I think I've forgotten how to fuel properly.

I ride a lot.
I ride long distances.
I ride short, hard distances.
I usually don't eat anything during a ride less than 2 hours long.
I feel fine.
When I get into riding 3 plus hours, I forget how to fuel.
I'm too worried about too much sugar, too much fat, reading labels, soy lecithin, GMO, paleo, yo-yo.
I'm still trying to lose my last 15 pounds.

Two weeks ago, I rode a 125 mile road ride in 92 degrees. Total, I think I consumed 2 bananas, 1 Honey Stinger Waffle, 1/2 bagel, and 1 1/2 PB&J sandwiches. I fell apart roughly 30 miles from the end. I didn't consume anything for the last 25 miles or so.

In general, I average 17-20mph on long rides. I tend to start out too hard, too fast, and bottom out.

This is become a trend. I'm getting too caught up in, well, everything, that I forget how to fuel. Does anyone have any suggestions... a fail safe routine... a reality check?

I find a timer helps. Set to every 15 minutes.

On every 15, sip some calories.
On every 30, also take a bite and chew something. Blocks, PB&J, rice bar, Clif bar, whatever.
When you feel like it, stop and get off the bike, stretch, and take a few bites.

-- gnat!

I don't increase calories outside the ride. I generally eat as I normally would after a long ride, which is pretty balanced.

I have a "denser" breakfast pre-long ride, consisting of oatmeal and a little PB. I carry with me Shot Blocks, gels, and a banana at least. I try to eat everything I bring with me, but my mind starts to do the math, wondering how much sugar I've consumed, how much fat, etc. so I end up skipping some nutrition.

It's probably a mental barrier more than anything.

Does anyone use a guide of how many calories they're taking in per hour? I know this is subjective - just looking for a baseline.

I'm also thinking I need to get a metabolic test done, to determine exactly how many calories I'm burning both resting and riding. I think that would help me get a clue of what I should be taking in.

Unless you have a health problem that requires you to avoid certain foods, I think you should just eat. Focus on what sits well in your stomach and digests well during a ride. Other than that, forget about everything else and just eat.

Chris Horner likes Snickers bars and Little Debbie brownies during rides. He's been quite successful over a long career as a pro. And he's always smiling.

Just eat what feels good for you.

Personally I have trouble with solid food on hot days, so I generally stick with gels and Gatorade. If I do eat solid food it needs to be very simple -- a tomato sandwich, a Nutri-Grain bar, a banana. Nothing more complex than that, or I'll feel sick. Not too much protein or fat, because that sits like lead in my stomach. But that's me.

I generally plan for ~300 calories per hour for rides longer than 90 minutes. I base that on recommendations from Nancy Clark's writings.

In the summer I make sure at least half the gels I consume are Power Gels because they have more sodium, and I've found that I feel better with more sodium when the weather is hot. Otherwise I like Gu vanilla gels because I prefer their taste and consistency. I alternate bottles of Gatorade with bottles of plain water. I also keep a couple of packages of Jelly Belly sports beans in my top tube bag because they're easy to eat while riding -- I can only eat the gels while I'm stopped. I will usually stop after every 15-20 miles of riding, which at my pace is 1-1.5 hours.

So before a ride I figure out how many gel packets and sports beans packets I will need given the number of miles I plan to ride, and then I add 1-3 more just to be safe, and I pack them in my seat bag/top tube bag/pockets so they will be ready during the ride.

I also aim to drink one bottle per hour. If I reach a rest stop and realize I haven't met that goal, I will drink extra at the stop to catch up.

But this is what works for me. Figure out what you like to eat and drink, plan for 200-300 calories per hour, and implement the plan. Plan rest stops at appropriate times or write reminders to eat and drink on your cue sheet if necessary. If you start to "fall apart," stop and eat something. Don't ignore it and keep riding for another hour or more.


Good luck.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the fact that you fell apart 30 miles before the end may have more to do with your conditioning than your fueling. Was 125 miles or 92 degree heat normal for you? Or were those two things out of the ordinary? If you weren't regularly riding those distances or in that kind of heat, both could have been as much a factor as your intake.

This might be helpful... how much to eat during exercise, from Nancy Clark's blog on active.com:

http://community.active.com/blogs/Na...se-what-to-eat

I would need more protein than that. A LOT more. Protein is where you really find out what your stomach can tolerate, but I do fine with egg salad sandwiches which are available nearly everywhere (as long as you don't think too hard about what's in them :rolleyes:) or as Muirenn suggested, if you boil eggs and leave them in their shells you can carry them in your pocket until you need them. Or you could try Perpetuem, or since I don't do soy or whey protein, when I'm running over three hours, I'll mix my own combination of HEED and Garden of Life protein powder. But it sounds like you just need more calories, more than anything.

Thanks for the tips (I've been riding for 5 years now - this shouldn't be so difficult)! I will definitely incorporate some of them this weekend. I have Allen Lim's cookbook and really should try a few recipes out to see how they agree with me during a ride.

I think the overall umbrella is that I really need to get a metabolic test done to determine exactly how many calories I'm burning. At least armed with that knowledge, I can know for sure how much I should be eating for optimum performance. Anyone have any experience with that?

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Originally Posted by tongue_tied

I think the overall umbrella is that I really need to get a metabolic test done to determine exactly how many calories I'm burning. At least armed with that knowledge, I can know for sure how much I should be eating for optimum performance. Anyone have any experience with that?

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Neh, I don't know how much that will really help. I've had a power meter that can tell me I'm burning 400 calories an hour, but my stomach only seems to be able to handle 250 an hour -- during longer rides, you'll pretty much end up in a deficit no matter what. That means I need to really pay attention to my hunger cues *after* a ride to restock the muscles, and not just blaze into a burrito and margarita.

-- gnat!

It's probably salt, not calories. Even if you are not overweight your body stores calories in fat and glycogen that it can utilize in a pinch. You don't run out of calories over a matter of hours. And your body will compensate. I disagree that's it's a bad idea to compensate later (after the ride). Because your body wants to focus on one thing at a time. It can send blood to your muscles so they can pedal. Or it can send blood to your gut for digestion. It doesn't like to do both at the same time. (That doesn't mean you shouldn't eat on a ride--you should eat if you're hungry. It works even better if you take a break to eat AND digest.)

But you do run out of water and salt in a matter of hours.

Becoming conscious of my salt intake--making sure I get enough--has made the biggest difference for me.

For a long ride, you run out of glycogen if you don't eat. That's what bonking is.

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Originally Posted by ny biker

For a long ride, you run out of glycogen if you don't eat. That's what bonking is.

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Unless you live in the UK. Then bonking is something else. :p

Isn't that why food is recommended to be easily digested? We need to eat; but we also need to not spend a lot of energy digesting the food. I've found that oatmeal as a pre-ride breakfast doesn't work all that well for me for that reason. I seem to do much better with a PB&J washed down with almond milk.

Intensity makes a big difference. At a very low intensity, most people can ride all day with very little food intake, because the very slow process of fat metabolism is nearly enough to keep up. At a long ride average of 17-20 mph (which usually means a normal moving speed of 23-24), you're going to be burning through your muscle glycogen very quickly. You'll need as many calories an hour as your body can absorb just to prevent bonking.

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Originally Posted by Muirenn

I figure about 300 per hour while cycling (of course, everyone is different), but for long distance, your body chemistry changes. Not sure, but it might be better to increase the protein ratio towards the end. (That's what I do, there is probably a good scientific article on the internet somewhere, may completely contradict that. ;)).

It also matters what your body type is., Mesomorph, Endomorph, Ectomorph, bone structure, etc. I'm a mesomorph (naturally more muscular) with heavy bones. And I'm 5'7'', so my baseline calories are higher than someone whose ideal weight is lower. (Mine is about 150, maybe down to 145 if I want to go extremely lean).

I figure (and some disagree, plus, body-type matters) my current weight times 12 to maintain current weight. So, 150 X 12 ='s 1800 calories per day. That is without exercise. With exercise would be 1800 per day plus however many per hour of cycling.

For a short, 1 hour ride at speed, I add about 300 calories, total. Someone who is more petit might have a much higher metabolism, so that 12 could be a 15. And my metabolism tends to increase as I get leaner, mostly because I'm exercising more, I think. But perhaps also I'm burning faster when I weigh less. (Seems like it, anyway). If I wanted to lose weight, I'd subtract 3500 calories per week from my diet, or 500 calories per day (not including ride fuel). One pound ='s 3500 calories. So, 1800-500=1300 calories per day with no exercise should, theoretically, make me lose about a pound per week, or 1800-500 + ride fuel.

I’ve read to take 15 times weight for moderately active women, and even more for very active. For myself, I could see taking 15, but not the next level, which might be 18 times weight. I'd gain eating that much, and probably the 15, too. Point is, know how many calories you need to maintain, and subtract 500 to lose in a healthful manner. (One that isn't too fast and forces your body to lose muscle rather than fat).

Most formulas and doctors' recommendations tend to exaggerate the amount of calories needed, and the amount burned. Same with formulas in Aps like MyFitnessPal.

Certainly, if you have been at your current weight for awhile, the place to start is to figure out your average caloric intake per day, maybe over the course of a couple of weeks, and go from there. But it does sound like you are under-fueling on the bike.

On the ride you mention, you ate approximately 1050 calories. If you look at online cycling calculators, they will probably tell you that is about the amount you burned per hour. I think that is exaggerated, but what you ate is still not nearly enough. You probably needed at least double. Depending.

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I'm running about 170 right now, a lot of muscle and extra skin from losing a lot of weight over the years. I figured I probably burn 500 calories an hour when riding. If I go by your estimate, I need 2040 calories just to get through day to day life. I figured I eat approximately 1700 calories/day, and exercise 6-7 days a week (5 higher intensity days, two lower intensity days with strength). I'm 27 and I have a job where I sit. I get up and walk often. I think, the last time I did a calorie expenditure type of calculation where it factors in your weight, lifestyle, exercise, etc., I was "supposed to" eat 1400/day for life functions, more for exercising.

Also, as far as salt goes, I'm a salty sweater, 100%. I know I need the salt on a ride. My toes cramp, and I read that could be electrolyte depletion. I alternate between Nuun (for zero calorie electrolyte replenishment) and Skratch (for the calories).

All of this is extremely helpful. Thanks so much. I'll definitely try adding more protein during my longer rides this weekend.

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Originally Posted by Muirenn

1400 is very low. How tall are you?

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5'8'' in my dreams - 5'3'' in real life.

This calorie calculator might be of interest. It's more exact than others, because you're factoring in your particular levels of activity. In addition, I think that many of the calorie recommendations are way too low, which can potentially prevent weight loss, because your body is going into starvation mode. So I've seen more than one recommendation to use this measure and subtract 500 from it.

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Originally Posted by luvmyguys

This calorie calculator might be of interest. It's more exact than others, because you're factoring in your particular levels of activity. In addition, I think that many of the calorie recommendations are way too low, which can potentially prevent weight loss, because your body is going into starvation mode. So I've seen more than one recommendation to use this measure and subtract 500 from it.

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This was really interesting and actually reading some of the comments helped (for once). I do think I'm under-eating, in general and this is part of my problem - kind of a hard mentality to get over.

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Originally Posted by Muirenn

1400 is very low. How tall are you? 1700 with riding, should, by the numbers, allow you to lose slowly. That would be less than a pound per week, and would take almost 12 days to lose just one pound assuming no other factors interfered to mitigate any weight loss. For me, my patience ends after a day or two, and I give up or eat much less to lose faster (not recommended). If you have a couple of higher days, you would probably end up maintaining, 300 calories is nothing. When we get thinner, there is just much less room for slipping up or miscalculation). I'm assuming that since you just have 10-15 to lose, then you are taller with a muscular build, perhaps similar to mine? You may need to plateau for a couple of years if you've lost a lot. I guess it's possible to burn the rest off by lowering calories temporarily to get beyond a plateau, but that has to be done carefully. Honestly, 1700 sounds perfect.

You didn’t' mention if you are actually still losing. A heavier person burns more calories just to support their body mass. If you've lost a lot, then that advantage disappears. But you should be burning due to exercise and muscle support. (Having more muscle tends to burn more calories). Have you plateaued? That's often difficult to overcome.

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I haven't lost in several months which is my frustration. I've started strength training and I actually think I might have gained a few pounds. I'd like to get down to 150-155 eventually, but that's another 20 pounds or so.

1. It's not uncommon to gain a few pounds when you start strength training.

2. In my experience, it's very hard to lose weight when doing very long bike rides. In fact I gained weight when I trained for centuries. I was always hungry so I ate too much.

Ditto, I went from 200 to 140 and then started riding and my weight has been creeping up. It was easier when I wasn't trying to do distance rides. Distant for me, that is :-)

I think that mostly the weight loss comes from the kitchen and the exercise is a bonus, don't eat your caloric deficit from exercise, because that is the point of exercise, and as it as been said, endurance exercise is hard to use for calorie deficit because you need to eat to fuel real endurance, consider high intensity exercise more often, consider dropping endurance rides to occasional only, I also don't especially buy into under eating stalling weight loss, people who under eat are underweight, track every actual calorie eaten because THAT is an eye opener, every bite, every drink, everything, I am your height, I have been 200 pounds and to lose weight I have to cut calories to 1200 to lose weight without daily exercise of at least 500 calories burned (estimate, polar f60 or garmin 500/910). I always do a minimum of @3500 calories burned of exercise every week, in summer I am more likely to use @5000, I do not lose weight over summer. In summer, I eat to ride (swim/run) in winter I exercise to eat, I still have 15 pounds as I am at about 137 and have a lot of body fat still left. Eating to ride is a very tricky math problem. Lots of rec riders carry weight. Because we think we can eat like TDF riders LOL.

I agree. If you are worried that you are not losing weight when fueling for riding, then you are not fueling enough for riding. It is a tricky balance. When I first started riding, I had to lose a small amount of weight. It came off in about 9 months (yes, it takes me that long to lose 15-20 lbs.) without doing anything but riding, going to step classes 2x a week, and eating my regular diet, which at that time probably was healthy, but a little carb heavy. I find my weight loss comes from small tweaks to my eating and adding in other types of exercise.
All I know is that when I am doing longer rides (+30 miles), I get very hungry and I know now exactly when and what I need to ingest, so my riding doesn't go to crap. I don't wait until I feel crappy, like I can't finish a hilly 40 mile ride to eat the Shot Blocks anymore...

What you eat off the bike has as much to do with it as how much you eat, too. Personally I can't tolerate much fat at all during exertion, but you need to make sure you're getting plenty of healthy fats in your daily diet, because your body needs those to metabolize stored fat (among other things).

I'm not trying to lose weight, so take this with a grain of salt. I suffer if I forget to eat before I ride, or if I ride in the morning after a light dinner, even if I eat breakfast. I can't have fish (even fatty fish like salmon or tuna) and feel good doing anything over about 15 miles the following day. (Unless I have dessert, of course.) I need a mix of carbs, protein and fat before a ride (even skewed a little toward the fat and protein--carbs are easy to get on the bike!), and protein after, unless I want to eat everything that isn't nailed down.

Very true about the recovery meal. Since these days my rides are pretty low intensity, I'd forgotten about that, but the recovery meal is really critical for me after any run of more than a couple of hours. Supposedly the window for replenishing muscle glycogen starts closing half an hour after your workout and ends about two hours later. If I don't get a good recovery snack (they say 4:1 carb : protein is ideal), then like Owlie I will be completely ravenous for three or four days afterward, and my training will also be affected.

I almost never hungry after long rides. Not for hours and hours. The only time I feel ravenous is after a short, high intensity workout, if I didn't fuel beforehand. And on a day to day basis, the only hours I feel legitimately hungry, like HONGRY, is between lunch (1PM) and dinner (after riding, about 8PM). I'm usually starving between that time. And I drink plenty of water during the day, so it's not dehydration.

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Originally Posted by tongue_tied

I almost never hungry after long rides. Not for hours and hours. The only time I feel ravenous is after a short, high intensity workout, if I didn't fuel beforehand. And on a day to day basis, the only hours I feel legitimately hungry, like HONGRY, is between lunch (1PM) and dinner (after riding, about 8PM). I'm usually starving between that time. And I drink plenty of water during the day, so it's not dehydration.

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You should eat a snack between lunch and dinner. You should not be starving.

I found that splitting lunch so that I eat half at lunchtime and half between 4:00-5:00 gets me through my evening workouts without adding extra calories.

Bear in mind at at 170 pounds and 5'3" you are doing 5 hour century ride's on a regular basis, right? Imagine what kind of speed you will have when you get 30 pounds off. Use an app like lose it or other calories in app, and don't count calories out with them (horribly inaccurate). Decide what you want to achieve this year to improve performance next year. And if you want motivation to cut weight vs fuel endurance, start riding big hills. But mostly, take notice of actual calories in. The math is off when you are not losing weight, it is pretty simple.

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Originally Posted by tongue_tied

I almost never hungry after long rides. Not for hours and hours.

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That's exactly it. I have to choke down my recovery snack, too. Literally force myself to eat it, because eating is the absolute very last thing I want to do right after a hard effort. I pay for it if I don't.

That's one of the reasons so many people like a shake or smoothie for their recovery meal - it goes down so much easier. Liquid calories sort of trick your appetite, which is a double-edged sword. Don't fear it, use it.

I'd lay money your afternoon munchies are either glycogen depletion or too many carbs at lunch, or some combination of the two. There was just yet another study showing how carbs create hunger and cravings.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

That's exactly it. I have to choke down my recovery snack, too. Literally force myself to eat it, because eating is the absolute very last thing I want to do right after a hard effort. I pay for it if I don't.

That's one of the reasons so many people like a shake or smoothie for their recovery meal - it goes down so much easier. Liquid calories sort of trick your appetite, which is a double-edged sword. Don't fear it, use it.

I'd lay money your afternoon munchies are either glycogen depletion or too many carbs at lunch, or some combination of the two. There was just yet another study showing how carbs create hunger and cravings.

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I think candy makes me hungry, but overall carbs do not create hunger and cravings for me. And I eat plenty of carbs. I lost weight eating plenty of carbs.


But anyway, this is the problem that started this discussion:

"This is become a trend. I'm getting too caught up in, well, everything, that I forget how to fuel. Does anyone have any suggestions... a fail safe routine... a reality check? "

And I think we are continuing the "well, everything," with everything we are covering in the discussion, and that will not solve the problem.

Perhaps a food diary would be helpful for the OP. Start with a really honest look at what and how much you are eating and when you are eating it. That might show some clear opportunities for changes, both for eating during rides and healthy eating the rest of the day.

Also think about when you are hungry and whether you find yourself full before you're finished eating a meal. The reason I started cutting my lunches into half-now-half-for-snack-later was because I realized I was getting full before I finished eating my entire lunch. I also realized I was getting full before I finished my dinner, so I reduced the amount of food I ate every night. I probably cut 500 calories out of my daily diet after that, without feeling hungry between meals. And I really think it's best to avoid feeling starved between meals, because that often leads to binging. Smaller meals more often is something worth considering.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

That's exactly it. I have to choke down my recovery snack, too. Literally force myself to eat it, because eating is the absolute very last thing I want to do right after a hard effort. I pay for it if I don't.

That's one of the reasons so many people like a shake or smoothie for their recovery meal - it goes down so much easier. Liquid calories sort of trick your appetite, which is a double-edged sword. Don't fear it, use it.

I'd lay money your afternoon munchies are either glycogen depletion or too many carbs at lunch, or some combination of the two. There was just yet another study showing how carbs create hunger and cravings.

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No carbs at lunch - lunch is 98% of the time a salad with cucumbers, carrots, romaine, strawberries, and blueberries. And a little light Newman's dressing. I've been eating it now for almost 3 years.

So it sounds like, from some of the later replies, I need to continue to decrease my calories in order to lose weight. God bless.

You've been eating the same lunch for 3 years????
I'd add a little protein into your lunch. And vary what you eat, at all of your meals. It's amazing how your body gets used to what we put into it. No wonder you are starved by 8 PM and after riding.
I am one that is absolutely starving after a hard effort. And, even when I eat within that 1/2 hour window, I remain starving, so this is a bit hard for me to relate to. I am not that hungry during a long ride, but I now force myself to eat appropriately/often. I also have to eat half a Lara Bar before starting, even if I just had breakfast, or I am toast within an hour.
This might be an occasion to see an RD, who specializes in sports nutrition. My sense is that you are actually not eating enough and you've put your body into starvation mode. You can lose weight and ride hard, but it takes some work, you need to cook, and adding in some other types of activity help.