All Aluminum Isn't Created Equal

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08-28-2011, 07:32 PM
zoom-zoom

All Aluminum Isn't Created Equal

My carbon road bike is in the shop getting a new bottom bracket bearing, so today I rode my nearly new aluminum cyclocross bike (with road tires) 70 miles with friends.

Last night I was dreading this ride. I knew a fair amount would be on rough chipseal. My previous bike was an aluminum road frame (2010 Cannondale Synapse 5) with carbon fork, just like my CX frame.

So, imagine my surprise when I found this frame to dampen vibration nearly as well as my road bike. Huh? Color me surprised!

I told DH that if my first bike had been a Redline Conquest that I may not have even felt the need to upgrade right away. It's ~4#s heavier than my road bike, but it was still a pleasure to ride, even up some pretty steep hills (that's when the added weight and loss of wider-range road gearing would have been nice).
08-28-2011, 07:55 PM
Rebekah H

70 miles? Dude. You kick booty!
08-28-2011, 07:58 PM
zoom-zoom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebekah H

70 miles? Dude. You kick booty!

Heh, last Sat. I rode 147. Though today almost felt harder, since it was crazy hilly.

Trust me, keep riding and eventually 70 will be a NBD ride. :D
08-28-2011, 08:04 PM
Rebekah H

Showoff!! ;):D
08-28-2011, 08:08 PM
zoom-zoom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebekah H

Showoff!! ;):D

Nah. Friends of mine did the same 147 mile ride...then the next day turned-around and rode back...with a headwind. They're just crazy gluttons for punishment!
08-28-2011, 08:13 PM
Owlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

My carbon road bike is in the shop getting a new bottom bracket bearing, so today I rode my nearly new aluminum cyclocross bike (with road tires) 70 miles with friends.

Last night I was dreading this ride. I knew a fair amount would be on rough chipseal. My previous bike was an aluminum road frame (2010 Cannondale Synapse 5) with carbon fork, just like my CX frame.

So, imagine my surprise when I found this frame to dampen vibration nearly as well as my road bike. Huh? Color me surprised!

I told DH that if my first bike had been a Redline Conquest that I may not have even felt the need to upgrade right away. It's ~4#s heavier than my road bike, but it was still a pleasure to ride, even up some pretty steep hills (that's when the added weight and loss of wider-range road gearing would have been nice).

That's awesome. And 70 miles...meep! (Read in a sort of Beaker-type voice)
Entry-level aluminum frames seem to be pretty crappy--DBF said the difference between his old OCR3 and his Cannondale was dramatic, and his Cannondale is at least six years old at this point. Or is it just that relaxed-geometry aluminum frames tend to have crappy ride qualities? I seem to remember DBF saying that at the time he had his OCR, Giant used the same frame through the entire aluminum line. (Does Redline do the same thing?) I'd love to hear someone knowledgeable on the subject's input.

(So I'm not crazy for considering aluminum for my next bike, right? ;) )
08-28-2011, 08:28 PM
zoom-zoom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owlie

That's awesome. And 70 miles...meep! (Read in a sort of Beaker-type voice)
Entry-level aluminum frames seem to be pretty crappy--DBF said the difference between his old OCR3 and his Cannondale was dramatic, and his Cannondale is at least six years old at this point. Or is it just that relaxed-geometry aluminum frames tend to have crappy ride qualities? I seem to remember DBF saying that at the time he had his OCR, Giant used the same frame through the entire aluminum line. (Does Redline do the same thing?) I'd love to hear someone knowledgeable on the subject's input.

(So I'm not crazy for considering aluminum for my next bike, right? ;) )

I'm not sure if Redline does or not...I think they might, though. Price point on the Redline and Synapse were about the same, though. The Conquest actually has lower end components (came stock with a mix of Sora/Tiagra, which we had swapped for SRAM Apex, since I have Rival on my roadie). My Synapse was 105. Both with carbon forks. So maybe it's related to the quality of the forks or the carbon used...?

You might be right about the geometry, too, since the Synapse was quite relaxed and sorta mushy. The Conquest feels a lot stiffer and more responsive.
08-28-2011, 08:30 PM
zoom-zoom

Oh, and you are totally not crazy to consider aluminum. And I definitely would check out the Redline Conquest bikes. I love that I have the option to use it for CX or road or even for some touring, since it has mounting points for panniers and racks and stuff.
08-29-2011, 11:05 AM
GLC1968

My husband's most comfy ride (and he's had too many bikes to count) came from an aluminum Specialized TriCross. It actually rode smoother than his two TI bikes, multiple carbon bikes and a couple of steel ones on chipseal. And yes, geometry makes a HUGE difference. My Tri bike is carbon and it beats the crap out of me on rough road because it's designed to be stiff and fast. Frame material is only a part of the equation - wheels, tires, inflation, geometry, fit, etc....they all make a difference in how well a bike handles rough roads.
08-29-2011, 11:43 AM
redrhodie

My nicest bike is Al. It is very comfy. I always wondered if the Al bashers had ridden nice Al. I bet not.
08-29-2011, 12:25 PM
zoom-zoom

Quote:

Originally Posted by redrhodie

My nicest bike is Al. It is very comfy. I always wondered if the Al bashers had ridden nice Al. I bet not.

That's the really odd thing...everyone says "oh, Cannondale...alum. is their specialty!" But my experience with an aluminum Cannondale was pretty iffy, even with a carbon fork and relaxed geometry, which I would have thought would have dampened the buzz a lot more. When I wanted more aggressive geometry I didn't even look at a CAAD frame, since I figured that would be even MORE uncomfortable--instead I went for the SuperSix, which has the same geo, but in carbon.

Perhaps that CAAD would have been just as comfy (and cheaper), but there was no way to know, since no one stocks the men's version in a little 48.
08-29-2011, 12:29 PM
rubysoho

Question: How do you know a bike is made with the good aluminum? I have been hesitating on the Specialized Tricross with disk brakes (2012 model) because it is aluminum. And I can't test ride it on a really long ride to see if I will like it as much as my Ruby Elite (carbon).
08-29-2011, 12:33 PM
zoom-zoom

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubysoho

Question: How do you know a bike is made with the good aluminum? I have been hesitating on the Specialized Tricross with disk brakes (2012 model) because it is aluminum. And I can't test ride it on a really long ride to see if I will like it as much as my Ruby Elite (carbon).

That's the million dollar question. I always assumed that my Cannondale was about the "best" aluminum available. Now I don't know.
08-29-2011, 01:02 PM
GLC1968

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubysoho

Question: How do you know a bike is made with the good aluminum? I have been hesitating on the Specialized Tricross with disk brakes (2012 model) because it is aluminum. And I can't test ride it on a really long ride to see if I will like it as much as my Ruby Elite (carbon).

If you see my post above - my husband LOVED his TriCross, despite the aluminum! He actually owned 3 different tricrosses at one point (for other reasons) but felt they all had a ride that felt as smooth as his carbon Roubaix.
08-29-2011, 03:26 PM
Hi Ho Silver

A bike's material is only a part of the comfort equation - how the material is formed (i.e., tube shape, diameter, wall thickness) and how it is used (i.e., frame and fork angles) play a significant part in the equation. Perhaps just as importantly, the tires and PSI play a huge part in comfort.

Although lots of people quote the familiar slogan "steel is real", I haven't found that to be the case. My first MTB was made from steel, including the bullmoose handlebar/stem combo. The high level of road and trail buzz transmitted by that bike caused my hands and shoulders to throb ...until I ditched the steel handlebars/stem combo and installed an aluminum stem and handlebar. That made all the difference in the world as far as comfort.

At one time, I had both a steel Raleigh MTB and a Klein aluminum MTB (reputed to be one of the stiffest MTB's back then). The Klein didn't beat me up on trails and/or roads as much as the steel bike did.

I currently have a steel road bike (1997 DiamondBack) with very relaxed angles, and a carbon fiber bike (2011 Specialized Ruby Elite) with steeper angles. The carbon fiber bike rides like a Rolls Royce, even on recently laid chip-seal roads, whereas the steel bike is buzzy and harsh enough that I tire after 30 miles on rough roads.
08-30-2011, 04:55 AM
Catrin

Interesting discussion, but it makes sense to me that it goes down to the quality of the materials regardless of frame composition. My Gunnar is a full custom, and they have their own custom lightweight steel tubing they use for both Waterford and Gunnar builds (they use two basic types). The ride is very smooth and cushy - the only bike I've ridden that is more comfortable is my fill suspension mountain bike!

My LHT is less comfortable, though far better than my Trek 7.6 was. The steel tubing is much heavier and indeed the smaller LHT sizes could be said to be over-built. Nice ride, but not as sweet as my Gunnar - and I am specifically referring to road vibration/dampening, NOT handling. The Gunnar wins in that department as well but that is another topic.
08-30-2011, 05:29 AM
rubysoho

Quote:

Originally Posted by GLC1968

If you see my post above - my husband LOVED his TriCross, despite the aluminum! He actually owned 3 different tricrosses at one point (for other reasons) but felt they all had a ride that felt as smooth as his carbon Roubaix.

Thank you! I missed your post in my haste.
08-30-2011, 08:24 AM
Caddy

Hrm... I've had the opposite experience and so has my spouse - we both went bicycle shopping the last three weeks.

I hated, hated the Tricross. I felt everything on the road and acceleration was difficult. The Giant TCX W was a lot more comfortable, but unfortunately a tad too large.

My husband tested about 15 different bicycles, including the Tricross, and concluded that the Cannondale Synapse felt the most comfortable (Jamis Ventura was the second closest and the Caad9 was third). Granted, there is no Redline Conquest near us in his size, so perhaps that's even plushier, but now I'm confused about the differing opinions!
08-30-2011, 08:54 AM
zoom-zoom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caddy

Hrm... I've had the opposite experience and so has my spouse - we both went bicycle shopping the last three weeks.

I hated, hated the Tricross. I felt everything on the road and acceleration was difficult. The Giant TCX W was a lot more comfortable, but unfortunately a tad too large.

My husband tested about 15 different bicycles, including the Tricross, and concluded that the Cannondale Synapse felt the most comfortable (Jamis Ventura was the second closest and the Caad9 was third). Granted, there is no Redline Conquest near us in his size, so perhaps that's even plushier, but now I'm confused about the differing opinions!

Oh, now this is weird! Perhaps the size of the frame is a factor...? My Synapse was a 48 WSD and my Redline is a 44.
08-30-2011, 09:07 AM
Catrin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caddy

Hrm... I've had the opposite experience and so has my spouse - we both went bicycle shopping the last three weeks....Granted, there is no Redline Conquest near us in his size, so perhaps that's even plushier, but now I'm confused about the differing opinions!

Some of us are more susceptible to road vibration than others and I think this just makes a difference. I have learned in the almost 2 years since I started riding that at least part of what is related to comfort on a bike is subjective. What makes a dream ride for one person is torture device for another...

So this just means we need to get out there and test ride as much as we can ;)
08-30-2011, 09:57 AM
Caddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catrin

So this just means we need to get out there and test ride as much as we can ;)

Very true :) I also ride 44-48cm bikes. Unfortunately, most places don't have the bikes to test ride in those sizes.

My husband test rode 54-56cm bikes, though, and made sure to go through potholes with each, so maybe that counts for the difference.

As they say, a good aluminum frame is better than a low-end carbon frame.
08-30-2011, 10:47 AM
Catrin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caddy

Very true :) I also ride 44-48cm bikes. Unfortunately, most places don't have the bikes to test ride in those sizes.

My husband test rode 54-56cm bikes, though, and made sure to go through potholes with each, so maybe that counts for the difference.

As they say, a good aluminum frame is better than a low-end carbon frame.

I hear you, I ride the same range of sizes. If I didn't need such a blasted short reach I could take a 52cm frame :rolleyes: Test riding is still preferable, but it also helps to have a fitter you really trust and who knows his or her stuff.

That being said, learning that Jamis made a hardtail in a "larger" size that had the same dimensions as the "smaller" FS bike I wanted did make it possible to test ride something that was close enough to the real thing. Sometimes we must be creative ;)
08-30-2011, 10:57 AM
Hi Ho Silver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catrin

What makes a dream ride for one person is torture device for another...

So this just means we need to get out there and test ride as much as we can ;)

I think some of the comfort issue, as far as vibration goes, is also a function of rider position (stretched out versus more upright) and pedalling style (spinning with full weight on saddle versus mashing and partially unweighting off the saddle).
08-30-2011, 11:19 AM
zoom-zoom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi Ho Silver

I think some of the comfort issue, as far as vibration goes, is also a function of rider position (stretched out versus more upright) and pedalling style (spinning with full weight on saddle versus mashing and partially unweighting off the saddle).

That's interesting...I'm generally a relatively aggressive-positioned spinner. I wonder what this means in terms of vibration sensitivity. I was maybe a hair more upright on my aluminum Synapse, relative to my Redline.
08-30-2011, 05:47 PM
Hi Ho Silver

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

That's interesting...I'm generally a relatively aggressive-positioned spinner. I wonder what this means in terms of vibration sensitivity. I was maybe a hair more upright on my aluminum Synapse, relative to my Redline.

My conjecture is based on my limited experience:

When I lived in Houston and Florida, which are both relatively flat, I was predominantly a spinner (a consistent 88 RPM). Because I was only applying medium to low force on the pedals, my butt was fully weighted on the saddle and all the vibration was ultimately transmitted to my butt and girly bits through the saddle. After riding a while, my pain threshold would be reached and the butt/bits would become even more sensitive to subsequent vibration. Here in Austin, I’ve had to change my style to make it up the long and never-ending hills. Now that I’m mashing the pedals almost constantly with near maximum force, my butt is noticeably unweighted from the saddle with each pedal stroke and I’m not even aware of the saddle and the vibration/jolts transmitted to it.

Position-wise, on my old road bike I was really stretched out and my upper body muscles (shoulders, arms) were always working to help support my torso. The vibrations would cause those already-tense muscles to involuntarily react, with the result that after a while they’d get fatigued and become even more sensitive to subsequent vibration. My new road bike has a shorter top tube so I’m not as stretched out. My core muscles provide most of the torso support, and because my upper body muscles do not have to work quite so hard, they can endure a lot more vibration. The result is that I have yet to experience any upper body discomfort on my new bike from vibration and jolts.