I have been taking a Glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate msm supplement for years. I though I would wean myself off it, but I am having pain again. The doctors are skeptical about it actually working, what do y'all think?
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I have been taking a Glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate msm supplement for years. I though I would wean myself off it, but I am having pain again. The doctors are skeptical about it actually working, what do y'all think?
There's been several recent articles about this; in effect, it doesn't work.
Sorry, I can't remember where I read this, or the citation.
Off the top of my head, I think the only studies that have been done on whether it rebuilds cartilage have concluded that it does rebuild knee cartilage. Studies on other joints have been equivocal or have concluded that it's ineffective.
ETA: here's a summary of one... http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/471971
here's another... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11214126
Joint space and the condition of cartilage correlate poorly with pain, so it's no surprise that results have been mixed on whether glucosamine relieves pain. (The most recent article was in the NYT this week, but it focused on back pain, which has very little relation to cartilage in any case.) But I think that anything that protects your joints is good, whether or not it helps with pain.
I've tried other things (MSM, SAM-e) that have not worked for me, so I doubt it's a placebo effect. (FWIW, SAM-e also drove my blood pressure sky high, but my blood pressure is pretty sensitive to all kinds of things.)
Also, my dog had excellent results in her mobility and manifestations of pain from Adequan (which is an injectable similar to glucosamine), but little if any effect from oral glucosamine. I don't know why there's no injectable for humans, but I doubt the dog was getting a placebo effect (especially considering the shots were IM and not very comfortable for her).
I've also seen scientific evidence that it doesn't work - though I used to give it to my old arthritic cat and it did seem to help him. When he was getting it he would be able jump up onto the couch, when he wasn't he never did..... (and he certainly wasn't subject to the placebo effect... though I suppose I could have been on his behalf....)
My doc was of the position that it works for some people, try a bottle of 30-days worth, if you feel a difference, continue, if you don't, then stop and don't waste your money. Some people have said it takes 60-days. And just because it works for horses doesn't mean it'll work on humans.
I think it has finally been proven to be ineffective.
I had re-constructive knee surgery 10 years ago. I find that glucosamine does seem to help my knee. I definitely notice the difference when I don't use it. That is all the proof I need. I doesn't seem to do a thing for arthritis pain or shoulder pain but helps with the stiffness in my bad knee
Here's one article I had bookmarked (it's from 2006). Not very encouraging.
ETA: Oops, I bookmarked page 2 for some reason. Start article here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/23/he...ewanted=1&_r=1
I have used it with dogs and it did seem to work. As others pointed out, there's no placebo effect with dogs.
Can't speak for myself, but it has done and continues to do wonders on our dog. Shortly after we got her, at age 2, she was diagnosed with hip dysplasia. It was so bad she could hardly stand up. The vet suggested glucosomine with msm and within a few months, she was chasing frisbees again. She's 8 now, still gets her daily dose and is doing well. She had to have an xray about 6 months ago and the vet could not believe how well she walks/hikes/runs, or that she does it at all considering how bad her hip looked in the xray. It apparently helps her pain quite a lot.
I agree with firelady, in that I can definitely feel a difference in my knees when I don't take it. I used to have very creaky knees and since I started taking a glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM supplement some 8 years ago, my knees don't creak and crunch as much as they once did. I will continue to take it.
I have read and heard lots of conflicting opinions. And i've had doctors who recommended it and others who didn't. My vet recommended it for my cat, but she won't eat it. This is typical of many supplements, and it's because they don't want to spend the money to do enough research on it, partly because the fda doesn't require it.
The prevailing "wisdom" I hear is that if your regular diet is low in the stuff your body needs as raw materials for cartilage repair, the glucosamine chondroitin will help. If you already have adequate raw material in your diet, you may not notice a thing.
What DEFINITELY helps is USE. Use those joints. Study after study is showing that using the joints tells the cells at the weightbearing contact to become cartilage. Even if all you get is a thin layer of slick stuff (like in "bone on bone" knees) that may be enough to keep that joint functional. (you won't get the thick cushy cartilage of a teenager, but you wouldn't with a joint replacement, either. Those are "ceramic on ceramic" or what have you.)
Hence the stories we all know of spry elderly guys who are still running in their 80's and 90's. They aren't supermen and they don't have thick miraculous knee cartilage, the thing is that they never stopped so the body found ways to keep going.
I've got guys whose x-rays look terrible, yet they are running a mile or two every day,rain or shine, and they feel great! They are also mentally sharp.
Eat well, supplement if you feel it helps, and keep moving!
(side note: sometimes joints are truly a mess; painful and non-functional and causing misery. Those joints should be replaced. But if you are 70 years old, walking your dog 5 miles a day, and your knee just gets sore once in a while but doesn't even need a Tylenol, let alone a cane or walker.... please don't replace your knee just because your x-ray is bone-on-bone. Of course it is bone-on-bone! Don't go by the picture, go by the function!)
My problem is actually not cartilage related, I have a part of my right rotator cuff that looks like frayed edges of a rope on the MRI. I tried to wean myself off the Glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate/msm because of the cost and conflicting reports of it's success. Although, I swear it works because I only have pain when I run out or it's really humid, or I have to do tricky school bus steering in the winter. It is not supposed to work for anything other than osteo-arthritis issues according to reports, if it even works at all. Maybe it's placebo effect with me, but I might be getting back on it if the pain persists despite what the reports say.
If it works, do it.
The body is so much more complex and cool than studies can ever convey! If you feel better and if you function better, you are better!
It would make perfect sense to me that something helping cartilage repair/generation would also help in a situation with a frayed supraspinatus (I assume that's the one) tendon in a rotator cuff.
Supraspinatus is in charge of sliding the head of the humerus DOWN as the distal end of the humerus elevates. Joint not slippery enough, the frayed supraspinatus can't slide it. (too much friction for the diminished tendon)
If it works, do it!
As one of my instructors said (again and again and again) "it is what it is." If it works, it works.
Here is the most recent evidence on the topic, for those with access to scholarly journals.
Effect of Glucosamine on Pain-Related Disability in Patients With Chronic Low Back Pain and Degenerative Lumbar Osteoarthritis
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/304/1/45
Executive summary: Same as placebo -> doesn't work.
It's not gonna do anything for the lumbar spine, anyway. Completely different problem.
Don't take it for backache. Take it for weightbearing contact joints. If you feel better and function better in 2 months, yay! If not, your diet is already adequate for your current bodily demands and don't waste your money.
Move it or lose it!
(got a backache? Do 10 yoga cobras. Feel better? Move better? Good. Do 10 of them, every two hours during the day and also when you feel pain, until you've had no pain for a full week. Don't feel better? Bummer. Go to a PT and say "I've got a lumbar derangement that doesn't respond to extension." That'll be $263, please.)
My totally unscientific study. I'm 45, almost 46 and getting a bit creaky, but insist on continuing my high impact activities, such as Zumba, running, Turbo Fire... Without it, I have annoying aches - not bad enough to be pain, but enough to keep some of my high impact from being attainable. I started taking it, just to see and 3 weeks later, my knees are more stable, my ankles don't bother me (I tend to suffer from Achilles tendon) and feet are happy. Seriously, I love the stuff. I feel like I lost 10 years off my age. So, to me it's worth it. But like every thing else Your Mileage May Vary.
My rhuematologist (regular M.D.) recommends Cosamin ASU joint health supplement. It has glucosamine & chondroitin but also an avocado/soybean additive. It has actually been shown to help arthritis.
I have arthritis all over my body and it does help me. Regular glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM does nothing. I also take meloxicam daily, which is a prescription anti-inflammatory (NSAID)
As far as aging knees & other high use joints - most people over 50 have all kinds of small tears & arthritic changes. It has been shown that many of those people don't have any symptoms at all. In fact, some of the worst x-rays of joints often don't correlate with any joint pain (or minimal).
Where do you find this? My crunchy knees would like some relief please. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogmama
+1 on that please!Quote:
Originally Posted by bmccasland
I've had arthritis in my knees since mid-30s. I cycle to/from work 18 miles a day because cycling aggravates the pain far less than walking/standing/stairs (i.e. public transport) does. I still have to ice my knees morning and night or risk swelling.
I've tried glucosamine/chondroitin but it made me nauseous so I quit. Don't know if it would have actually helped or not if I'd carried on taking it.
My mom seems to think glucosamine/chondroitin does help her. (She's 75 years old, has had arthritis in her knees since her mid-30s like me. She had a knee replacement a few years ago, then was all set to have the second one done last year but torn rotator cuff took priority.)
As for me, I've been spending my summer thinking very seriously about proceeding this winter with an orthroscopic procedure that's been recommended by two different orthopaedic surgeons. But in the meantime, I'll have a hunt to find out if Cosamin ASU joint health supplement (or equivalent) is available in the UK. If it helps, it may only delay the inevitable, though, whereas I understand a successful keyhole procedure would turn back the clock on the pain by a few years. I'd be so happy to go back to just the clicking and grinding I had 5-6 years ago - if it meant I could walk the quarter mile to the end of the road without pain!
Are dietary sources mostly a matter of getting it directly from other critters' cartilage? Canned fish with bones, meat soups, that sort of thing?
Like Knot says...Move it or Lose it.
Every time i cut back on my fitness walks etc....within a month I get noticeably more stiff and achey- my hip joints, knees, etc. I beef up the walking and voila, no more problem.
i do take Glu/chond, and I feel it helps me. I can't tell you whether that's placebo effect or not.
Every answer you get here is anecdotal. Do a search of reputable (ie, not studies done by drug companies) studies for information.Quote:
Originally Posted by beccaB
In my own personal trial, Hyluronic Acid was more effective than Glucosamine or MSM (Chondroitin comes from animal sources so no go for me) when I had knee problems but to be honest now that I am riding like crazy, I sometimes forget to take it and have not had the pain return.
And, although I was told I had a great deal of arthritis due to injury and surgeries, my acupuncture/massage guy was able to work on my quads and relieve "knee" pain. If your quads lock up it pulls on the knee, that is where you feel it. Something to think about too.
Right now I do my own massage by rolling on a hard foam roller to try and keep my quads loose and prevent knee pain.
Yup, been that route.Quote:
Originally Posted by arielmoon
My arthritis is due to mal-formation of the joint in several separate ways. This was diagnosed by x-ray and MRI when I was 11 - but the orthopaedist (in the USA) 'neglected' to mention to my parents 'oh and guess what, she'll get arthritis at a ridiculously young age because of this'. Xrays and MRI here in England last year showed exactly the same mal-formations... plus degenerative arthritis. :(
PT and stretching regime helped somewhat when I first began cycling a year ago. I was told it was especially important to stretch hamstrings & quads and the PT did a few other things each week to relieve pressure in the joint / on the back of the patella. However, the PT and the surgeon said cycling was the very best thing I could be doing and felt that, if I kept it up (which I have), cycling would accomplish far more in strengthening and supporting the entire knee joint than PT and/or acupuncture ever could.
But the improvement and relief I got from cycling (which was both marked and revelatory) peaked this spring and then declined. It's as if I passed through that stage of "getting stronger = less pain" and now I've arrived at "knee pain now preventing me from getting any stronger than this". :(
My mileage continues to go up each week... and I am wayyyyy fitter and stronger and smarter with gears/hills/etc.... which only tantalizes me with the dream of how much MORE cycling I could be doing... how much faster and stronger I could be... if not for the bl**dy knees.
Hence the surgical option coming back onto my radar.
From what I remember from the little research I've done, it seems to help moving joints that already have arthritic tendencies. So, it helps me. I doubt it would help for just general creaky-ness.
And so what if it is a placebo effect? If believing it helps gets you up and moving, then it really is helping. Moving has been shown to keep joints, well, moving.
The cheapest place I found it was on Amazon.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmccasland
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WJLZ0I/
Note that it is Cosamin ASU, not Cosamin DS.
I think like so many of you have said, it varies with the individual and the joint affected. I too, have had several dogs that it has definitely helped!
AS for me, Knot I'm one of those bone on bone knee kind of girls... have been since I was 21.(I'm 52 now) All of my surgeons have told me that it wouldn't help, that I simply had too much damage. The surgeons also mentioned that as a 21 year old student athlete, that I was definitely a candidate for a knee replacement... On a whim, I thought that I would try it a few years ago, I figured if it didn't help after a couple of months then I could stop. Well, the reality is that it DOES help me, and if I get busy and forget to take it for several days, then it reminds me. I'm one of those people that while going downstairs, everyone can hear me... and it's a standing joke that I definitely can't sneak up on anyone. I live in a 3 story house, so I'm up and down stairs all the time.. so I'm thankful for it. Does it make me have knees like I did before alll the surgeries? NO, but it does make life more tolerable for me.:cool:
Another anecdote. Gluc/Chon has helped my knee pain. That as well as all of my running/cycling/CrossFit - combination therapy.:D Like you Ridebikeme, if I forget the supplement for a couple of days, the knees complain. It does absolutely nothing for my back pain (which is prloapsed disc every now and then) and nothing for supraspinatous (currently driving me nuts). But my knees are telling me they are very happy. Like Knot says- if it works, it works.