Handling Corners?

I bought a couple of books and started working turning corners with my bikes. I can hit 17 mph around a street corner on my mountain bike with no problems using the tecnhiques from both books.

However; when trying it with my Madone at around 10mph I felt like the bike was going to slip out from under me. Not that I want to beat a speed limit, but I want to corner safely on this bike. It's so light that even a slight lean seems to almost bring the bike out from under me during a corner unless I slow way down.

How far should the bike lean into a regular street corner?

There's no single answer to that. It depends on traction (model of tires, condition/age of tires, road surface, contaminants on road surface); your sight line through the turn (can you see all the way to the exit to where you'll be able to stand the bike back up without crossing the center line); camber/crown of the road; traffic conditions; wheelbase; bottom bracket height; and of course your own skills.

But a better handling bike will naturally need to lean less to go through the same turn at the same speed, and I think that's what you're addressing. It will also take less force to achieve the same lean.

I always had to slow WAY down to corner with my Cannondale Synapse. I now have a Cannondale SuperSix in the same size. The way these two bikes handle on corners is starkly different. I simply could not blast through a corner on that Synapse. The steering was mushy and numb on the Synapse...by contrast my SuperSix goes exactly where I want to go, without my really having to *think* about steering. Fast, slow...it's all good.

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Originally Posted by Muirenn

?!?!?! :D

Interesting...:)

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I liken it to comparing the steering on a midsize family sedan to the steering on my sportier hatchback. Hubby's car has softer suspension and less responsive steering. My car is all about the zoom-zoom (they're both Mazdas, but mine's the fun one)! :D

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

I always had to slow WAY down to corner with my Cannondale Synapse. I now have a Cannondale SuperSix in the same size. The way these two bikes handle on corners is starkly different. I simply could not blast through a corner on that Synapse. The steering was mushy and numb on the Synapse...by contrast my SuperSix goes exactly where I want to go, without my really having to *think* about steering. Fast, slow...it's all good.

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That's intriguing (as the owner of a Synapse). Comparing my old bike (an aluminum Felt f85) to the Synapse, I love how my Synapse corners. Could simply be the better fit and upgrade in wheels, but I may be "forced" to test a SuperSix now, just to know...

-pll (who also drives a Mazda) :D

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Originally Posted by pll

That's intriguing (as the owner of a Synapse). Comparing my old bike (an aluminum Felt f85) to the Synapse, I love how my Synapse corners. Could simply be the better fit and upgrade in wheels, but I may be "forced" to test a SuperSix now, just to know...

-pll (who also drives a Mazda) :D

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I've done a couple of rides on my Redline CX bike with the same tires from my SuperSix. Even that corners better than the Synapse, but not as well as the SuperSix. Stiffness/geometry-wise the Redline is right between the Cannondales. Redline and Synapse are both aluminum, SuperSix is carbon.

Keep in mind that different sizes of the same bike may handle differently. The headtube angle and rake of the fork could be different, among other attributes. Obviously, it could just be a difference in the subjective perceptions of the riders, too.

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

I've done a couple of rides on my Redline CX bike with the same tires from my SuperSix. Even that corners better than the Synapse, but not as well as the SuperSix. Stiffness/geometry-wise the Redline is right between the Cannondales. Redline and Synapse are both aluminum, SuperSix is carbon.

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I was confused by your mushy comments about the Synapse as well - I corner great on mine, much better than my old bike. But, my Synapse is all carbon with very upgraded wheels. I can easily take a corner at high speeds, if I choose. I see that yours was aluminum. I wonder if that's what the difference is.

What works for me is to lean away from the bike. If I'm turning right, I lean left (and it's not a subtle lean at all whatsoever). Someone taught me this technique for taking corners on steep hills so you can maintain speed without losing the bike under you. So far, so good.

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Originally Posted by westtexas

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What works for me is to lean away from the bike. If I'm turning right, I lean left (and it's not a subtle lean at all whatsoever). Someone taught me this technique for taking corners on steep hills so you can maintain speed without losing the bike under you. So far, so good.

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I lean with the bike.

http://tandemhearts.smugmug.com/Tria...-2011-04-M.jpg

25 mph though a 90 degree corner.

Veronica

I spoke to a Category 1 bike racer and we discussed cornering. As I newby I mentioned that I knew enough to keep the pedal in the "up" position on the same side as I was turning toward, so I wouldn't clip my pedal on the ground. He asked if I knew the more significant reason for that, and I said "No". He said that while the inside pedal is up, the outside pedal is down and the leg is straight. That straight leg is not relaxed, but the rider should put active, downward pressure on that leg to cause the wheels/tires to have grippier contact with the road so the bike does't slip out from beneath the rider going around sharp curves. He also mentioned keeping the body slightly more level and upright while the bike leans in the direction of the turn.

Veronica's picture is a demonstration of exactly what Velocivixen's post refers to. She is driving her weight through the outside leg, leaning into the corner, completely stable.

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Originally Posted by Velocivixen

I spoke to a Category 1 bike racer and we discussed cornering. As I newby I mentioned that I knew enough to keep the pedal in the "up" position on the same side as I was turning toward, so I wouldn't clip my pedal on the ground. He asked if I knew the more significant reason for that, and I said "No". He said that while the inside pedal is up, the outside pedal is down and the leg is straight. That straight leg is not relaxed, but the rider should put active, downward pressure on that leg to cause the wheels/tires to have grippier contact with the road so the bike does't slip out from beneath the rider going around sharp curves. He also mentioned keeping the body slightly more level and upright while the bike leans in the direction of the turn.

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Ok, so then this is what I do. I say lean left when turning right, but really, my body is upright. I also have the turning side leg in the up position. I thought about this alot on my ride this morning, and I actually looked at my speed around corners for the first time. I can easily do 20mph around a corner without feeling any slip.

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Originally Posted by westtexas

But, my Synapse is all carbon with very upgraded wheels.

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Ok, I'm officially curious. My wheels are the stock wheels and I'm thinking of gifting myself an upgrade in the coming spring. What did you upgrade to?

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

I always had to slow WAY down to corner with my Cannondale Synapse. I now have a Cannondale SuperSix in the same size. The way these two bikes handle on corners is starkly different. I simply could not blast through a corner on that Synapse. The steering was mushy and numb on the Synapse...by contrast my SuperSix goes exactly where I want to go, without my really having to *think* about steering. Fast, slow...it's all good.

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Are the wheels different on the two bikes? Wheel stiffness, or rather the lack thereof, can contribute to "mushy" handling.

The books I picked up are "Complete Book of Road Cycling Skills" and "New Cyclist Handbook". I figured I'd trying the cornering techniques and see what works and what doesn't on both my bikes, a mountain bike and my Madone by just going around the block over and over.

I was surpised that putting pressure on the outside pedal and using your hips to steer worked so well. I didn't try countersteering since I was just getting used to leaning a bike.

First time with the Madone gave me a heart attack as I hadn't expected the bike tires to feel like they were sliding out under me at 10 mph on the first corner. I have the original tires and have a little over a 100 miles on them.

Obviously the Madone vs. a mountain bike has totally different handling.

I think I've always had a fear of corners after I was riding with my dad on his motorcycle and he leaned too far taking a corner and we nearly crashed when I was a kid.

Veronica, the picture is beautiful and I love your bike.

Note items 3-5 in the descending skills clinic.

http://trainright.com/tdf-stage-17-d...iting-finale2/

Also I find it helps alot to point the inward knee away from the bike.

Go around a corner at your comfortable speed. As you ride more, your confidence will increase on your new bike and along with it your speed around a corner.

Straight leg on the outside, bear weight on it!
Inside hand bear weight on it! This helps with front wheel traction.

Keep your eye on where you want to go! You will naturally head in that direction.

With approaching fall, be very wary of leaves on the ground. Even if it looks dry! Don't ride over it go around it, if possible. Layer of wet leaves are like sheet of wet ice. NO TRACTION.

You know..if your tires are almost flat, you really can't ride a bike or turn corners. Sigh. No wonder nothing has been working right. I need to check the tire pressure more often. I was at a 10 and a 30 when I checked today.

With the tires at the right pressure I was flying around corners and handling hills much better. I still didn't get far today as I was working on technique, but it was SO much easier.

Other than nearly a head on collision with a truck it's been a great day. Probably scared the crap out of him and I feel terrible. I took the corner to wide and ended up in the left side of the road with the truck coming towards me. I was able to steer out of the left lane and out of the way but it was close. How do you apologize on your bike? Any universal hand gesture?

I really hate helmets and the reduced visibility of cycling especially when cornering. Add in that none of the street blocks don't have stop signs and you really are on your own for safety. I honestly feel safer on the highways than on neighborhood roads.

Bethany - There is no doubt in my mind that the motorcycle accident probably has a bit to do with it. Mostly though, it is getting used to that bike. I'm still wishing I could average 17 mph on the straight a ways. Go the speed you feel comfortable with, it it will get better.

Old, worn tires make it harder to corner, too.

I've never felt that a bike helmet affected my ability to see.

+1, if your helmet is restricting your vision there's something not right.

Also, on public roads, please don't tempt fate. It's fun to rail through corners and use the whole "racetrack," but it's not a racetrack. Any close is too close. We like you here...


(And I'm pretty sure that the rule is an uncontrolled intersection is automatically a four-way stop... Just because you don't have a stop sign, if cross traffic doesn't either, you're better off at least slowing until you're 100% sure there's no one coming.)

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Originally Posted by Hi Ho Silver

Are the wheels different on the two bikes? Wheel stiffness, or rather the lack thereof, can contribute to "mushy" handling.

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Ahhh...yes, they do have different wheels (Synapse had some lower-end Shimano wheels and the SS has Mavic Aksiums). Though I've talked to several people who have test-ridden both the Synapse and SuperSix with more comparable specs who have marveled at how relaxed and comfortable the Synapse was vs. the SuperSix and also noticed how differently they handled in fast corners. Mine are hard to compare, since they were spec'd out pretty differently ($1200 difference).

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Originally Posted by pll

Ok, I'm officially curious. My wheels are the stock wheels and I'm thinking of gifting myself an upgrade in the coming spring. What did you upgrade to?

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Well, I built the bike from scratch. I don't know what the stock wheels are, but most stock bikes come with pretty low end wheels (unless you're in the high end market I guess). I put Mavic Ksyrium Elites on my bike - it was a compromise from the Zipps the shop kept trying to sell me - and they are worth every penny.

@Bethany1, you poor thing. Yes, as you have found improper tire pressure affects ride and performance. Tubes can lose about 3 psi per day! That's typical. I rode today and adjusted the tire pressure prior to the ride. If I ride tomorrow I will check them again! I guarantee that I will need to "top them off" with air. I check my tires prior to every ride.

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Originally Posted by westtexas

Well, I built the bike from scratch. I don't know what the stock wheels are, but most stock bikes come with pretty low end wheels (unless you're in the high end market I guess). I put Mavic Ksyrium Elites on my bike - it was a compromise from the Zipps the shop kept trying to sell me - and they are worth every penny.

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Mine came with DT Swiss R-1700 wheels. Relative to what I had before, almost anything was an upgrade. I have been looking at the Ksyriums -- the folks at my bike shop like them. Hmm. More tempting than ever! I have to set a tough goal for the winter months, so that the wheelset will be my spring reward. <or should I get a pearl necklace instead?>

I'm always paranoid about the street intersections and take them carefully. I live in a quiet neighborhood where you only see cars about 5% of the time. It's that 5% that you have to watch out for as you don't know which street you'll see them.

I was taking the corners better than I ever have, but still wanted to be safe and see the cars. I just completely misjudged the cornering on that one. I wasn't going fast, just turned too wide. Left turns scare me because of the added vigilance needed to watch for cars.

My son fell over laughing when I asked him about my tires today and told him I hadn't checked the pressure since I purchased the bike except for the time I had a flat tire outside of town. I had no idea that the tires would lose air over time. That made him laugh even harder.

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Originally Posted by Bethany1

You know..if your tires are almost flat, you really can't ride a bike or turn corners. Sigh. No wonder nothing has been working right. I need to check the tire pressure more often. I was at a 10 and a 30 when I checked today.

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Wow! I'm amazed you made it around the corner at all!

Given that tire pressure, I'm surprised you made it around the corner at all!

I'm a big chicken when it comes to cornering--granted, I'm a big chicken all around. :D Outside pedal down, and I lean the bike, not me (though this depends on the corner). And I slow wayy down--like 8-12 mph if it's a tight corner (like the S-curve on a trail back home).

And +1 on the helmet. If it's restricting your vision, something's wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTunW-3uW24

I found this intriguing...

Okay, I didn't listen to the audio, but it seemed that the video did a pretty good job explaining the physics of cornering.

However... the rider in the graphic was dangerously close to the center line on both corner entry and corner exit.

That's how you'd do it in a closed course race. Not in the real world where oncoming traffic that you can't see on corner entry is ... at best, hugging the center line just as closely as the video depicts the rider doing ... at worst, well over the center line, as any of us know who've ever ridden or driven in hilly rural areas.

The fastest way around the corner just is not the safest way, not on a public roadway. Please. Be careful.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Okay, I didn't listen to the audio, but it seemed that the video did a pretty good job explaining the physics of cornering.

However... the rider in the graphic was dangerously close to the center line on both corner entry and corner exit.

That's how you'd do it in a closed course race. Not in the real world where oncoming traffic that you can't see on corner entry is ... at best, hugging the center line just as closely as the video depicts the rider doing ... at worst, well over the center line, as any of us know who've ever ridden or driven in hilly rural areas.

The fastest way around the corner just is not the safest way, not on a public roadway. Please. Be careful.

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+1

Consider that a speeding car driving in the opposite lane may invade your lane to clip the corner.

Ohh...I would like to see that chart too. My tires are 700x32 and max inflation is 95 psi. It doesn't give a range, so at 138 or so I like my tires at 80 psi. I think either Rivendell bike site has tire pressure range on it. I'll check & post it.

Here it is: http://www.rivbike.com/assets/full/0...ick_a_tire.pdf

Hope it's helpful.

See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html#pressure and the linked Bicycle Quarterly article.

Thanks for the websites. According to the rivbike site I need wider tires at 200-235 lbs. Mine are 23x700 and it recommends 28-32mm.

Any thoughts? And is that why I feel so unstable on my Madone? Wider tires feel safer but they don't feel fast.

If I go wider, any reccomendations on tires?

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Originally Posted by Owlie

(like the S-curve on a trail back home).

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I HATE that corner Owlie ;)

+++ 1 on the helmet... And the tire pressure. Check em often!

Shannon

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Originally Posted by Bethany1

Thanks for the websites. According to the rivbike site I need wider tires at 200-235 lbs. Mine are 23x700 and it recommends 28-32mm.

Any thoughts? And is that why I feel so unstable on my Madone? Wider tires feel safer but they don't feel fast.

If I go wider, any reccomendations on tires?

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Depends on whats the widest tire your bike will safely take. I tried running 28x700 tires, but my Ruby wouldn't take anything larger then a 25. Im about your size too, just run close @100-110 psi to prevent pinch flats.

I reinflate my tires before each ride, just to be on the safe side. I technically don't have to if I'm riding two days in a row. I'm about 136, my bike is probably around 25 pounds loaded, and I run my tires at about 105-10 for the back and slightly lower for the front. (My bike has 25s on it.)

I don't think most road bike brakes will take anything wider than 25s. And they won't take 25s comfortably (you have to deflate the tire most--if not all--of the way in order to get the wheel on and off). I don't have any recommendations--I'm still running the same tires that came with the bike (Kenda Kriteriums). Probably will go with something like a Continental Gatorskin...at least an all-weather tire so I won't be as worried about getting caught in the rain!