To expand the clips to flats discussion, I found this the other day
THe Flat Pedal Manifesto
Ok, so the title is a little deep, but it's a good article, especially if you are interested in the mechanics of a pedal stroke.
I.
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To expand the clips to flats discussion, I found this the other day
THe Flat Pedal Manifesto
Ok, so the title is a little deep, but it's a good article, especially if you are interested in the mechanics of a pedal stroke.
I.
As always, Irulan is full of great information.
My husband bought some SPD with platforms (Shimano PD-M424 SPD Pedals) that he hated, so I might as well try them. Personally, my husband did go uphill 20% faster clipped in compared to flat pedals. Unfortunately, he also fell 3 times trying to unclip. I went to the shop to loosen the tension, but my husband now hates those pedals so much that he doesn't want them anymore.
So....I am going to try clipping in going uphill and staying unclipped on top of the platforms going downhill. No way I can go downhill clipped in because of my clumsiness.
If that doesn't work, I'm going back to my Crampon Flat Pedals which weren't bad.
- I did the combo thing for years, and I can tell you, standing on a platform/combo pedal, not clipped in, wearing a mtb shoe with clips on the bottom is NOT the same thing at all as a flat sticky shoe with flat pedal combo. I did this for years: I'm a strong technical rider and I didn't want to switch due to the "pedal stroke efficiency" stuff that we get hammered with.
In retrospect, it's kind of awkward, as when you are standing on the pedals not clipped in, you are going for the best position where you a)hopefully won't get bounced off and b)you won't get clipped in by accident. By my observation, this is not optimal for best balance and foot position.
My very first ride with the flat/flat combo blew-my-mind. It was incredibly stable. My feet went exactly where they needed to go for best and most natural balance, and I can tell you this is not where they go when you are standing not clipped in on combo pedals. My cornering and balance improved instantly, and I've been riding since 1996. The first ride was a 5 mile singletrack climb, no problems there. And then on the descent, same thing...blew my mind how stable I was cornering. I ride with a PT, and she commented on how from the rear view I have much better joint alignment now than I did when I was clipped in. Short version is, consider ditching the combo pedals, they are a half assed solution. I can say that since I rode with them for the last 8 years.(platform with clip on both sides) :D
Thanks for that perspective, Irulan. I ride with flat pedals and grippy shoes--and I'm pretty darn happy with that combination as a relatively new mtber. I have no intention of switching, but I appreciate hearing about your experiences.
A couple of things I really liked about the " manifesto" is two,points he brings up, the unspoken:
1. How hard it is for most beginners to learn clipped in, and how they are hammered on about how important it is to ride that way unless you are a downhiller and
2. Crashing while clipped in is likely to result in more/bigger injuries. Already I've gotten very comfortable in falling feet first; coming off my bike on my feet where I iChat have otherwise landed on a wrist or shoulder.
I know, I totally sound like I drank the Koolaid. I wish I'd changed several years ago when it was first suggested to me.
Thanks for posting this, Irulan.
I'm still new to a lot of the bike lingo and I haven't fully read that manifesto yet, but... when you say "flat/flat" do you mean a flat pedal and a flat shoe? And if you mean flat shoe, do you mean a sticky shoe?
I have 12 miles logged on my new road bike with the pedals it came with and my awesome pink Chucks. However, my foot slide around a couple of times, so I'm looking to change my set up without going clipless - I'm just too clumsy for that.
I ride with a couple of people who consistently lecture me about how much faster I'd climb on my mtb if I went clipless, even as I get well ahead of them on a climb. Frankly, I'm less interested in speed and WAY more interested in having fun and staying safe. Plus, my red Straightlines look super cool on my bike! :)
Plus one Indy, we ride with people that I think are fantastic, but constantly tell me how I'll eventually move to clipless and I'll be a much better rider. Now with the road bike I have gone clipless and am glad I have, but Hell will freeze over before I do it on my mtb. I love my mtb and enjoy the comfort I have on it. There's no earthly reason why I should ever switch from my sticky shoes and flat pedals. I've never even gotten shinburger (knock on wood.)Quote:
Originally Posted by indysteel
I found everything in that manifesto to be true for me. I rode cross country on flats for years. I did one season of technical riding with clipless pedals. I spent that entire season worrying about whether I was going to be able to get my feet off the pedals in time and avoiding features that I rock on flats. The "fun factor" is back now that I'm on flats again.
Any new riders out there who would like to buy my SPD's?;)
Yes flat/flat means flat pedal with flat(sticky mtb specific) shoe. We've had some other threads that discuss shoes extensively.
Quote:
constantly tell me how I'll eventually move to clipless and I'll be a much better rider.
This is addresses as one of the issues with the transition, and it's pretty much debunked both in the Manfesto ( lol cannot stop thinking about the Unabomber) and by anecdotal evidence.Quote:
who consistently lecture me about how much faster I'd climb on my mtb if I went clipless
I had it out in a way with a shop guy at my favorite LBS. I was looking for shoes, and one of the "kids' ( mid 20's not too much of a kid) actually said, "why would you want to do that?". FWIW he's a mountain biker also, but that's beside the point. I've been mountain biking since he was in grade school, and am known in the community as a coach, trail builder and advocate, and for getting women out on the trails... IE< not clueless>. The condescension of it really ticked me off. Well, I did the right thing and took his manager aside and explained that what A said was really inappropriate for any number of reasons and hopefully it was listened to and respected.
Good for you for saying something.
I started out riding with flat pedals and flat shoes and a lot of people kept telling me how I would climb faster and feel more secure downhill with clipless pedals.
Then I participated in a one week course (MTB clinic style) where the trainer (who is very well known for training various world cup/olympic athletes) insisted that everyone used flat pedals. His reasoning was that using clipless pedals could cover up mistakes in riding technique and using flat pedals would result in "leraning it right from the beginning".
I never switched to clipless pedals after that. I feel more secure downhill, because I can jump off my bike faster or fall without thinking about unclipping. And by now I'm also one of the fastest climbers in our group, without "the more efficient pedal stroke".
At the Midwest Women's Mountain Bike Clinic they also strongly recommended that everyone, regardless of skill level, use flat pedals for the weekend. It was an eye-opener to some of advanced women I talked with - it really did uncover some technique issues and they were thankful for the experience.
It's not just uncovering technique issues, but the split seconds or more you spend clipping in/out really distract from focusing on the skill at hand. You can't stand on a pedal properly unclipped, ( you have to offset your foot so you don't clip) which makes learning certain skills really difficult, like front wheel lifts. I know personally my body position and cornering have improved since freeing up my foot and knee to point into the turn. Etc. Etc.
I have a friend who's gone flat on her MTB after a skills week and her bike handling has improved dramatically. I think I need to consider this.... I'm just not all that confident on my MTB if I'm not riding it regularly - and I'm not.
Any suggestions for flat pedals if I'm not ready to buy sticky shoes as well? Or do I need to bite the bullet and buy both shoes and pedals?
I rode good stiff hiking shoes with my BMX pedals when mountain biking and they worked fine. Found them on sale or I would have paid as much as good sticky shoes though,Quote:
Originally Posted by Becky
you need a low tread, NOT like vibram. A lot of folks wear skate shoes like Vans.
I like having both. The pins of a BMX pedal aren't going to do you as much good if you don't have a sticky shoe with less, versus more, tread. Just bite the bullet!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Becky
If it helps, there are some decent BMX pedals on the market that won't break the bank. Irulan has talked favorably of her Wellgos, and Performance offers one that costs about $50-60 if memory serves.
I just bought new carbon-soled MTB shoes! But I'd like to try flats for practicing in more technical areas. Maybe I can find something on clearance....Quote:
Originally Posted by indysteel
I know they aren't technical, but my pins worked fine with my hiking shoes. The tread isnt deep and the vibram soles help provide the pins a good surface. Soles stiff enough for riding.
Never once did my shoes come off the pedals. Just saying that there are options. I got double use from them - hiking and mtb :)
Regardless of your final choice, have fun!
I'm currently using DMR "Vault" pedals. They stay connected to my shoe very well, even if I just wear regular sneakers. The pins are very sharp - so consider using some kind of shin guard. I still bit the bullet and bought some 5-10 Freeride shoes (they have sticky soles and are stiffer than regular sneakers), but I think any kind of shoe with flat soles will work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Becky
I could have sworn that at one time you were on the hunt for sticky soled shoes for this very concern--based on your riding partner's observation that your feet weren't staying put. But maybe I'm misremembering....Quote:
Originally Posted by Catrin
I was hunting for them because I knew so many people who strongly recommended them and I trusted their opinion - and I thought they might be useful for longer trail rides. Now that you mention it there WAS one time on Limekiln when both feet came off the pedals at the same time but I can no longer remember if it was a traction issue or if my foot hit something. I had forgotten that event!Quote:
Originally Posted by indysteel
As usual, Irulan has very wise advice.
I tried out my husband's SPD that are built into flat pedals, Shimano M424, a few times. I even tried riding downhill unclipped on the flat part of the pedals because I know that I cannot unclip fast enough if I fall.
My "frozen with fear" body on the downhill switchbacks was not worth the 10% uphill improvement being clipped in.
Back to my beautiful Campon flat pedals I go.
Total thread bump, for anyone who's looking for some shoe feedback:
I ended up buying a pair of flat shoes in preparation for an upcoming trip to Ray's Indoor MTB Park. Ok, actually, I bought three pairs and sent two back. I learned that my size in Five Tens and Vans is 1.5 sizes smaller than my running/cycling shoes. So, for my size 8.5 foot, I ended up wearing a men's size 7. I also learned that, of the two pairs of Five-Tens I ordered, the Danny Macaskills are slightly lower in volume than the Freerider VXis. As a result, I ended up keeping the DMs. The uppers on the DMs are quite stiff, but are breaking in well after just a couple of wearings around the office (much to the amusement of my coworkers :D).
Good feedback! The folks at 5/10 told me the Freerider VXi was reformulated for a better fit and would likely fit a low volume foot like mine.
I don't know if I had a pair that were pre-redesign or redesigned, but I wouldn't call them low-volume. I had tons of room in the toebox, height moreso than width. Between the stiff uppers and the volume, I had to do that uncomfortable "yank on the laces till the forefoot buckles and stabs you in the metatarsals" thing. Then again, I'm the one putting 5-Iron in my hiking boots to soak up some volume. YMMV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irulan
It was a shame because they fit well otherwise and I think I would have preferred the slick spot on the VXis to the fully-treaded DMs.