patch to my bicycle would be perturbing to me. So much for rationality.>

"Don't upgrade, ride up grades"

Campy 10 index has work well for me for a number of years now so I don't feel any need to change to electronics and I'm not luddite enough to want to deal with the nuances of friction shifting. Electronics can offer something positive in a number of ways for some people and no matter what that want is influenced by I'm fine with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seajay

Hi Wahine, - et al "purists"
Just to give you a little perspective. I did three upgrades for customers this past summer to Di2. ALL THREE were women with small hands, one with severe arthritis who were really struggling with shifting their road bikes. Two of these customers literally told me they saw the end of their cycling was very near. I feel Di2 gave them a new lease on their enjoyment of cycling.
Sure the "Racer Boys" who run the cycling industry are touting all the "racing performance" of Di2...but performance can be many things to many people.
I'm sure you didn't mean to tell the woman that she is not allowed to enjoy cycling anymore because she has arthritis.
Just a thought.
Seajay

---

I have a friend in the same position. But, she still struggles with braking. And doesn't appreciate the gearing choices for electronic shifting.

It would be great for my spouse but he would never buy it. I think he would rather walk than pay the price.

It is my understanding that the Shimano electronic shifting will not prevent cross-chaining. And I was not pleased with the extra wiring & battery pack that goes along with it. I am especially good at cross-chaining myself & when I heard that the electronic shifting doesn't prevent my careless shifting -pffff!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tokie

It is my understanding that the Shimano electronic shifting will not prevent cross-chaining. And I was not pleased with the extra wiring & battery pack that goes along with it. I am especially good at cross-chaining myself & when I heard that the electronic shifting doesn't prevent my careless shifting -pffff!

---

Well, the front derailleur will be correctly trimmed when cross-chaining with electronics :) Technology does have a way of evolving into better systems!! There will probably be wireless, programmable (to not cross-chain etc.) and very small battery systems in the future!

Electronic shifting is less of a drastic change than clip-less pedals were. Does anyone else remember when they came in, back in the 80s? At that time, criterium races were started from a standing start - the commissaire fired the gun as you stood at the start line and you tried to get your feet in your toe clips and tighten your straps as you rolled forward. Clip-less pedals were seen as unfair, so many commissaires started doing a rolling neutral lap to level the field. Today many still do, even though you never see toe clips in races any more.
The point is, bicycling has always been a sport of ever-improving technology and most of the things we use and take for granted on our present day bikes were "unfair" to someone at some point in the past.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what DI2 is. As far as I understood it, the electronic DI2 only helped you shift better and smoother but does NOT assist with how well you can power your bike with your legs. Therefore, I don't understand how DI2 is "cheating" in terms of being a fully human-pedaling bike.

Mostly the issue will be about the haves and have nots, same old same old, no? Cheating is in the eye of the checkbook holder when it comes down to equipment envy or disgust. It is a lot of money for an upgrade.