working hard but can't get HR up!

Hi all,
I just found this forum last night, and I was so excited! I got my road bike a year ago and have made good progress this year - as in I'm not scared to ride down my 1/2 mile gravel driveway or to go fast down hills, and I'm getting in better shape. I'm even, on good days, starting to keep up with my partner, Michael - a former racer who is a good bit older than me (I'm 27) but lots, lots faster.

So much for the preamble. My question is: we've been reading Chris Carmichael's training books, have a HR monitor, and have done a couple of fitness tests to try to determine max sustainable heart rate. We've done these on the trainer - all out 8 minute efforts - and I THINK I was working all-out. Like I could hardly breathe, legs burning, etc.

But my average HR for the 8 minute period was only 163. My peak HR was only 172 or so. Using the standard 226 minus age calculation, my max HR should be quite a bit higher - like almost 200.

So two questions:
1. Why can't I get my HR up more, even momentarily? Do I just need to get used to working harder?
2. If I use Chris' formula and work out at 89-91% of my max, I end up with a HR ceiling of 145 for aerobic conditioning. That feels like nothing - I end up pushing higher just to feel like I'm getting a workout.

Any insights would be much appreciated!

Solveig

What is your HR when you are biking or running up a really tough hill? That ought to show you your _real_ max HR. One clue for me is I am working so hard I can barely spare a single glance at my monitor- I have to check for max HR after I can breathe again.

Nanci

i haven't done a "field test" to get my max heart rate yet.. cuz i think i know i will sandbag it anyways :rolleyes:

i lilke nanci's idea of checking HR when climbing.... i can get mine up there then... (but sometimes.. ok... lots of times... i'll sandbag)

i got to my mostest highest heartrate (to the point of seeing stars) when being chased by a pack of 3 dogs in the middle of the desert... scared out of my mind! i haven't reached that high since (or before!)

i actually opened this thread expecting to see that on a regular basis.. or some days you were riding and thinking you were riding hard and your HR was just not getting up there... that happens to me... i'll be pedaling my little legs off (and not sandbagging!) and my HR will NOT go up! i always wonder why... overtraining? just tired? it irks me!

the only think i can think is maybe you really aren't working has hard as you really can?

There has been quite a few discussions of heart rate on this forum. From what I have gained discussing this with various doctors (off their shift and informally, though), there is a HUGE variation between individuals as far as max heart rate goes. I am the same age as you (27) and the max I have held for a minute is more around 220, way beyond the predicted 193. This used to scare me (I'd stop counting my pulsations in aerobics classes and lie about my heart rate when the instructor would ask!) but I have learned that it's just me and that I should live with that. On the other hand, it would be ridiculous for me to train at 145, I don't even feel anything at that point.

If variation on the higher side is normal, I do not see why variation on the lower side wouldn't be, and I'd be cautious with trying to voluntarily push things further than your max. Maybe you just have a stronger, bigger volume heart. However, taking the heart rate monitor on a favorite hill and climbing it energetically will certainly be an interesting test. Just make sure you go with someone and don't push to the point of passing out. Feeling a taste of blood in your mouth/having to vomit is an indicator that you should stop. :eek:

So "listen to your heart" :) and ask a sports medicine professional if you have a chance.

That "220 minus age" formula really is a very, very rough guide. People who are in good shape will be higher than that; people not in such good shape will be lower. A more effective way of measuring your heart rate is perceived rate of exerction (which it sounds like you were doing with your trainer). The most accurate rate of all is to go to a local gym that does O2 metabolic assessment profiles. They'll have you strap a mask on your face and then run on a treadmill (or use a stationary bike) and will measure your breath output for levels of CO2 and will be able to tell you exactly what your max heart rate is, how many calories you burn per minute at different levels, whether you are burning carb calories or fat calories, etc.

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Originally Posted by Grog

There has been quite a few discussions of heart rate on this forum. From what I have gained discussing this with various doctors (off their shift and informally, though), there is a HUGE variation between individuals as far as max heart rate goes. I am the same age as you (27) and the max I have held for a minute is more around 220, way beyond the predicted 193. This used to scare me (I'd stop counting my pulsations in aerobics classes and lie about my heart rate when the instructor would ask!) but I have learned that it's just me and that I should live with that. On the other hand, it would be ridiculous for me to train at 145, I don't even feel anything at that point.

If variation on the higher side is normal, I do not see why variation on the lower side wouldn't be, and I'd be cautious with trying to voluntarily push things further than your max. Maybe you just have a stronger, bigger volume heart. However, taking the heart rate monitor on a favorite hill and climbing it energetically will certainly be an interesting test. Just make sure you go with someone and don't push to the point of passing out. Feeling a taste of blood in your mouth/having to vomit is an indicator that you should stop. :eek:

So "listen to your heart" :) and ask a sports medicine professional if you have a chance.

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Sorry this is a bit off topic but what causes that blood in mouth taste. Dont seem to ever get that anymore - too lazy for that now, but when I was younger and running and really pushed things in a race I did.

Heart rate is almost entirely genetic, my max is around 200, and despite working out PLEANTY for three years my resting heart rate is around 75. If you can't get professional testing go hard up a hill and then add 5 beats or so (because no matter how high I get it climbing, it always goes higher during a race).

Trekhawk-is the taste you're refering to metalic? That's fairly common I think, but I have no idea what it is, an google has no answers! :eek: I thought google knew everything.

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Originally Posted by runnergirl

Heart rate is almost entirely genetic, my max is around 200, and despite working out PLEANTY for three years my resting heart rate is around 75. If you can't get professional testing go hard up a hill and then add 5 beats or so (because no matter how high I get it climbing, it always goes higher during a race).

Trekhawk-is the taste you're refering to metalic? That's fairly common I think, but I have no idea what it is, an google has no answers! :eek: I thought google knew everything.

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Oh no so google is not all knowing. :eek: Im devastated. :D

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Originally Posted by runnergirl

Trekhawk-is the taste you're refering to metalic? That's fairly common I think, but I have no idea what it is, an google has no answers! :eek: I thought google knew everything.

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I think they're different. Not sure about the cause of the blood taste, but the metallic taste (and breath) is from your body burning fat for fuel. "Metal mouth" happens to people who loose fat. Not a very pleasant taste...

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Originally Posted by Rakekay

That "220 minus age" formula really is a very, very rough guide. People who are in good shape will be higher than that; people not in such good shape will be lower. A more effective way of measuring your heart rate is perceived rate of exerction (which it sounds like you were doing with your trainer). The most accurate rate of all is to go to a local gym that does O2 metabolic assessment profiles. They'll have you strap a mask on your face and then run on a treadmill (or use a stationary bike) and will measure your breath output for levels of CO2 and will be able to tell you exactly what your max heart rate is, how many calories you burn per minute at different levels, whether you are burning carb calories or fat calories, etc.

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The 220 minus age formula is actually completely useless. It is not based on any science and can be thrown out the window. Your fitness level and genetics gives you the answer. O2 metabolic testing or "VO2" is very accurate. Personal "all out -can't give anything else -hope I don't vomit" heart rate testing is also quite accurate.

Thanks for the feedback! I'll definitely try the hill thing - as soon as the snow quits - and see if a gym in my area does O2 metabolic assessments. I'm already learning a lot on this forum - thank you all!

Check the local universities also. Max Testa, MD, is here at UC Davis so it is THE place to go locally for such testing.

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Originally Posted by Trekhawk

Sorry this is a bit off topic but what causes that blood in mouth taste. Dont seem to ever get that anymore - too lazy for that now, but when I was younger and running and really pushed things in a race I did.

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WebMD says that a metallic taste in the mouth is called dysgeusia and it can be caused by infections in the mouth among other things....
http://www.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/not257897.asp

But I suspect that this wasn't the cause of the taste for you Trekhawk. I sometimes notice a weird metallic taste in my mouth when I get a sudden jolt of adrenalin -- like at the start of a race or when someone startles me. I think adrenalin probably causes a "rush of blood" and since our blood cells carry iron that is what leads to a metal taste in the mouth.

- traveller

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Originally Posted by Grog

There has been quite a few discussions of heart rate on this forum. From what I have gained discussing this with various doctors (off their shift and informally, though), there is a HUGE variation between individuals as far as max heart rate goes. I am the same age as you (27) and the max I have held for a minute is more around 220, way beyond the predicted 193. This used to scare me (I'd stop counting my pulsations in aerobics classes and lie about my heart rate when the instructor would ask!) but I have learned that it's just me and that I should live with that. On the other hand, it would be ridiculous for me to train at 145, I don't even feel anything at that point.

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I'm so glad I'm not the only one!!! My max is at least 208, but probably higher, and I'm 25. When I first got my heart rate monitor, I used 226 minus my age, programmed in my "aerobic" zone with the alarms turned on, and went off on a ride. The alarm was going off at the upper end after about 10 minutes. Even though cycling has dropped my resting heart rate about 10 beats per minute, my heart rate while exercising is still substantially higher than predicted by the stupid formula. I've always been this way, even in Jr. High when we did interval workouts for cross country. Everyone else was around 140 and I was 170. After a few times, I just started to lie.

Great topic! And interesting comments.
Everything I've read supports the idea that an individual's HR is just that! Valid only for that person. The "220 - age" is an extremely generalized number. If I went by that, I could just about sleep at my mid-range rate. My heartrate tends towards high. Perhaps too much coffee?? :rolleyes:

Not sure where I read this method of finding your max HR on the bike, maybe RBR, but here goes:

Find the STEEPEST hill in your area. So steep that you are standing on the pedals and totally unable to talk when you reach the top. Should not be long, just steep. Ride as hard as you think you can sustain up the hill. A short distance from the top, when you think you absolutely cannot go any faster, sprint. Use whatever little bit of energy and breath you have left in you. Crest the hill, look at your HR. Look at it 3 seconds or so after you crest. (Can take the monitor that long to catch up.) That should be your max HR. Sounds sadistic, doesn't it? (INSERT EVIL SMILIE HERE). It's no fun, that is for sure. I try and do it only twice a year. Once early in the season, and once towards the end. Fun to compare. Also interesting to compare, year to year and see the somewhat unavoidable effects of aging. :mad:

I don't have any ideas for you people without steep hills, tho'. But I am quite sure there are methods equally as sadistic for you........... :eek: :rolleyes:

Once you've got that max rate, you can figure the other percentages from there.

I've been told max HR is different in different sports. IE - your mx HR in biking may be different than your max in running, swimming, skiing. Anyone else know if this is true?

annie

A few things:

1) I would strongly recommend AGAINST experimenting the method described by Annie ALONE. Absolutely GO WITH SOMEONE. And, please, not anywhere isolated from civilization. It's kinda extreme. And of course if you have any doubt about your cardiovascular health, or if you have been sedentary for a while, see a doctor first and foremost.

2) High heart rates while exercising are not something to worry about, but I still think it's important that we try to lower our resting heart rates, and decrease the time it takes to go from the top heart rate to the rest heart rate. I am not a heart doctor, but I'm quite sure that someone with a heart rate of over 100 when just sitting around should worry more than a bit.

3)

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I've been told max HR is different in different sports. IE - your mx HR in biking may be different than your max in running, swimming, skiing. Anyone else know if this is true?

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I doubt it. At what seems like similar intensities, my heart rate is very different depending on the sport I'm doing (the difference is especially steep between running and biking) but I don't think that changes anything to the concept of maximum heart rate. Maybe what you mean is this: Although my average heart rate goes up more easily when running, I know for sure that I can hit my max more easily when on the bike because my heart can work just as hard without other parts of my body feeling too painful, because my weight is supported by the bike.

Be safe ladies, and enjoy!

[QUOTE=Grog]A few things:

1) I would strongly recommend AGAINST experimenting the method described by Annie ALONE. Absolutely GO WITH SOMEONE. And, please, not anywhere isolated from civilization. It's kinda extreme. And of course if you have any doubt about your cardiovascular health, or if you have been sedentary for a while, see a doctor first and foremost. (QUOTE]


Thank you, thank you, Grog! For bringing up the safety considerations. I apologize for not putting that out there. Absolutely be sure you are not going to endanger yourself and do have back-up, just in case. Tho' I don't think it's all that extreme....... just testing the limits of what you can do, which can be an exhilarating experience. Just be smart about it.

annie

I can recommend Annie's method of measuring max (although, as said, take someone with you)

When I first started riding I was in the position of having a 10-11% short stretch to climb up about 1km before my house...

I can get up there alright now, but there is a longer hill I can do this on, but riding up there was almost the "ride til you puke" sensation... and when you throw up you know you are maxed out...

I have never vomited but once you approach that level, you know that your heart rate will be up there.

*warning :p
do not try this alone :cool:

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Originally Posted by RoadRaven

*warning :p
do not try this alone :cool:

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'Cause if you are gonna puke, you'll want someone to hold your hair back. :p

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Originally Posted by tlkiwi

'Cause if you are gonna puke, you'll want someone to hold your hair back. :p

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LOL - someone with a strong stomach though or there might be two pukers by the side of the road. :D :D :D