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To all the wonderful ladies riding the Tour of the California Alps - aka the Death Ride http://www.deathride.com/index.html here's wishing you a safe and wonderful ride!! I'll be cheering y'all on tomorrow and wishing I had your strength and determination. Y'all rock!!!
I'm rooting for all of you too! You guys are already a couple hours into the ride as I type this...it must be a beautiful morning up there. I hope the T-storms stay away this afternoon. One of these years I'll be up there riding with you!
jobob and mp should be well on their way by now -- I know jo was planning on a crack 'o dark start time.
:cool::cool:
Go Jo and MP (and anyone else who is riding....)!!!
I hope the weather holds for all of the riders and cheering on any TE members who are riding!
thanks for the well wishes everyone! our tnt team finished safe - which given the extraordinary number of ambulances this year was the important thing. some of our riders struggled with the heat - we have had NO hot training days this year. I had a mechanical issue (who really needs a front derailleur?) and that plus a real lack of training time led to my first fewer than 5 pass finish since 2002. but I had fun and was able to shepherd our tail end riders up the last pass. and I got a lot of hanging out at lunch time with velogirl, which was fun.
now to relax and plan the next adventure! we are taking a break from coaching after 10 years coaching for tnt and 5 years with the death ride program. mixed emotions for sure, but it is time for a break.
Yay MP!! Glad to hear the team survived congratulations to you and the rest of the coaching/mentor/captains for another fine season. You deserve the time off after 10 years! I'm only on my second season as a captain, and I'm exhausted.:rolleyes:
How did Jobob do?
Hey, thanks for asking, and thanks so much for the well-wishes!
I'm writing up my report, but I thought I'd pop in to let you know that I did fine, and I'm really happy with what I accomplished.
Things didn't go according to plan for me, and when it became obvious that 5 or even 4 passes were just not going to happen, I kicked back and enjoyed my day.
I climbed the front and backside of Monitor Pass (rather laboriously :D), and I climbed partway up Ebbetts. Turns out I did one-half of the ride, at least on paper -- it worked out to about 64 miles and 7,800 ft of climbing.
And I had a great time! I'll post a full report in a bit.
That's awesome Jo! I have such a freakin' hard time with altitude that I am darn impressed with anyone who can do more than one pass in a day up there. Good job, luv!
Veronica
7800 feet of climbing??? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by jobob
that's A LOT of work. I did about 1600 feet of climbing yesterday and it wore me out...
:D
I get such a kick out of how whacked-out my perceptions have become over the course of the DR training season.
If you told me earlier in the year (heh, or last year!) that I would consider 7800 feet to be a ho-hum accomplishment, I'd have laughed my azz off.
The reality is, I think I can do much better (crazy, but true!) on a good day, but best I could tell the altitude and the heat got to me, and I did what I could on Saturday without turning myself inside-out. I'm not big on suffering. :o
And remember, between Altitude Camp and the ride itself, you have now done ALL of the Death Ride passes.
:D
It sounds pretty darn impressive to me, Jobob! Congrats! I look forward to reading the whole report.
I'm looking forward to your report too, JoBob. Seems like you weren't the only one suffering up there. We had a guy who crashed the day before so he didn't get to ride at all. (He's in the hospital in Reno with a broken collarbone and 6 cracked ribs plus brain bleed). Congrats on all you did do. And all that prep work too.
I hear it was nasty hot most of the day- a woman I know from my town said she drank 8 bottles of Cytomax drink and at least 8 waters. Oh me oh my.
I had super admiration for anyone who even does 2 passes at the DR. You are a champ in my eyes.
AS for MP- she's famous even here in my home town. AND LOVED DEARLY by all whom she has coached! I hear this every time I ask someone about that great lady from TNT who coaches the Marin group!!!!
Wow. [Blushing profusely....]Quote:
Originally Posted by Bike Goddess
:)
congratulation to MP and Jobob,
the ride can be super hot. Hot enough to melt the tire (being so much closer to sun) :p air is thin, sun is blazing hot in some years... Oui. Sounds like a year when everyone was reduced into raisin, dried out!!
MP, I don't know of too many who have participated in DR so many years in a row. whew!!! 7 or 8 years in a row of finishing all 5. :eek: :eek: superwoman if there ever was one.
On DR anything is possible. I've seen guys snap a chain, sucked up a derailure into the rear wheel, guy go over the edge coming down ebetts because of black ice... defeated by the scorching sun.
Good wonderful memories!!! :D:cool::cool:
So let me know when you are ready to come back and maybe that's the year I'll be ready! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by maillotpois
Glad to hear you guys had a safe ride. I heard about all the accidents and injuries this year...really too bad. And I'm sorry about the heat...with the intensity of the sun up there, even if the temp isn't terribly high, it's just HOT.
Last year I hiked Round Top mountain (trailhead at the top of Carson Pass) and I really felt the altitude... and I live at 4,000' so my body is at least a little bit used to it. You guys are just amazing...especially those of you who live at sea level!
:cool: Jobob & MP, you two are amazing chickas. Jo-so glad you were able to participate this year & you're "back". May you have a better time next year :D
MP-thanks again for coaching w TNT
Here's my report, hope you're not in a hurry. :D
Our group (about a dozen of us, including me and Coach mp) started out from Turtle Rock Park at o'Dark Stupid. 3:45 am, I kids you not :eek:
I really enjoyed the ride through Markleeville before the sun came up. It was very peaceful and serene, and the miles flew by. Before I knew it we were making the turn to Monitor Pass.
Heading up Monitor I was still feeling good and had my sights on a five pass finish. I knew I wasn't going to be quick about it, but our last long team ride two weeks ago had given me a lot of confidence. That ride included two -- count em, two! -- ascents of Mt Tam and a climb up the infamous Marshall Wall. I rode about 109 miles and nearly 11,000 feet of climbing. Between that, our altitude camp over a few of these same passes the the weekend before that, and the excellent coaching and training rides throughout the season, I had a good idea of what I needed to do and how to deal with things when the going got rough.
It was lovely to witness the sky lightening with the approaching dawn as we climbed up Monitor. But somewhere along that first climb I realized I was losing energy and my legs were feeling like lead pipes. OK, I thought, I’ve got this covered, I’ll just keep up the hydration, nibble at the Ritz Bits & Wheat Thins in my bento box, take a swig or two of Hammer Gel, kick back a little, and I’ll feel better in a bit.
But I didn’t. If anything, I felt more lethargic over time. It felt like my bike weighed 50 pounds. I watched the rest of my group turn into tiny specs up ahead of me. I figured, eh, this is just a phase, I’ll settle in, and I’d either catch up to them or I wouldn’t, it was no big concern for me, I had tons of time. One of our coaches, Onnie, was keeping an eye on me, and all was fine.
And then the headache started up. It was nowhere near as bad as the one I experienced at Altitude Camp; this time around I had hydrated well throughout the week, both with water and electrolyte drinks, and I took an ibuprofen before we headed out. I glanced down at my Garmin to check the elevation, and sure enough, it read around 7480 feet. I had to laugh at that -- at altitude camp my headache had ramped up at around the 7500 ft mark. I’m nothing if not consistent. :D
I pulled over briefly to down another ibuprofen and to take a brief rest. That helped some and I continued on. The headache soon diminished, it didn’t go away entirely, but it was manageable. My energy was a whole ‘nother story, though. Whenever I tried to pick up the pace just a little, my heart rate would soar. I wasn’t wearing an HRM, but my chest was thumping pretty darn hard. OK, just ease up a bit. Trouble was, I was already climbing fairly slowly, so easing up meant crawling.
I finally reached Onnie who was waiting patiently for me. I was staying pretty calm and I wasn’t worried about holding her up. We finally reached the summit and I got my First Pass sticker. That perked me up a lot, and I looked forward to the descent down the backside of Monitor Pass, which I’d been told is spectacular.
And that descent down the backside of Monitor did not disappoint!! Since we had started out so early, not many people had reached the summit of Monitor just yet, so there weren’t all that many people on the descent. My Descending Mojo was present and correct, and I had an absolute blast. The vistas opening up ahead of me were simply gorgeous. Although dozens had passed me on the climb, I was able to pass many of them on the descent, which gave me a little ego boost. Mind you, I didn’t take any risks –- there was a helicopter ambulance parked at the summit of Monitor which reminded me of where I’d been and where I never wanted to go again! -– but the road was for the most part fairly wide and straight in good condition, the sight lines were good, and the idiot quotient was pretty low, so I had loads of fun. And I tried not to dwell on the fact that, even though I was exceeding 35 mph on much of the descent, and got up to 42 in some places (amateur to some, apparently ;) ), it seemed like it was taking a reeeaaaly long time to reach the bottom. Ergh.
At the east base of Monitor I got my Second Pass sticker – woo hoo! – and I handed off my lights to Gerry, the husband of one of our teammates who had driven over from Nevada to be our drop off guy (thanks Gerry!), and dealt with necessities.
Our bunch regrouped and headed off for the return trip up the backside of Monitor. I hung in there for a bit, but soon I started to fall off again. Coach mp hung with me for quite a while, but we eventually got separated. I slogged on. I was reflecting a bit on some advice mp gave us at our pre-ride dinner the night before, the bit about the chicken and the pig, the chicken being “interested” and the pig being “committed” – ask mp for the gist. Well, slogging up the backside of Monitor, I knew I had no choice but to Keep Calm and Carry On. I was so committed, I felt like a slab of bacon on the frying pan. Which wasn’t too remote of an analogy, it was getting freakin’ hot on the climb. :p
You know you’re going excruciatingly slow and looking kind of pathetic when people passing you call out in really cheery, well-meaning tones: “You’re doing great!" and "Hang in there!". I also got lot of "Go Team!"s. I was beginning to wonder if people assumed I was a very recent leukemia/lymphoma patient, that’s how slow I was going (no offense intended to our honorees, many of whom can and do ride circles around me and many on our team!!).
After a while I realized that 5 passes were not in the cards, and four passes were also starting to look very iffy from a time standpoint. I was still staying upbeat, and occasionally chatting with people on the way up. I had to stop a lot, if only for a minute or two after which I felt better, but even so I couldn’t get any real momentum going, especially as the elevation got over 7000 feet again. This was starting to become Most Decidedly Not Fun.
Starting out that morning I had three big goals for the day:
First and foremost, I wanted this day to be fun. I wanted to be able to look back on this day fondly, with a smile, not a grimace, and I sure as heck didn’t want my love of cycling to diminish in any way from this experience.
Secondly, I didn’t want to mess up anyone else’s chances to finish all five passes, if that’s what they wanted to do. MP had already reassured me a couple of weeks before that it didn’t matter to her one bit if she finished all five or not; she’d been there, done that, and had lots of 5-pass jerseys to show for it. She convinced me that it meant more to her to see me do well and be happy with what I accomplished. Is she cool or what?? :cool:
Thirdly, and this may sound hokey, but what the heck: I wanted to honor the TNT jersey. I was wearing our team’s event jersey, and I wanted to represent the team and the organization in a positive manner.
Crawling up the backside of Monitor, I had hoped that my difficulties would diminish some, but that simply wasn’t happening; if anything, I was getting more and more worn out. My reaction to the altitude and the heat was, on this day anyways, beyond my control. But what I could control was how I dealt with it. Sure, ending the day with only two stickers was kind of embarrassing, but it would be a lot more embarrassing to try to push myself more, for one or two more stickers (big whoop :rolleyes:) and in the process wind up a sniveling cranky whiney heap at the side of the road. And be a burden to my other teammates. And I sure wouldn’t be a good reflection on my team or the TNT organization that way.
So as I approached the top of Monitor, I had pretty much decided to cut my losses, call it a day, and head back to Turtle Rock.
At the summit, there was mp patiently waiting for me. :)
We had a fun descent down the west side of Monitor Pass. By then it was a lot more crowded than the east side descent. I stayed clear of trouble, but I saw a couple of near misses ahead of me that rattled me a bit. Although I was very confident in my own descending, I couldn’t say the same for a lot of the people sharing the road with me at that point. :rolleyes:
When we reached the base of Monitor and the intersection (Ebbetts to the left, Markleeville and Turtle Rock to the right), mp talked me into giving the climb up Ebbetts a go, at least as far as the rest stop about a third of the way up at Scozza’s cow camp. I was feeling rested and exhilarated from the descent so I figured, heck, why not?
But as we were heading up the very shallow grade towards the campground where the lunch stop was located, my heart just wasn’t in it anymore. I was tired. So when we reached the lunch stop area, I said my goodbyes to mp and to Kurt, another team member who had come down with a cold early in the week and as a result was also having a bad day. MP knew better than to give me any grief (I told you, she’s great), but she did ask me to consider at least giving Ebbetts a try, pointing out that I had all day to do it.
I hung out at the lunch stop a bit, and I did feel a lot better. After a while I figured what the heck, it’s not like I had to rush it, so I set off up Ebbetts after all. Once again I went at my own leisurely pace, but since I had no time cuts to make, I relaxed and enjoyed the beautiful scenery. Ebbetts Pass has some of the loveliest scenery on the entire ride. After a bit I saw mp and Kurt who passed by me heading back down – mp looked very surprised and happy to see me continuing on!
As I pulled in to the Scozza’s, one of the volunteers was shouting out to riders that it was the last rest stop for seven miles before the top of Ebbetts. Ugh, seven more miles to climb. I refilled my bottles and treated myself to a few Oreo cookies. Nowadays I only allow myself Oreos when I donate blood, but I figured I deserved them today. I headed off, thinking I’d go as far as the cattle grate or maybe the fake 7000 foot sign (which is actually at 6800 feet) and re-evaluate.
When I reached the cattle grate a couple of miles up the road, I looked ahead and saw the road kick up a lot. Argh. I also realized that hardly anyone was descending at that point – the bulk of the riders were still up ahead, either reaching the top of Ebbetts, heading down the other side or climbing back up the other side. So if I turned around right then and there, I’d be ahead of the teeming masses and have the road nearly to myself. I pondered that for maybe another nanosecond, and set off back down the mountain. And it was very very good. There were a few other riders descending with me but by and large they were fast uber-studly riders with good sense and excellent bike handling skills. And I held my own quite nicely. :)
I got back to the lunch stop where mp and Kurt were hanging out with Lorri Lee Lown of Velogirls. You’ve already heard of mp’s derailleur problems; she decided not to tackle Ebbetts but instead wait for the rest of our group to come back from the front and back Ebbetts climbs, and help them get thru Markleeville, past Turtle Rock and up Carson Pass. Word was that a few of our group were having some difficulties with the heat and the altitude, so mp felt she would be the most help if she joined them at that point and pulled them to Turtle Rock and points beyond. Kurt likewise was going to help out where he could. I figured I wasn’t going to be much help, so after a nice leisurely lunch I said my goodbyes (again) and headed off for Turtle Rock.
As I approached the infamous Grassy Knoll at the edge of Markleeville, I heard someone calling my name – turns out a few team members (Leah, our team manager; Amy, a team member who had a crash a few weeks back and couldn’t participate in the ride; Ken, one of our SAG guys who also volunteered earlier that day up on Monitor), and a couple of teammates’ spouses had set up a cheering section near the Knoll. I joined them and was a part of the cheering section for a couple of hours – what a blast!
After most of the team passed by, I set off for Turtle Rock and the end of my own ride. There I met up with LeeBob (who, after dropping me off at 3:30 that morning, headed back to our hotel in Minden to catch a few zzz’s before heading back to Turtle Rock much later in the morning to hang out at the team tent and wait for us to roll in), and a few others holding down the fort. Eventually, the rest of the team rolled in. The heat & the altitude took its toll on a few who managed “only” :rolleyes: four passes, while a good many of the team did all five. I’m pretty sure I was the lowballer with two passes, but that’s OK.
I ended up having ridden about 64 miles with around 7800 feet of climbing. I got over 40 mph a few places on the Monitor descents, maxing out at a shade under 44 mph (some did closer to 50-55; I may be a confident descender, but not THAT confident!!). On the flip side, I averaged about 4 mph heading up the backside of Monitor. :p
So there you have it. I accomplished my three goals for the day: I think I represented the team well, I didn’t interfere with anyone else’s goals, and, most emphatically, I had a great time. Can’t ask for much more than that. :cool:
Woohoo! Way to go jo - and MP too. :D
Awesome job, Jobob! For some reason, I found myself getting kind of emotional while reading this. TNT makes me think of little Collin, for one, and for another, the and support among you, MP, and your other teammates is really moving. Thanks so much for sharing.
Way to go Jobob and MP! Your story made me all teary and thank you for sharing.
Hi Jobob,
Speed is way overrated. Besides, you finished a tough tough metric century. Good for you!!
I hope you got to see the water fall on Ebetts. You can hear it but, you have to stop and look for it. If not try again next year :D
stay cool and stay safe.
Congratulations. The fact that you enjoyed yourself and had fun, despite not being able to do the whole ride is awesome. And to me, it's the most important thing.
I can't imagine doing that kind of riding at altitude. I start noticing it above 3,000 feet.
Great report!! Glad you had fun and met your goals.
after Monitor pass on my first Death Ride in 2002, my only goal became not to throw up. I did meet that goal....
good ride report, Jobob. what an intense ride! I think you were great. thanks for sharing...
Jobob,
So so so proud of you! You worked towards a goal, you went out there on the big day, and you found out what you were made of (and it's ain't soft and squishy)! Nice work to you and yours!
-- gnat!
Ditto from me too! When we were up there last fall with BJ guys I was amazed that anyone could do that ride. I found the altitude was also an issue for me and to this day, despite what others seem to think, I don't know that I could do the entire ride either.
Kudos to you to listening to your body and doing what's best for you. Even though you didn't complete, the work you did to get there is totally awesome. You are one determined lady and it shows.:D:D:D
I talked to some of those faster riders today and they all said that heat was a big factor this year. Never know what the Sierra is going to be like from year to year. MP probably remembers when it hailed coming down Carson a few years ago.
Hope to see you on the road. We should do a ride one of these days. Maybe the Farifax Mt Tam ride sometime this summer or fall.
Now MP don't you go out and get all excited about that motorcycle I understand you ride from time to time. :p:p:p
Jo - you rule!! I read your report and you're just such a great person that I truly hope I have the honor of riding with you one day soon.
I love your attitude. I love the fact that even though you did not complete all 5 passes you appreciate what you did finish and were true to your goals. I tend to focus on the finish line way too much. I have to remember that truly riding a good ride has nothing to do with crossing the finish line and everything to do with enjoying the ride.
Well done mate!
This flatlander is very impressed.:)
Firstly - way to go Jobob & MP! Jobob, congrats on acheiving your goals and representing your team. MP - I am in awe - I think you're crazy (in a good way!) to be doing this ride year after year. :)
DR happened to fall on my birthday this year. Last year on my birthday weekend I did the 1-day STP, so what better way to celebrate this year than Death Ride, right? I was pretty intimidated going into the ride because due to work, weather, and intermittent knee problems I hadn't trained quite as much as I'd have liked. DH was there with me, and going into it he had already decided he was going to go for the 2 pass route. We had 2 other friends make the trip as well. They'd been training very hard and were setting their sights on a 5 pass finish. As for me, I decided to take it one pass at a time and just keep riding as far as I felt I could...I wanted all 5 but didn't want to get my hopes up too high. My strategy was to keep an eye on my HR monitor and make sure I was staying below my LT as much as possible to keep my endurance up.
Unfortunately, none of our cell phones worked there near the start line and we therefore weren't able to find our other friends. Later I found out they'd thought we were meeting in Markleeville, while we thought we were meeting at Turtle Rock park. DH and I started out at about 5:15, sticking together up til the turn off Monitor Pass at which point we split to each go our own pace. I'm a faster climber and he's a faster descender, so we usually end up meeting up again. I enjoyed the climb up Monitor, and mostly enjoyed the descent aside from being a bit cold. I had brought a jacket layer but not legwarmers as I couldn't fit it all in my pockets and I knew it would be hot later. As I reached the bottom of Monitor Pass, I saw our 2 friends just getting ready to head back up. Apparently they'd started out about 20 minutes before us. DH arrived just as I was parking the bike and we grabbed some food & topped off our bottles for the ascent back up Monitor.
Again I went out in front, and on this leg of the trip I had fun talking to several other cyclists. I was wearing my '09 RAMROD jersey which ended up being a nice conversation starter and several other northwest-based riders introduced themselves because of it. The camaraderie definitely helps you pass the time and distracts you from your suffering on those long climbs. I was starting to have a couple problems though; my knees were starging to hurt a bit and whether it was the altitude or something I ate, I was feeling sick to my stomach. DH caught me near the top of the pass. We hadn't been planning on stopping til the bottom but I had to make a pit stop to go be sick in the sanican. :( I also grabbed some advil for the knees and some more food to try & replace what I'd just lost.
The advil worked, but the food still wasn't agreeing with my stomach and I had to stop again on the way down and again at the lunch stop on the way to Ebbetts where I was to meet back up with DH. I wasn't ready to give up but clearly the bagels & solid foods were not going to be an option. I was carrying a flask of Hammer Gel and a bunch of Perpetuem drink mix, so I switched to drinking all my calories in the hopes of retaining some of them. DH headed back to the finish line at this point and I continued on to Ebbetts. He was kind enough to take my jacket and long gloves which by then were no longer needed.
The front side of Ebbetts starts out OK with a few miles of pleasant lower grade climbing. Then it pitches steep & winding with sections of sustained 11-13% grades. The scenery is gorgeous but this was the hardest climb physically for sure. I was trying to keep my HR below 165, preferably closer to 160, and I was going sooo slow in order to do that. At some points less than 4 mph. Finally I made it and then had another fun descent. I noticed though on the descent that the road was steeper than I'd thought it would be and I was not looking forward to the climb back up. By then it was very warm - not sure how warm exactly but probably mid 80's at least. I'd been chatting with other riders most of the day but kind of withdrew during that ascent, I just felt like I had to concentrate and just keep the legs spinning. This 4th climb is the shortest mileage-wise, but I found it very difficult mentally.
Finally topped out on Ebbetts again and began the descent. This one I took pretty timidly as there are several hairpin turns, the road is not as wide as the other passes, and there are steep dropoffs in many places - if you don't stick those turns it would not be pretty. I was amazed at how fast some of the other riders went...obviously much more comfortable with it than I was. But I don't think that strategy worked out for everyone, as I saw more ambulances on this ride than on any other single day in my life.
I stopped again at the lunch stop where I couldn't eat lunch. I downed some more advil, and some calories in the form of a coke. I was feeling OK and for the first time started thinking that for real I was going to make all 5 passes! But now I was running late due to my slow pace on Ebbetts, and I was running up against cut off times. I sped as fast as I could to Woodfords and made the cutoff by a mere 7 minutes. For some reason I was thinking that the next and final cutoff point at Picketts Junction was further away than it was, so I rolled out hard there, pushing my HR up above LT for the first time all ride, and made it to Picketts with almost half an hour to spare before the cutoff there. I had another coke - this drinking my calories thing was working out just fine - and headed on up Carson Pass toward the finish. A couple miles from the top I saw our two friends descending, so I knew that they'd finished and that boosted my spirits a lot. At about 6pm I reached the top of Carson myself and finally got my last sticker. :) I waited in line for a bit to sign the poster and then started my final descent.
When I arrived back at Pickett's Junction I found the road blocked off by ambulances. They had stopped traffic both ways and were landing a helicopter to evacuate a rider to the hospital. I don't know what had happened but this was a sobering sight. I hope that the rider will be OK. During the evac many cars & cyclists had queued up. I had no desire to become another accident so I let them all go through and clear out before I started down again. Made it back to the car and a proud waiting hubby. He says "You did it!" and I replied "and I'm never doing it again!" :) Went and ordered my 5-pass jersey and then went back to the hotel for a well deserved shower and sleep.
Next birthday, I am going to do something LAZY for a change!!
Great report malaholic, and congratulations!!
And happy birthday too.
Hope you'll post a pic of yourself wearing your 5-pass jersey when it arrives.
OMG another 5 pass finisher!! :cool::cool: congratulation to malaholic!! knee problem and no solid food tough cookie!! ;)
You don't want to do it again? It's a lovely ride with beautiful scenery!! :D:D
Wow - congrats on 5 passes on your first (and apparently only ;)* ) attempt! Well done - and great report.
*after I first did all 5 passes I also swore never again, but then I just kept coming back over and over. Next year I think we'll be out of the country for part of July. Maybe the part that Death Ride falls in, but you can never be sure. There is something that makes me keep coming back to that ride, although, like you, I found the number of ambulances there this year extremely sobering.
Well...funny you should ask that. :) I'm already softening on the "never again" stance. I think one of these years if they have a better jersey design I could be persuaded to try again. I'm not a big fan of this year's design as compared to previous years. I like the older jerseys which have a big logo & text visible on the back; this one says "Death Ride" in really tiny text which will be completely covered by my hair. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingcat