F'ing Root(s)

So I have had 3 legitimate crashes on my new Salsa El Mariachi 3 29er. The bike fits me like a dream and is so comfortable and easier to operate/move than my previous Cannondale F5 26er. But gotdammit I can't seem to handle some roots at all! There is one spot where I have had 2 reasonably bad crashes (the other crash was when my handlebars tagged a tree in a narrow spot). I have hit the SAME root and had my bike slide out sideways from under me. It's in a spot on a slight downhill and camber going into a turn. The root is roughly perpendicular of the trail. DH has nearly lost it in the same spot. I have actually gone down hard.

I never had issues with this spot on the old bike. Is it the tires? Previous bike had Kenda Nevegals, current bike has Conti Trail Kings. I read mostly really glowing reviews of the TKs, but a few people had the same sort of root slip issues that I have had. I have noticed I seem to slip off of roots in other areas, too, but I suspect part of that could be the loose leaves covering the trail (which really unnerve me) and maybe tire pressure was too high. I never had issues with the Nevegals, but that was on a different bike with smaller wheels.

Unfortunately these 2 falls have really made me gunshy and now I am mistrusting my abilities, my tires, the trail...and I keep adding to my bruise collection and the first 2 fingers on my right hand are all swollen from hitting my hand (fell to the left, so I think I whacked my hand/fingers on my bike--handlebars were totally rotated around). :(

Advice?

I'd check tire pressure.

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Originally Posted by Irulan

I'd check tire pressure.

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We lowered it after I crashed, but I was in no mood to go back and try it out again. They were on the firmer side, perhaps. The odd thing is the time DH nearly wiped-out from the same root he was riding his Mukluk with high single-digits psi. I hate that damned root. I have managed to gouge the bark off of a root near it with my frame both times that I've crashed.

Do you have tubeless tires so that you can run even lower pressures with better grip?
______________________________________________________
2012 Specialized Amira Elite, upgraded carbon handle bars, Jett saddle 143mm switched to 145mm 2012 Selle Italia Max SLR Gel Flow saddle
2010 Santa Cruz Juliana with R kit and Crampon pedals
2011 Specialized Ariel Sport,suspension post,Serfas Rx Women's Microfiber saddle (sold)

I don't have any good advice, but I wanted to thank you for the thread title. it made me smile. You can't go a foot on trails around here without encountering roots and I can't count the number of times a root has caused my rear tire to go sliding to the left or right. They are one of the biggest inspirations for me going tubeless and low pressure.

I think I can go tubeless with the Trail Kings...just not sure I'm ready to make that leap. For every good post I read about them I read at least 1 more where people have had issues. I've read sort of mixed reviews of running tubeless on the Trail Kings (a few posts about tiny holes in the sidewall where sealant leaks through). I'd probably want to switch to a different tire to try that.

My guess is I was running ~30psi when I've had the slide-out and bouncing-off-roots issues. I really need to use a better pressure gauge when inflating my tires, since our floor pump doesn't seem to be very reliable for anything other than higher pressure tires. I could probably be running closer to 25psi.

Ahhh I can totally relate. New England is known for it roots and rocks, and I have to admit there are times where I also think "WTF?" For me personally, 30 PSI is WAY too hard, so I might suggest checking with others in your area that are roughly the same size as you are. If I remember correctly, you still own your C-dale, so a good test might be to swap tires and see what your thoughts are then. I know that I've mentioned earlier that I thought the Kenda Nevegals were a great tire, especially in mud, wet leaves etc... this is your opportunity to see what your thoughts are. Let us know if you are able to check the Kendas out; it would be interesting to hear your thoughts as well!!

Don't let this section of trail keep you away from your bike, perhaps try another section to gain back your confidence... you'll be cleaning that section in no time! :)

Maybe the problem has to do with riding technique. You used to ride a 26er but now you're riding a 29er. I would guess that the bikes have different geometries and different vertical & horizontal centers of gravity. If that is right, your riding technique may need to be changed somewhat for the new bike. For example, it might require a lot more forceful body english to keep the bike (with those larger heavier wheels) on track, or it might be a matter of shifting your body position more radically than with the 26er.

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

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Unfortunately these 2 falls have really made me gunshy and now I am mistrusting my abilities, my tires, the trail...and I keep adding to my bruise collection and the first 2 fingers on my right hand are all swollen from hitting my hand (fell to the left, so I think I whacked my hand/fingers on my bike--handlebars were totally rotated around). :(

Advice?

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This is where I was by the end of summer, though it was dust that I kept wiping out on rather than roots. I've no constructive advice to give as you are far more advanced than I, but I wanted to say being gun-shy. I hope your fingers feel better soon. I am sure you will work this out, and the others have good ideas. (((Zoom)))

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Originally Posted by ridebikeme

Ahhh I can totally relate. New England is known for it roots and rocks, and I have to admit there are times where I also think "WTF?" For me personally, 30 PSI is WAY too hard, so I might suggest checking with others in your area that are roughly the same size as you are. If I remember correctly, you still own your C-dale, so a good test might be to swap tires and see what your thoughts are then. I know that I've mentioned earlier that I thought the Kenda Nevegals were a great tire, especially in mud, wet leaves etc... this is your opportunity to see what your thoughts are. Let us know if you are able to check the Kendas out; it would be interesting to hear your thoughts as well!!

Don't let this section of trail keep you away from your bike, perhaps try another section to gain back your confidence... you'll be cleaning that section in no time! :)

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Ahhh...I can't swap the tires, since old bike was a 26er. :( DH and I may swap tires, just to see if what he has on his bike handles these spots differently. I am suspecting that I simply was riding with too much air pressure. From what I'm reading the Nevegals are simply a soft, heavy tire (the heavy probably explains in part why that F5 was such a slow dog of a bike, too), so perhaps that is why I never had issues with those, even at similar PSI. I'm also reading that larger, higher volume tires (the Trail Kings are 2.4 wide--really beefy things) can ride especially low, so maybe the PSI was the real issue).

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Originally Posted by Hi Ho Silver

Maybe the problem has to do with riding technique. You used to ride a 26er but now you're riding a 29er. I would guess that the bikes have different geometries and different vertical & horizontal centers of gravity. If that is right, your riding technique may need to be changed somewhat for the new bike. For example, it might require a lot more forceful body english to keep the bike (with those larger heavier wheels) on track, or it might be a matter of shifting your body position more radically than with the 26er.

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You might be onto something, there. This bike definitely fits me better...not too big, not too small. Previous bike was at least a full size too small and had me really scrunched and upright. Any thoughts on how to handle slippery roots with a more aggressive posture on a bike? The problem with this root is I couldn't even see it. I knew roughly where it was, but it was under some leaves. A lot of the sketchy spots I've hit on the new bike were things I couldn't even prepare for, since they're under a thick layer of loose leaves. Nothing is wet, so the roots aren't slippery with moisture.

One thing DH suggested is making use of the Alternator dropout to move the rear wheel back a hair. This would give me a longer wheelbase and more stability...and perhaps make tackling slippery stuff a bit easier. Though it might make the bike a bit less responsive. Not sure about that tradeoff.
http://salsacycles.com/files/bikes/b...3_2013_fm3.jpg

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Originally Posted by Catrin

This is where I was by the end of summer, though it was dust that I kept wiping out on rather than roots. I've no constructive advice to give as you are far more advanced than I, but I wanted to say being gun-shy. I hope your fingers feel better soon. I am sure you will work this out, and the others have good ideas. (((Zoom)))

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Thanks, Catrin. It's so frustrating and demoralizing, isn't it. I love having a bike that fits me so much better and has much better components--it's so much less work to ride and I'm able to ride longer before tiring--but I hate that I'm feeling like a bigger noob on the new bike than I did on the old bike.

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

You might be onto something, there. This bike definitely fits me better...not too big, not too small. Previous bike was at least a full size too small and had me really scrunched and upright. Any thoughts on how to handle slippery roots with a more aggressive posture on a bike? The problem with this root is I couldn't even see it. I knew roughly where it was, but it was under some leaves. A lot of the sketchy spots I've hit on the new bike were things I couldn't even prepare for, since they're under a thick layer of loose leaves. Nothing is wet, so the roots aren't slippery with moisture.

One thing DH suggested is making use of the Alternator dropout to move the rear wheel back a hair. This would give me a longer wheelbase and more stability...and perhaps make tackling slippery stuff a bit easier. Though it might make the bike a bit less responsive. Not sure about that tradeoff.
http://salsacycles.com/files/bikes/b...3_2013_fm3.jpg

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You could try the technique that those of us who ride without any suspension generally use to cope with obstacles :: Rise off the seat and slightly unweight the wheel that is having to overcome the obstacle (i.e., shift your weight toward the wheel that is most stable). So in your case, try shifting your weight toward the back (to get the front wheel past the root) and once the front wheel is past the root, shift your weight toward the front. The amount of body shifting that is needed is something that you have to learn from experience.

I don't have any idea if lengthening the wheelbase would help or hinder...sorry.

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Originally Posted by Hi Ho Silver

You could try the technique that those of us who ride without any suspension generally use to cope with obstacles :: Rise off the seat and slightly unweight the wheel that is having to overcome the obstacle (i.e., shift your weight toward the wheel that is most stable). So in your case, try shifting your weight toward the back (to get the front wheel past the root) and once the front wheel is past the root, shift your weight toward the front. The amount of body shifting that is needed is something that you have to learn from experience.

I don't have any idea if lengthening the wheelbase would help or hinder...sorry.

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Here's the kicker--I'm not sure which wheel is sliding out...even after crashing in the same spot twice. I was watching for the root yesterday and never even saw it until I was on the ground just beyond it. There are 2 roots, maybe a foot or two apart. I'm almost wondering if both wheels are sliding out--each one on a different root. :confused: The 2nd root is the one with bark sheared-off where my bike frame has scraped along it. DH was right behind me and wasn't even sure what happened. He has had issues with this same spot on his fatbike (not enough to actually fall) and can't determine which wheel slid on him, either.

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

Thanks, Catrin. It's so frustrating and demoralizing, isn't it. I love having a bike that fits me so much better and has much better components--it's so much less work to ride and I'm able to ride longer before tiring--but I hate that I'm feeling like a bigger noob on the new bike than I did on the old bike.

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Sorry - hope you heal quickly! Quick comment on the "return to noob" status- my sons who are way more technically capable than I (6 ft jumps, crazy crooked skinnys etc...) have all commented on the "relearning" process when ever they get a new bike. While an upgrade makes every thing easier ultimately, you are relearning your points of balance and realigning your center of gravity.....So hang in there (:

Ouch. Feel better soon!

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Originally Posted by tealtreak

Sorry - hope you heal quickly! Quick comment on the "return to noob" status- my sons who are way more technically capable than I (6 ft jumps, crazy crooked skinnys etc...) have all commented on the "relearning" process when ever they get a new bike. While an upgrade makes every thing easier ultimately, you are relearning your points of balance and realigning your center of gravity.....So hang in there (:

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I experienced that when I went from a HT to a FS bike. Granted, I hadn't been riding long to begin with, but there was definitely a learning period. Zoom, are you out of saddle for this section of the trail? I can't tell from your description.

I forgot that your new bike is a 29er... hopefully your husbands tires will eliminate some of the guessing. You're also right that a wider tire, 2.3...definitely ride slower as I'm seeing with my new bike. But I guess as always, there are tradeoffs everywhere.

Hope your hand heals quickly, and that you are able to get back out there!!

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Originally Posted by indysteel

I experienced that when I went from a HT to a FS bike. Granted, I hadn't been riding long to begin with, but there was definitely a learning period. Zoom, are you out of saddle for this section of the trail? I can't tell from your description.

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Nope. The stupid thing is that this spot is not the least bit technical, aside from the roots. It's a slight downhill with a slight camber down to the right, so my tires are sliding down the camber and I'm landing on the uphill...what little uphill there actually is. It really follows mostly where the hill meets the flatter ground. The sort of thing that would be completely and utterly unmemorable...were it not for the fact that now I'm scared sh!tless of the spot. When I hit it yesterday I didn't think it was possible that I'd crash there again. Then in that nanosecond of falling the thought that ran through my brain was "seriously...again...WTF is my defect?!"

So would being out of the saddle for this make a difference?

I am somewhat consoled to know that even skilled people have a certain learning curve with new bikes. I ride with a few women who hopped on mountain bikes for the first time in the past 6 months and immediately rode like they were born on a mountain bike saddle. It can be kind of demoralizing at times to ride with them and have them swooping gracefully around in the woods while I am struggling not to destroy myself on beginner stuff.

I can't say for certain that being out of the saddle will help with this particular root. But in general, body bike separation cam aid in your stability. It allows you to shift your weight around the bike as needed and to act as a shock absorber. I find it much easier to react to technical terrain when I'm out of the saddle, especially if I manage to keep relaxed and loose. Even when I feel my bike slipping, I've been able to save myself.

But that said, tire pressure and wet leaves and roots can make things tough. There's no shame in avoiding the section for the time being and building your confidence back up. I freaked myself out last fall by riding in heavy leaves on a relatively new bike. I spent all winter doubting myself. I think it can be a tough time of year to ride, as gorgeous as it is.

Yeah, I really don't like the heavy leaves, to begin with. I have been pinging off of stuff all over that I can't see. The leaves aren't wet, but they're very loose and fluffy. In a lot of areas we can't even see the trail and only know where we're going because it's reasonably familiar.

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Originally Posted by indysteel

I can't say for certain that being out of the saddle will help with this particular root. But in general, body bike separation cam aid in your stability. It allows you to shift your weight around the bike as needed and to act as a shock absorber. I find it much easier to react to technical terrain when I'm out of the saddle, especially if I manage to keep relaxed and loose. Even when I feel my bike slipping, I've been able to save myself.

But that said, tire pressure and wet leaves and roots can make things tough. There's no shame in avoiding the section for the time being and building your confidence back up. I freaked myself out last fall by riding in heavy leaves on a relatively new bike. I spent all winter doubting myself. I think it can be a tough time of year to ride, as gorgeous as it is.

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ditto on the off the saddle- the luna chix pro exterra riders I have taken clinics from harped ad nauseum to stay off the seat- even if it is just half an inch- and if you watch wild little bmx boys (Danny MacCaskill kinda skill).....they never sit! I think it requires conscious effort if you also road bike but once you get used to it you will notice a difference.... (Though I can't say I wreck a lot less cuz I just do harder more technical stuff and faster! hahaha)

One thing that I was thinking about is your mention of pulling the rear wheel back. I'm assuming that your LBS would have left enough chain so that it wouldn't afffect your shifting?? I know the distance isn't all that far, but between the affects of te suspension adn being a bit longer wheelbase... it could have an affect on your shifting.

Heal quick...

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

Nope. The stupid thing is that this spot is not the least bit technical, aside from the roots. It's a slight downhill with a slight camber down to the right, so my tires are sliding down the camber and I'm landing on the uphill...what little uphill there actually is. It really follows mostly where the hill meets the flatter ground. The sort of thing that would be completely and utterly unmemorable...were it not for the fact that now I'm scared sh!tless of the spot. When I hit it yesterday I didn't think it was possible that I'd crash there again. Then in that nanosecond of falling the thought that ran through my brain was "seriously...again...WTF is my defect?!"

So would being out of the saddle for this make a difference?

I am somewhat consoled to know that even skilled people have a certain learning curve with new bikes. I ride with a few women who hopped on mountain bikes for the first time in the past 6 months and immediately rode like they were born on a mountain bike saddle. It can be kind of demoralizing at times to ride with them and have them swooping gracefully around in the woods while I am struggling not to destroy myself on beginner stuff.

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If the problem section is cambered, you should definitely be out of the saddle so that you can not only shift your weight from front to back, but also shift the bike and/or your body from side to side. Think of it like this - you are on a section where obstacles and gravity are conspiring against you and you and need to be able to dynamically adjust your balance throughout the section. An appropriate analogy would be ice skating on a bumpy cambered slope. Your position should sort of resemble that of a horse jockey (butt off the saddle but generally centered over it, torso crouched down, arms and legs adjusting your torso's position forward/backward/side-to-side).

Having said all that, if the front and back wheels are both sliding out at the same time, you may be SOL as far as that section of the trail is concerned.

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Originally Posted by Hi Ho Silver

Having said all that, if the front and back wheels are both sliding out at the same time, you may be SOL as far as that section of the trail is concerned.

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That's kind of what I'm afraid of...perhaps my new bike's wheelbase is just *perfect* to be nailing 2 slippery roots at once. Old bike had a shorter wheelbase, DH's bikes all have longer.

I asked DH if the current chain would present an issue if we set the wheel back further and he said it should be fine. Wheel is currently set in the middle of the range, so the difference would be maybe a half inch.

I'm going to keep playing with the current tires and pressure for a bit longer. DH pointed out that even the most popular tire isn't going to work for everyone and maybe it's worth my trying something else if he tries mine on his bike and likes them. Most of the reviews I saw for the Trail Kings were very glowing, but there were a handful of reviews from people who had similar root slip issues. I liked the Kenda Nevegals and there is a tire they make that is a hybrid of that and the Small Block 8 (which I don't love, but mostly because we have a lot of sand around here and it doesn't do great in that) called the Slant 6 that sounds like a really good combo...much lighter than the Nevegals (which I saw referred to as "nevergos" in one place, heh).

I noticed a difference with roots and rocks when I moved to Mountain Kings on the rear of my Jamis. While I changed it to get better grip in dust pools, I noted that I was getting more traction in the rear going over roots and rocks as well. You are a more aggressive (and much better) mtb rider than I am, but it might be worth considering. I don't know if it is any lighter than the Nevegal.

Interesting...I think the Mountain Kings had some pretty negative reviews when I was looking around online for tire recommendations. It all seems so relative.

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

Interesting...I think the Mountain Kings had some pretty negative reviews when I was looking around online for tire recommendations. It all seems so relative.

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It really does, my LBS staff really likes them and they are all avid mountain bikers. Several of them travel all over the country to ride, and most of them use them. They aren't inexpensive. Sometimes I think that for some people it is easier to give negative feedback rather than positive. It boils down to our own experience...

You might also consider the Panaracer Rampage as an alternative to the Nevegal. IME, they roll faster than the Nevs. No idea what the weight difference is though....

Also, it just occured to me: is it possible that this is just "new tire" slipperiness? I often notice more slipping and sliding with a new pair of tires.

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Originally Posted by Becky

You might also consider the Panaracer Rampage as an alternative to the Nevegal. IME, they roll faster than the Nevs. No idea what the weight difference is though....

Also, it just occured to me: is it possible that this is just "new tire" slipperiness? I often notice more slipping and sliding with a new pair of tires.

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I wonder...I don't know enough about the properties of mountain bike tires to know what is normal.

The Panaracer Rampages are one that I have on my list of tires worth looking at if I decide that the Trail Kings are not the tire for me.

Today we rode some miles at some different trails. These trails have some rooty spots and didn't give me much trouble, but this area also has lots of pine needles, instead of leaves. For the most part I could actually see the roots. We also had my tires a bit softer than they were the other day. I really want to ride with a tire pressure meter to have a better metric of what is working and not working. Going by feel is really tough with mountain bike tires. With my road and CX bikes it's much more obvious what is higher PSI vs. lower.

I do love the way these tires handle sand, which is a big issue around here.

you could throw a hatchet in you bag :)

Ha, I suggested that to DH and he gave me a look. :rolleyes:

I despise perpendicular roots! They grab your tire and you slide along them rather than going over. Maybe the problem IS the bigger tire, the root has more to grab onto!