http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/sp...pagewanted=all
Lance may be stripped of all TdF titles.
Printable View
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/sp...pagewanted=all
Lance may be stripped of all TdF titles.
His official statement.
http://lancearmstrong.com/news-event...august-23-2012
sometimes, I wonder about USADA. I don't like them!
Jurisdiction issues are really big sticking point for me. There is UCI, so why does USADA think it has the authority to tell other sports organization on what to do.
I also am not sure about how clean Lance is but if he managed to not get caught after so many suprise visits by the vampires and all, I have to give him more than reasonable doubt.
I think it's going to hurt the Tour more than Lance himself. This proves nothing - his fans will stick around and his enemies will hate him anyway. But revoking 10 titles since 96 is going to kill all respect for the results of the TdF.
So who wins? I think every second placer has also been implicated in doping scandals.
What a mess.
I think that basically, folks who thought he was clean will still think he was clean and those who doubted will continue to doubt... and it's not as if people are going to forget those seven titles no matter what the "official" guys say. I think it's a smart move on Lance's part -- time to move on!
I agree, it solves nothing but makes things a mess. We know he won tours when others clearly were doping. So IF he doped, wasn't it a level playing field. I want to believe he did not dope. And even if he did, could you really dope for that long and still be that good? Wouldn't it eventually mess you up one way or another? Or get so that you can't really keep "out performing"?Quote:
Originally Posted by jessmarimba
I'm sure this will eventually be a controversial thread.
K
Whether or not one always was a Lance or fan or not, this clearly confuses and tarnishes the Tour /other big competitive international cycling races.
We know someone who competed in Europe when he lived there for a few years..... doping was common among the racers. This was awhile back. Did he dope? Yes.
I don't agree that him dropping the fight against them, admits guilt. I also don't agree that they should be allowed to ban him for life when he has never been convicted.
I'm not sure. If he's using EPO, wouldn't he just need it for the races? So a surprise visit, mid year, would turn up zero, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingcat
I completely understand him wanted to end it. But also consider that the investigation was going to make a completely different turn and many of his teammates were prepared to testify against him. For a man of Armstrong's ego, this could be devastating. I've found Armstrong quite fascinating and have read a lot about him. He is driven and fanatical about protecting his reputation. He has used his clout to get his way when he was criticized, e.g., the Lemond/Armstrong feud that resulted in Lemond apologizing publically - and in return Lance would not withdraw his support of Trek bicycles.
Not long ago, a U.S. district judge in Austin threw out Armstrong's lawsuit against the USADA because it was basically 80 pages of propoganda designed to influence the public opinion on his case. You'd think that Armstrong with his legal team would know better.
Did he do it? I tend to think yes. Armstrong would talk about his exceptional VO2max, but when tested it was found to be about the same for most professional cyclists. Why would Armstrong, given his zeal for managing his publicity, associate with Ferrari? Why is LA Confidential only published in French? Why are there no teammates coming forward to profess his innocence? Armstrong has the means and motive to dope and cover it up. Ferrari was accused of combining testosterone & olive oil because it makes testosterone undetectable. Armstrong was found to have paid Ferrari almost a half a million dollars in 2006 but supposedly their relationship ended in 2002.
Still, it does taint the sport very badly.
I have always believed he was doping, but so were most others. So to me that makes it a level playing field. This doesn't take away from the amazing wins in my eyes.
By the way, I don't like Lance, but I think it is too late to me doing this!
Ugh, I forgot - Johan still has an arbitration hearing coming up. Still a chance for messy, dirty legal proceedings.
I'm not a particular fan of Lance. I'm also not surprised that he stopped fighting over it--the whole process has got to be wearing. I think he was doping, but then, so was everyone else. It just seems like a matter of trying to make an example of him.
That's exactly what I was thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by redrhodie
Here are the second place finishers:
1999 Alex Zulle, 2000 Jan Ullrich, 2001 Jan Ullrich, 2002 Joseba Belocki, 2003 Jan Ullrich, 2004 Andreas Kloden, 2005 Ivan Basso.
Ullrich and Basso were both suspended for doping, but I don't know about the other guys. It will be interesting to see how this affects the outcome.
But I'll never think that Lance didn't win.
Personally, I feel after 500 tests with nothing it is a witch hunt. In competition testing as well as out of competition testing, all negative. Offering leniency to admitted dopers in exchange for testimony against lance, doesnt seem like a truth mission. was he doping? maybe. I dont know. NOne of us really do. LA will always be a 7x Tour Winner in my mind. No matter what they decide.
on another note regarding the USADA. Hope Solo tested positive for banned substances 2 weeks before the olympics. The USADA slapped her on the wrist and let her compete. Should Team USA have their gold medals taken away? Just a thought.
I agree. What good will come of stripping all these titles from the past? If competitors passed the dope tests at the time, they should keep their medals and the sport should move on. All this does is make the Tour results a joke. The anti-doping agencies should concentrate on cleaning up the sport from now on and leave the past in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingcat
Stolen from elsewhere (2nd place finishers):Quote:
Originally Posted by redrhodie
1999: Alex Zulle, who admitted to taking EPO as part of the Festina affair. On 28 November 1998, Zülle’s haematocrit was found to be 52.3%, 2.3% over the limit.
2000, 2001, 2003: Jan Ullrich was found guilty of a doping offence by the CAS. He was retroactively banned from August 22, 2011, and all results gained since May 2005 were also removed from his Palmares.
2002: Joseba Beloki was among those implicated in Operación Puerto and was withdrawn from the 2006 Tour de France.
2004: Andreas Kloden. In 2009 allegations emerged claiming that Andreas Klöden used the Freiburg University Clinic for an illegal blood transfusion during the 2006 Tour de France.
2005: Ivan Basso. In 2007 he admitted he was planning to use doping and was suspended for two years.
In all sports it seems we, the fans, expect new records every year thus putting immense pressure on the athletes and the teams. Sponsor pressure them to perform, trainers answer with performance enhancing stuff and there we are a vicious cycle. I don't have any answers but in part I think we, the fans, need to say enough is enough and let's see results based on fitness, health and strength.
USADA arbitration court has a pretty skewed record *against* the defending athletes, something like 2 to 50. With pretty much any shred of evidence that holds water against Lance, he'd be most likely taken down as guilty. Had this argument been held in a federal court, like Bonds and Clemens, he'd have a better chance of being acquitted on some technicality.
But instead, by just quitting the whole deal without admitting guilt and without having himself and his foundation dragged through the mud, he can get this:
"But I'll never think that Lance didn't win."
"LA will always be a 7x Tour Winner in my mind. No matter what they decide."
...which is probably a better outcome for him and LiveStrong.
He's had sponsorships and other sources of income, so losing the TdF money is probably not going to hurt much. Even if the official titles are stripped, people will always remember the 7 wins anyway. Regardless of did/didn't, won/lost, whatever, this was probably the least painful of his options at this point.
I'm not so much fascinated in the doping itself as with the fallout that happens afterwards. Landis? Destroyed. Basso? 2 year ban and back like nothing happened. Vinokurov? Serves his ban without admitting guilt, wins gold in the Olympics and is treated like a villain. Vaughters? Comes clean over Twitter and the NYtimes, now held as a hero and hope for the future of cycling. One pattern that seems to be true: if you say for years you didn't do it, then later say you did: THAT seems to piss off the most people. Everyone keeps wanting Lance to "just say it, just say you did it," but everything I've seen says that would be the WORST blow to Lance's image at this point, since he's been the most outspoken about his innocence. He probably knows that.
-- gnat! (who once raced on Claritin-D, there, I said it)
Maybe race organizers could implement a doping control modeled after customs in Mexico. Line up, push a button, sometimes there's a green light and you walk through sometimes there's a red light and your stuff gets searched.
Red light in cycling, the rider could randomly get tossed out of the race, or better yet, spin a big Wheel of Fortune to win anything from a lifetime ban to a slap on the wrist.
;)
I'll admit when I first heard that he was giving in that it sounded tantamount to an admission of guilt, but then I read his statement and I think it's just the opposite... He may be taking the best route here - rather than trying to fight it out and having to attempt to "explain" things he's just saying enough is, enough and that they've created impossible demands. I have told my story and if you can't accept it, there's no way I can give you more....Quote:
Originally Posted by lovelygamer
It's smart if you ask me - look at the other guys who have tried to fight - ie. Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis. Both of them ended up so desperately trying to explain away things that their stories became so twisted and outlandish that it became believe anything they said and they tripped themselves up, by telling too many fish tales.....
Zulle was actually arrested and thrown in jail at one point.... (there was some scandal over his treatment - apparently he's *seriously* nearsighted, like almost blind uncorrected and his glasses were taken away) He was involved in the Festina affair and has admitted to doping. Klodi was Ullrich's right hand man for years - guilt by association?Quote:
Originally Posted by redrhodie
The media's getting all het up here, it's almost all that's been on the news today. I don't know if they are the same over there but they seem to love to take down anyone who achieves. Guilty by media just to sell papers. Personally I don't care if he was taking something, as has already been said it probably made it so he competed on a level playing field. He, like all those that ride the tour are amazing, I couldn't do it, there wouldn't be a substance strong enough to get me up those hills day after day. Perhaps I could build an electric motor into Lisa //*-*\\ Wasn't that one suggestion of how they could climb so well?
I do wonder though why women don't compete in the tours. Or have their own? Could it be we are more sensible? I apologise heartily if there are women tours and tourers, I would have total admiration.
Since they've started stripping TdF winners of their titles, the TdF has really lost its luster for me. It taints every exciting moment and memory I have from following the event. I no longer have any desire to watch TdF because I know a few weeks/months (and now years and years) down the road the USADA will call foul and illegitimatize the entire event. Don't they do enough testing before and during the race? Shouldn't that be enough?
I used to be a fan of TdF. I won't watch it anymore, haven't for the last two years. USADA and the many, many "scandals" have ruined pro cycling for me.
I'll stick to riding my bike, alone, in the wilderness, on some single track. Nothing but me and my bike.
Yet, I still am a fan of Lance. Can't explain it. But I am.
In some ways, I feel like limewave; I haven't stopped watching the Tour, although this year, I saw less of it. But my entry into the cycling world, many happy memories of watching the Tour with DS #2, and Lance's achievements are all sort of connected for me. We discovered the Tour (and Phil and Paul) during one of our last family vacations on Cape Cod. The house we rented had OLN and when DS caught a fleeting glance of the peloton as he was channel flipping, that was it.
There is women's racing and women's tours (Giro Donna etc.) and women who dope.... it's just that none of it ever makes the mediaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dizzie
I looked on wikipedia, in 2002, I had to all to #30 before I saw a name that ring a bell with me re: a doping scandal. But then, #30 didn't ring a bell to me either. This is like placing a lock on the henhouse door after the fox has eaten your prize hen.:(:(:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by redrhodie
How the heck can they strip him of his Tour titles? They don't run the Tour, or even pro cycling. That's up to the UCI, which is based in Europe.
Is the USADA over all US sports? How long have they been aroudn?
Can anyone give a 101 description of the various orgs involved?
USADA? UCI? Are there others?
Sorry, I only really started watching TDF and other cycling events this year and am just not familiar with all the orgs and very confused!
I think because UCI agreed to follow the USADA doping standards, they *have* to strip them if they want to be considered in compliance. So I guess the decision really lies with UCI in the long run, but they've been sort of backed into a corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuliajuk
I'm sure there are a million articles and op-ed pieces on this whole fiasco, but I thought this was a well-written commentary:
http://www.pelotonmagazine.com/Wilco...Armstrong-Case
So far it's all rumor, but I think they were offered a deal -- we know you doped too, tell us what he did and we'll let you off easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muirenn
If they have any info from the federal investigation, then I think the various teammates could have been jailed for perjury if they didn't tell the truth. However I don't know if USADA has any of that information, since I think I read everything from those types of investigations are sealed once they are closed.
I'm starting to think USADA is out to get UCI and TdF. :mad: It's not American ya know... The whole thing stinks of witch hunt.
Why not the NFL, NHL, NBA, All american baseball AL and NL...
Yes women's cycling, we do have cheaters. gnat says claritin-D, and I used to know someone who used banned stuff. Just go to your local "muscle" gym and get to know the pumped up guys.
No matter how much drug I take, I'll never outperform any reasonably fit cat-4 racers. Just too old, out of shape and just too spooked to take chances for a crash.
slightly on a different note and on a lighter side of things http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQhHyHkCeBo
I am not a particular Lance fan but their case seems to be largely that they feel he must have cheated (and I think he probably did) but didn't manage to catch him so that is PROOF that there was a conspiracy. It is ugly and I don't think helps sport at all. I think it interesting that the USADA goes after cycling and baseball but leaves football alone (despite some high profile positive tests) and the NBA doesn't even test.
You know, I have never been able to get at all interested in ANY pro sports...not TdF, none of it. Because there is just an ugly culture of money and drugs and illegal and/or immoral behavior being brushed under the rug. I can't invest my time in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingcat
But, yeah, we know there are EPO users in other high-profile American sports--why is the scrutiny not equal?
As many in this forum may have realized, I am not a Lance Armstrong fan. However, the USADA should (1) respect jurisdiction (they cannot strip titles not awarded by them); (2) prove their case before issuing or "leaking" any statement or information to the media. The way these cases are (man)handled is astounding. It hurts the sport and it certainly does not help the cause of getting rid of dopers.
Even then, I have fun watching the grand tours and classic races.
Good point!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by nuliajuk
I really do think he made the right decision given his work with Livestrong. I am annoyed that he is making himself out to be a victim. When you put yourself out there, you're going to get criticized. He's made millions with endorsements. The American people are amazingly forgiving when it comes to certain populations (look at Michael Vick, the dog fighter, NFL pro).
Yes, they do test. In fact,their new contract reads that they can be tested 2X during the off season for performance enhancing drugs. They cannot be tested in the arena before a game, however. Probably don't want to hold up the television audience. Can your hear Marv Alberts, "Hold on fans, Steve Nash is peeing in a cup..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyabeth
Signed - rabid NBA fan
I'm not aware of how these drugs work exactly, but how does testing in the off season tell them anything about the actual season?