fishtailing while swimming?

My last couple of swims have been more like struggles...the breathing has been off, my heart rate is elevated after just a lap or two, and I generally feel "off". :mad:

Last night, a woman commented to me that I am "fishtailing" while I swim. She said that I should focus on "stretching out" in the water and spearing the gliding arm forward, and that this will help coordinate my hip motion with my shoulders, improving body roll. It seemed to help when I tried it.... (I'm really glad that she said something to me....I need all of the help that I can get, and that includes observations of the things that I'm not sensing on my own.)

Does this make sense? What causes fishtailing, and what can I do to work at it? I really need to have a good swim soon in order to keep my motivation up!

Thanks in advance!

What's your kick like? I was told that your kick also helps control the fishtailing. Of course, that could have something with getting the shoulders and hips coordinated, as you were told (since my kick is totally non-propulsive).

Recently, I've started kicking more, as I get better at feeling the rhthym of swimming. It's not terribly propulsive, and I don't think I'm scissor kicking. (Of course, I didn't think that I was fishtailing either :o) Strangely enough, my breathing was better when I was kicking less...

Does the kick drives the hip motion and body roll, or is the body roll starting the kick? This whole body unification thing is clearly an area that I need to focus on....once I figure out how...

It's my understanding that the kick drives the roll, so even with a non-propulsive kick it's important to have a kick anyway.

> Strangely enough, my breathing was better when I was kicking less...

What do you mean by "better"? Unfortunately, kicking uses your legs muscles and they will need oxygen, requiring more/better breathing. That's why it's important to find a good balance between kicking enough to drive your roll and not kicking too much. A championship swimmer still only gets about 10% of their propulsion from their kick.

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Originally Posted by HillSlugger

What do you mean by "better"? Unfortunately, kicking uses your legs muscles and they will need oxygen, requiring more/better breathing. That's why it's important to find a good balance between kicking enough to drive your roll and not kicking too much. A championship swimmer still only gets about 10% of their propulsion from their kick.

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I mean that I had an easier time finding the right spot to breath and the breathing rhthym.

I definitely get the connection between big leg muscles and needing more air, so I'm trying to find that "sweet spot" with kicking. I'm thinking that I need to kick a little less, and go back to focusing on breath. It's almost like I forget to think about breathing when I focus on other areas of my form (or lack thereof!).

Thanks for the discussion...it's giving me good stuff to think about.

It is SO easy to forget one thing while working on another! :p

I've heard it said that it takes something like 10,000 strokes for a stroke change to become ingrained, so you have to expect to flounder a bit while you are working on something new.

Make sure to work on ONLY ONE thing at a time.

One thing I've found helpful to control "snaking" is to make sure my feet stay close to each other while kicking (big toes tap each other). Make sure your head isn't too far out of the water or your legs will sink, and you will instinctively kick more to keep your lower body up. Using those TYR EBP fins have done wonders w/correcting my body position in the water.

Agree w/HillSlugger---focus on one thing at a time.

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Originally Posted by Selkie

One thing I've found helpful to control "snaking" is to make sure my feet stay close to each other while kicking (big toes tap each other). Make sure your head isn't too far out of the water or your legs will sink, and you will instinctively kick more to keep your lower body up. Using those TYR EBP fins have done wonders w/correcting my body position in the water.

Agree w/HillSlugger---focus on one thing at a time.

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Thanks for the ideas! I've looked at those EBP fins (a lot!), but I feel somewhat self-conscious about them (and fins in general). Heck, my lap counter makes me self-conscious, given how slow and short my swims are :o

When you say "tap big toes", do you mean that they sort of brush past each other? Trying to picture this....

My swim coach actually has me to some sets with using a small resistance band around my ankles. This forces me to keep my legs closer together and I have been seeing some improvement that my kick seems more streamlined.

As someone else mentioned there really isn't much propulsion even in the best swimmers on the kick the key is reducing the drag I think.

I have a story that might be a little inspiration to you right now. After several summers of swim lessons as a kid, I barely made it though the final test. About a decade ago, after watching my daughter during her swim lessons, I took a few lessons and after that I could at least swim laps. I still felt pretty slow and awkward and I avoided swimming laps at crowded pools because no way could I share a lane, I'd be in everyone's way. But I had the ability to swim laps which I couldn't do before.

This summer, with some help from the Mr. Smooth website, and my daughter giving me some coaching, and I forced myself to learn flip turns by doing them over and over and over, coming up choking EVERY SINGLE TIME, for weeks, I've improved a lot.

Still I was completely taken aback this weekend.
"I see Trintje at the pool sometimes," I mentioned to a friend.
"I know, she says you're an amazing swimmer."
But I'm slow! I'm not trained, I've just cobbled it together! How can anyone consider me an "amazing swimmer"??

Trintje is learning to swim, so maybe she's easily impressed. But it blows my mind, because it wasn't that long ago that I was about as good a swimmer as she is. Some place in there I became one of those real swimmers that intimidated me so much.

As far as your current problem, practice with a slow deliberate stroke. Swimming is so complicated, so many things to keep track of all that once, it's like juggling. Practice it at a slow speed and little by little you can speed it up. My daughter has me the "Catch up drill": both arms in front of you, take an entire stroke with your right hand until your right hand is in front of you again, then take an entire stroke with your left hand.

The other thing I'd suggest is look at the kick on Mr. Smooth. That made an enormous difference for me. It turns out you kick with a straight leg almost, not a splashy kick with your knee. The kick is a tiny one. Uses lots less energy.

Thanks, everyone! This has been a really helpful discussion, and I'm looking forward to getting back in the pool this weekend.

Mel: Swimming is like juggling- what a great analogy!

My current plan is to work more on my fore/aft balance, and on engaging my core to promote shoulder-hip unification. That should be more than enough to think about for now!

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Originally Posted by Becky

Thanks for the ideas! I've looked at those EBP fins (a lot!), but I feel somewhat self-conscious about them (and fins in general). Heck, my lap counter makes me self-conscious, given how slow and short my swims are :o

When you say "tap big toes", do you mean that they sort of brush past each other? Trying to picture this....

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Yes, brushing past each other works.

Don't feel self conscious. I've found the pool, for the most part, to be the "no judgement zone," half-dressed people of all sizes/shapes/abilities who are focused primarily on getting their workouts in (or enjoying themselves).

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Originally Posted by Selkie

Don't feel self conscious. I've found the pool, for the most part, to be the "no judgement zone," half-dressed people of all sizes/shapes/abilities who are focused primarily on getting their workouts in (or enjoying themselves).

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I think this is SO true and it really amazed me at first. I think a big part of it (from my perception anyway) is that unlike at running or cycling events, in the pool, you absolutely cannot tell who is good and who is bad by what they look like. Good and bad swimmers come in all manner of shapes and sizes and I think that really takes away from the typical judgemental state that humans tend to sink into in athletic situations.

I find it incredibly comforting, actually! But that's just my own insecurities talking...;)

That's a very good point...there's definitely less "checking out" going on at the pool, compared to the fitness machines.

This is going to sound sooo silly, but much of my self-consciousness stems from the fact that I usually have to share the pool with the swim team kids. Nothing like being out-swum by 8-year olds to do a number on your self-confidence...and yes, I'm fully aware that they and their coaches don't give a darn about me. Combine that with the fact that I couldn't swim well enough to be a swim team kid when I was that age and all of my classmates did....

Maybe it's time to get over myself.

I don't know how old you are, Becky, but I think of it this way: How many women your age are even in the pool swimming laps? Be proud of your accomplishments. Look back at where you were a year ago and see how much progress you have made. I bet it's a lot.

As far as fishtailing goes, we videotaped ourselves in the pool Saturday morning and what we saw was amazing. I snake through the water in a zig-zag. Would it have anything to do with only breathing on one side? I did bilateral breathing drills this morning and really concentrated on swimming straight. Does anyone know if that makes a difference?

Bike Chick, you're absolutely right. I need to remember that I could be parked on the couch, watching Law and Order reruns, and instead I'm working hard and getting stronger. (Thanks for the kick in the butt :) )

I'm pleased to say that I had 2 good swims this weekend. I really focused on spearing the extended hand forward, pulling my shoulders back, and keeping my core engaged. I don't know if I looked any better, but I certainly felt better, faster, and more comfortable.

I think that bilateral breathing would definitely help. This article explains it far better than I can.