More shifting/hill questions

So I'm getting much more comfortable with my bike, but I'm still making mistakes when shifting up an incline. I'm not getting up some areas that I think I should be able to because I shift up instead of down or don't shift down enough :P

My main question is, should I shift down on the front or rear first? My bike has 7 in the back. So it seems like if I'm riding along a flat in 3/3 for instance, that I would want to shift in the front first to make the biggest difference so it will be 2/3. Is that right?

It depends... How much of a reduction in gearing do you need for a certain incline? How much momentum do you have going into the climb? Do you like to spin or to mash?

For a steep or long hill that's going to require some work, I might stay in the harder gear as long as possible, and then shift down the front first . For a short hill where I've got a lot of momentum, I might only shift once or twice in the rear and power over the top.

Unfortunately, there's no magic formula. Listen to your legs and lungs....let them tell you how much easier they need it to be.

The scientist in me likes to experiment with things like this, and understand how they work for me. I think I would find a practice hill nearby, one that isn't crazy hard or very easy. I'd practice riding that hill over and over, in all sorts of gear combinations, and see what happens when shifting just the front, just the rear, combinations of both, and in different orders.

Have fun, and good luck!

Thanks Becky, I guess that answers why I couldn't find much on the web about it. Too many variable. :) I think finding a hill to practice on is a great idea. I happen to live on a few! Sometimes I am extra dumb :cool::rolleyes:

Oh so if I'm starting from a stand still at the bottom of a hill (lots of cars, need to stop so I can look both ways) I assume I'll need to be in my lower gears already? So turn the crank with one foot to shift down before I take off?

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Originally Posted by schnitzle

Oh so if I'm starting from a stand still at the bottom of a hill (lots of cars, need to stop so I can look both ways) I assume I'll need to be in my lower gears already? So turn the crank with one foot to shift down before I take off?

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You should be in a low-ish gear, but you don't want to be geared so low that you can't get any momentum to help you balance as you start out. (I under-gear all the time on my mountain bike- it's not pretty :o)

There's a stop sign at the top of a steep short hill on my commute home. I'll often shift to a harder gear as I approach it, just so that I'll have some "kick" and balance when I start pedalling again.

If I'm approaching a stop sign, and I know I'll have to climb immediately after it, I'll shift to the "right" gear as I come to a stop. That way, I can take off when traffic is clear without juggling my bike.

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Originally Posted by Becky

You should be in a low-ish gear, but you don't want to be geared so low that you can't get any momentum to help you balance as you start out. (I under-gear all the time on my mountain bike- it's not pretty :o)

There's a stop sign at the top of a steep short hill on my commute home. I'll often shift to a harder gear as I approach it, just so that I'll have some "kick" and balance when I start pedalling again.

If I'm approaching a stop sign, and I know I'll have to climb immediately after it, I'll shift to the "right" gear as I come to a stop. That way, I can take off when traffic is clear without juggling my bike.

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Awesome, thanks again!!

a guy who used to race told me that under a load, it's easier to go from your bigger chain rings down than it is to shift the gears in the back on the cassette.
So I'd suggest you stay in your middle chain ring until you need to shift then drop into the lowest chainring... hopefully you'll still have a couple more gears in the back when you do this in case it gets even steeper.

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Originally Posted by Biciclista

So I'd suggest you stay in your middle chain ring until you need to shift then drop into the lowest chainring... hopefully you'll still have a couple more gears in the back when you do this in case it gets even steeper.

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I just recently started doing it this way and I find it is helping me a lot actually.

That makes sense, thanks Biciclista and Possegal :D

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Originally Posted by Biciclista

a guy who used to race told me that under a load, it's easier to go from your bigger chain rings down than it is to shift the gears in the back on the cassette.
So I'd suggest you stay in your middle chain ring until you need to shift then drop into the lowest chainring... hopefully you'll still have a couple more gears in the back when you do this in case it gets even steeper.

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I stay in my middle chain ring up front so as to keep up my cadence. I start to gear down in the back when my cadence falls below 70. For cyclists with faster cadence than I have, they gear down when their cadence falls below 80. If the grade gets real steep over 11%, or if it is a long climb of more than a mile and I need to conserve energy, I may ease up on my chain a bit, then shift into the granny in the front. If I have prior knowledge that I am facing a hill with a grade that is excessively steep, like over 13%, I will shift down to my granny in the front and the lowest in the back at the bottom of the climb so that I won't have to worry about dropping my chain halfway up the climb. If I didn't have prior knowledge, and find myself on a hill where halfway up it turns to a 16-17% grade, well the grade is too steep to get slack to shift into the granny, so I stay in my middle chain ring and start praying. I got up some real steep hills in my middle chain ring this year, which suprised me considerably, and even more satisfying, I passed male cyclists who dropped their chains.

I don't have a cadence :p har har! Ok obviously not true, but I need a cyclometer because I'm usually too distracted to count and too busy just keeping going. That's awesome that you're getting up hills in your middle chain ring Darcy!! When you said that the guys dropped their chains, do you mean they fell off because of the way the were shifting or?? Man that must feel good to pass those guys :)

At this point I'd rather spin than mash. I'm too out of shape to mash, plus I want to be nice to my knees.

So I kept everyone's comments in mind this evening when we rode through Kenmore. Last time I didn't make it up the intersection underpasses because of shifting mistakes and general tiredness. This time I got up all 4 of them (2 out and 2 back) plus most of a hill from the Sam-river trail to the B-G. I did make some dumb mistake there and had to walk the last few feet to the top of the hill. Definitely an improvement for me though, so thanks!! In the underpasses I really tried to remember to shift up going into the downhill so I would have extra power to get up the other side. Considering I'm hauling 250lbs I felt pretty pleased with myself :D

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Originally Posted by schnitzle

I don't have a cadence :p har har! Ok obviously not true, but I need a cyclometer because I'm usually too distracted to count and too busy just keeping going. That's awesome that you're getting up hills in your middle chain ring Darcy!! When you said that the guys dropped their chains, do you mean they fell off because of the way the were shifting or?? Man that must feel good to pass those guys :)

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Some male cyclists tend to cycle all of the time in the biggest chain ring on the front because they are mashers with a low spin. They use their strong leg muscles to power their way up hills, and some take immense pride that they bike only in their very highest gear and never shift at all, whether flats, rollers or hills. Then ... they go up a hill with a grade steeper than normal for them, like 13% to 18%, they go oops, they try to shift down in front, but there isn't enough slack in their chain, and the chain comes off. They put the chain back on, but there they are, on a grade that is too steep for them to get started back on the bike, and they are walking up the hill. They look like newbies, but nope, they are experienced cyclists, just ones with a different pedaling technique who got caught in too high of a gear on a grade steeper than they expected. Or when I pass them and they are still pedaling, it is because they are still in their highest chain ring in front and trying real hard not to tip over, afraid that if they shift down a chain ring they will drop a chain.

Schnitzle, you are still in the stage where you are gaining fitness and muscle power. Don't worry about cadence and all of that right now. Just get into your lowest gear at the bottom of a hill and go up until you reach the top. The grades in the Northwest can get real steep, so if you have to get off and walk, it is no biggie, just blame it on how they build roads around here. You burn calories walking your bike up a hill too. The underpass you described, where you go under a road, so down and then up, shift up like you mentioned and accelerate down the road and continue to accelerate up the next side coming out of the underpass, and don't start to shift down until you feel yourself losing speed. For an overpass, in the Northwest the grades of an overpass typically range from 4% to 8%, with 4% being mild and 8% being the steepest. When you encounter a hill that is steeper than the steepest of the overpasses, then you know the grade of the hill is over 8%.

I have to agree with Darcy re changing from big to small chainring at the front.
Changing under load will most likely cause your chain to fall off. It's better too change the front one earlier and shift your rear gears harder to compensate. This is especially if a steep hill is coming up.

Regarding cadence, I am a slow one, only averaging around 70. Both DH and I have big leg muscles and whenever I spin very fast I start to bounce in the saddle and feel like I am going to fall off.

I think everyone is different and it depends on how you are built. If you are tall and lean, your muscles might be better going at a high cadence, but if you are built for strength, then a slower cadence is right for you. It does take a while to figure out what works for you especially as you lose weight and gain fitness.

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Stoker

whenever I spin very fast I start to bounce in the saddle and feel like I am going to fall off.

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/partial hijack

That's technique, not nature. If you're pedaling in squares at 120 rpm, you're still pedaling in squares at 70 rpm, it's just not as noticeable because the bouncing isn't as frequent and you can correct it with your other side. Even if your preferred natural cadence is low, high cadence drills (and one legged drills) are super valuable for smoothing out your pedal stroke and making you more efficient at any cadence.

As I understand it, the only way to know your true natural cadence is through time trialing. Now, this assumes an efficient pedal stroke, so you've got to work on pedaling in circles first. But once you have a good pedal stroke...

Mark yourself out a five-mile course and give it everything you've got. Record your time, speed, heart rate and cadence, but DON'T watch them during your TT. Just ride at the highest perceived exertion that you can maintain for the whole five miles.

Then give yourself a few days' recovery and do the same course, but this time watch your cadence monitor and make yourself spin 5 rpm higher than what you did the first time. Still give it everything you've got. Compare your speed and heart rate to your first trial. Faster? Slower? Higher or lower HR?

If you're less efficient on the second trial, try a third trial but this time pedal 5 rpm slower than you did the first time. If you're more efficient on the second trial, do your third trial 5 rpm faster than you did the second time . Repeat the process until you've found your most efficient cadence.

Size of muscles doesn't have anything to do with it - it's the composition of your muscle fibers. (Actually, I really have no idea about this latter, but I guess I had the impression that muscle hypertrophy was mainly fast-twitch fibers, since you develop large muscles by working under resistance and developing power, whereas long endurance and slow-twitch fiber work tends to develop long, lean muscles).


/hijack


Anyway, to the OP, I think you've gotten some good advice, and you could also take a look at some of the threads that Catrin has started on the same topic. It's really a matter of experience. You learn your leg strength and when the amount of pressure you're putting on the pedals is too high or too low for you; you learn your ideal cadence; you learn to read hills and anticipate the shifts. You'll get there! :)

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Originally Posted by DarcyInOregon

Some male cyclists tend to cycle all of the time in the biggest chain ring on the front because they are mashers with a low spin. They use their strong leg muscles to power their way up hills, and some take immense pride that they bike only in their very highest gear and never shift at all, whether flats, rollers or hills. Then ... they go up a hill with a grade steeper than normal for them, like 13% to 18%, they go oops, they try to shift down in front, but there isn't enough slack in their chain, and the chain comes off. They put the chain back on, but there they are, on a grade that is too steep for them to get started back on the bike, and they are walking up the hill. They look like newbies, but nope, they are experienced cyclists, just ones with a different pedaling technique who got caught in too high of a gear on a grade steeper than they expected. Or when I pass them and they are still pedaling, it is because they are still in their highest chain ring in front and trying real hard not to tip over, afraid that if they shift down a chain ring they will drop a chain.

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Ah ok their chains really fall off! That's what I figured but wasn't sure. Sounds like a 1 speed might be better for those guys!

Thanks for the great advice. I'm definitely not worried about having to walk, it's all about building strength right? There will always be a next time when I might make it up and over!

I like your spriit schnitzle!! I'm in the same place as you. Went from riding my mtb on paved to jumping in and buying a rb. So now I'm learning the "how to's" of rb riding. And shifting is still new to me as well. loved all the posts. I'm going to try the middle ring thing first. That was my thought last time out. If it's in the middle, I can move either way more easily.

The hills I'm on don't require the smallest wheel yet, but those are coming as my skills increases, so I'm remember those tips too.

One it about climbing I read that really helps me when I'm in the middle of it all is this "find a gear you can climb all day in". That's my default when I don't know the route and my ability to handle the climb. I'm finding that the gear I can climb all in day changes as does my fitness level, confidence and time on the road increases.

I love this website!!! I ride alone and don't have folks to bounce my questions around. :)

Hey thanks ChillyWilly :) Welcome to TE! I love it here and know you will too!

Yeah I think the middle ring worked well for me last time I rode. I like your idea of finding a gear you can ride in all day. I'll have to get more practice and find that gear :D

I read about your mtb experience on the 40 and up thread (I'm in that group to) and am very impressed. Congrats on your first road bike too!