Out of the gym and onto the road - Ideas wanted.

Hey guys - thought I'd pick your brains. My club is full of men - in fact I'm the only woman but a few of the more progressive members, me included would really like to get some more women involved, even if only to stop the Friday night social meeting turning into big beer drinking sessions :p

Has anyone got an good ideas for how we can go about attracting some more women, advertising campaings, introductions session etc.? How can we convince women to get off the exercise bike in the gym and come out for a ride in the fresh air instead?

Ultimately it would be nice to get some women who race, but just girls on bikes would be a good start.

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Big bright flyers in the bike shops, and a supportive attitude when women reply. I would have loved a club ten years earlier than when I finally found one, but cycling is such a boys club, and they keep all the stuff you need to know a big secret. In my other sports teaching was always a big membership development tool, 'cause people who feel ignorant are intimidated. Being taught stuff makes people feel included, and they'll come back. Spin bunnies aren't your best market, they're just aerobics bimbos with a new kind of outfit; but women who are in the LBS are already interested and probably have a bike. Give a workshop, teach them some stuff, and don't underestimate the appeal of a crowd of fit buff guys as a big attraction. ;) Sex sells, and personally I've always found the pursuit of a handsome male backside a great training aid. But I'm kind of a Shameless Jezebel, maybe that should be handled with subtley. :D
Women often have never played sports before, and though we catch on quick to things a club sport can be intimidating. Tell the guys that if they want women around, they need to be nice. And explain things like pack riding and using gears.

missliz

Some just women rides might work well, riding in a pack with men and being dropped is a confidence buster. Remember how scary it was to hang your butt out in public in Lycra the first time? At arts camp we call it "creating a safe environment to fail", except that in a safe environment one doesn't fail.

Most of the women I know like to learn everything before they jump into an activity. Hosting a cycling clinic where you teach a specific skill may be a big draw. Again, keeping it to only women creates that "safe environment to fail" and may draw more in. It would be fine if some of the less intimidating men taught along side you as you don't want to create the illusion of an all girls club. You could plan short social ride after the clinic where they can use their skills and see how fun it can be. Then give them a copy of the schedule and invite them. Afterwards, make it a point to call each participant and get feedback and invite them to come ride with the group.

Good luck! :D

I totally agree with Missliz (!!) about spin classes NOT being the place to meet riders.

Althought I mbike exclusively, I think the principal is the same. I've been on a mission for a few years to meet more biking women, as originally I only knew one other. MY solution- talk about riding to everyone I know. Eventually you talk to enough people and you start having conversations that involve "call me" and "hey let's do it". After a few calls you find out who is serious or not; who gets to stay on the "usual suspects will-call list".

You have to be patient.;) After three years I finally have a really good list of weekday riders. Not everyone can come out all the time, but it's a fun bunch and we've picked up a few beginners this year too.



What about starting a casual club? We have a women's bike club here in addition to a regular road club. It was started by a few women who were originally a 24 race team, who decided to spread the gospel. It's grown from about 20 member to 75 in a year. I found out about it by a flyer at the bike shop.

Missliz, sounds like you have nice club too. I've been real disappointed in mine for a number of reasons but that's a whole nother thread.

Irulan

Last year, my local club which up until that time had been almost exclusively a men's race team began a Tuesday night women's ride. It primarily started as word of mouth...even as we'd pass women on the road we'd invite them to join us. I know a lot of women mentioned it at their spinning classes and to friends who were maybe triathletes, etc. It's nice because we have a no-drop policy on the ride (which would never happen with the men ;) and also the route and pace is set by the group of women who show up each week, so that it meets everyone's needs. This year we may also start a second night with an increased pace, so that everyone's needs can be met-and we continue to grow (maybe into someday having some women who want to race!) One other thing we are starting this year is women's technical clinics. On various Mondays throughout the summer we will take a night to learn everything from basic bike maintenence, how to ride in a pack safely, to cornering, etc. The men's bike team is helping us out so we have some experienced riders who can teach us the tricks of the trade. This has really helped build confidence and community among the women--many of whom don't have much group riding experience. The club also has "coffee rides" to which anyone is invited--you don't need to be a club member. This encourages people to try it out. These are sunday morning rides which also are no-drop rides and are geared on more of a leisurely note--with a stop for coffee at the end. One other thing you might want to play up is any deals you get from sponsors. I know our team is full of deals from sponsors--I got my bike for half of what it would cost at the local bike shop, as well as tires, tubes, helmets, shoes, etc. For someone who is just starting out biking can be an expensive pursuit, and the sponsorship deals have been a big draw for me!! It's been a wonderful experience for me and I have gone from a non-biker (didn't even own a bike) a year ago to a multi-day long distance rider--rode from MN to Chicago last summer (5 days, 600+ miles!) The women's support and encouragement has been the biggest benefit though and has helped to keep me motivated and excited about riding!! Best of Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, Irulan, my fencing, skating, shooting, ect. clubs were great- My cycling club went to hell and I quit when the nasty power hungry little people running it refused to help me organize any clinics. Then I needed new knees and have been away, but I know of clubs in other towns that are big on structured teaching and being nice to people, so it works in cycling as well as every other sport. A lot of new riders have come to town, and a friend I saw in the grocery told me the club was fun again so I sent them a check. As soon as I'm fit again, I'm joining the racing club though, fewer women but more supportive of them.
But the point is, men and women both don't want to be *****ed at, intimidated, or made to feel stupid wich happens a lot in cycling. Most of what I know came from magazines or the nice guys at my LBS, and women at festivals have told me they had to learn the same way.
The great model for this is the legendary Jaquie Phelan and WOMBATS. Womens Mountain Biking And Tea Society. <<www.wombats.org>> A lot of the orgs purpose is for Jaquie to make a slender living teaching, but she has a national contact list and a "wear pearls to race in" attitude. She's trying to build a national womens MT biking network. Check it out.

missliz

I bet there are a lot of other women out there wanting the same thing as you . . . other women riding partners. Someone has to take the first step and let everyone else know this fact. A flyer, like missliz suggested, is a great start. Just get the word out and I'm sure you will find your riding group! Go out and get them, MightyMitre!

PS ... I watched the Paris Roubaix on TV this weekend. Those cobblestone sections look like hell to ride on! Petegem (BEL) was first but "Eki" (RUS - USPS) was third!

Why all the hating on spinning?!!! I know that as a resident of MN (and the same goes for many other places) the weather does not cooperate with cycling for 7 months out of the year (unless you are hardcore!!) So, for many people who are interested on being on the bike, keeping up fitness, and enjoying themselves, they turn to spinning...Heck, to me it sure beats the riding the trainer by myself in the dark, cold basement !! In my spinning class most, if not almost all, of the participants are also avid cyclists! So, as my 5th graders say--Don't be a hater, be a celebrater ;) Be glad that cycling has an indoor counterpart that can offer an outlet on the cold, snowy, rainy, windy days that would otherwise keep many people off a bike altogether!! And don't be so fast to dismiss the good cycling buddies you can find there...ride on my friends!!

I hope you do find some other women to bike with. When I first got into biking it was just Joe and me but lately he has been working a lot of overtime. That meant either sitting at home and moping or finding other people to ride with. We belong to two bike clubs. One road and one mountain. I knew a few women from our club rides and finally got up the nerve one night to call a few of them and ask them if they were interested in an after work ride. WELL!!!!! Were they elated! All it took was me getting up the nerve to ask and now I have a regular bunch of ladies that I ride with whenever Joe is busy. Good luck!

Just that many of us have had the experience of spin classes NOT being a good place to meet bikers. At least in the ones I go to. None of the instructors ride outside, and most of the women that I have talked in the classes do not even own a bike. I've had much more sucess just talking to people socially about it.

Irulan

Hey Tinkerbell- nobody is hating on spinning. The reality is that for every class full of riders there are many classes full of aerobics bimbos. Spinning started in Artie Bakers backyard in the late 70s as a party thing when trainers were invented, a way for riders to get together and do some thing different. It got turned into a gym gimmick largley removed from cycling culture in the late 80s 'cause the little bunnies get bored and there was cash to be made. That's reality. The same thing has been done to boxing, fencing, eastern martial arts, every sport they could think of. Enjoy your classes, but be a realist. 70 % of people in spin classes nationally don't own a bike, or at least one we wouldn't die laughing at. We are there to train as athletes. They are there to look good in clothes. ( Or as part of their eating disorders) Get the difference?

missliz

Why don't you put the trainer in the living room in front of the TV? Every body I know does it that way, either to use spin tapes or watch sitcoms. Basements are full of gross mold and stuff. Bad for the lungs.

Actually flyers in the gym is a good idea, but I'd look in the yoga classes and the weight rooms just as much as any spin class. I'm not the only rider who doesn't do much spin because the seats are so awful.

missliz

That's the difference between the South and the North I guess--basements in the north are for many of us our living rooms. Many people have "finished" basements that double as family/rec rooms, offices, etc. They are often just as nice as the rest of the house. So when I speak of my basement I'm not talking a cellar with mold and such. I do sit in front of the TV, and also have a computer program that I can program to different courses, so that it'll change resistance for me to varying inclines along the route, as well as varies time and type of ride, but honestly I still think the trainer sucks! Having people around me is a huge motivational draw for me-whether that be at the gym in a spinning or aerobics class, on the neighborhood streets with my cycling group. I guess I am just too social to enjoy doing anything in the basement by myself during the dead of winter (or any other time :))...Anyway, I guess it's just a matter or preference...however I still don't see the need to call people who enjoy other activities in the gym--whether it be aerobics, spinning--while not being a cyclist, etc, "bimbos." I think exercising is great-- no matter what form you enjoy...I honestly enjoy aerobics, and don't consider myself for one minute to be a bimbo--or any of those in my classes, no matter what they look like. And why should I care what they are wearing? Heck just because I like shorts and a tank doesn't mean that other people shouldn't enjoy wearing spandex and bra tops if they want-or that their athletic pursuits are any less because they do... I just think we should be careful not to categorize people who are different than us and think that their motivations or purpose for exercising is any less noble then our own. There are plenty of f*%ed up serious cyclists who are anorexic, bulemic, or deal with drug problems, and plenty more who enjoy purchasing cute cycling outfits to enjoy just like those "aerobic bimbos" (including me!)...rock on...

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Originally posted by tinkerbell
...however I still don't see the need to call people who enjoy other activities in the gym--whether it be aerobics, spinning--while not being a cyclist, etc, "bimbos."

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oh, so guess you'd get mad at me if I call them "latte crazed soccer moms in Nordstom's gym wear"?

I'm just kidding.
:rolleyes:

Irulan

I too love the social aspect of "spinning". When I lived in the South (large city) most of the "spin" classes I attended were held at local bike shops. Cyclists would bring their own bikes and trainers and "let the wild rumpus start"(bonus points to moms who can spot that quote!).

I now live in a smallll town in the Midwest and can totally relate to the....what did Irulan call them..."Latte crazed soccer moms..." thing. ;P ( "Not that there's anything wrong with that")I just sort of feel....sorry for them. You start to chat about the joys of being in the great outdoors with the wind in your hair, and they get that "deer in the headlights" look. Sad, really.

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Originally posted by pedalfaster
You start to chat about the joys of being in the great outdoors with the wind in your hair, and they get that "deer in the headlights" look. Sad, really.

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you hit the nail on the head, pedalfaster!!!

Add mud falling off your cleats to the equation....
Irulan

Well,
I've worked in gyms for a number of years; fads and people come and go...I remember sweat bands with velcro so tha the mic-mouth peice, tethered to the belt microphone, would stick to your head...never mind...too hard to explain.

Anyway...
I think that it IS a reality that most people who spin, to include instructors, only spin and never get on a real bike. That's there choice, I suppose...more empty trails for me!

But what REALLY irks me are the women who come to spin class with these $200-300.00 SIDI shoes that will never hit the road/mountain. They are so clean and these women just put them on to spin and remove them after class. They love to walk around the gym holding them as the saunter. (Gym bags, please)
...why don't they just buy Keds and glue some cleats on the bottom? Would work just as well, ya' think?!

It makes no sense to me. Can any of you explain WHY anyone would by hyper-expensive riding shoes to spin when all you need are cleats/there are cages on the pedals?
Terry

It's all about the gear for some people.

Veronica

Veronica,
Don't get me wrong...I love good gear! (Oh man, the $$$ I've spent since January). Plus, there are lots of well-informed discussions here about riding gear that we all really "use" in all kinds of conditions. I just don't see WHY on earth over-priced bike shoes, are needed for spin. I understand high quality padded shorts, good seats, a great workout bra with fantastic support, but...this shoe-thing is sort of like riding an mechanical bull with hyper-expensive chaps or boots. (The chaps keep the chaf of the bull off your body and the boots work the steer to the best of my knowledge. You wouldn't need that expensive gear to ride in a bar...) I guess that's my point about the bike shoes.

Plus, the women come to class and can't clip in because the place where they bought the shoes could care less about showing them/helping them to adjust them to their feet...half the time, I have "the tool" and "fix" their shoes so they can use them.

I think these women look silly. Basically, I'm just trying to understand whether there is something that I'm missing as to why one would need anything more than cleats or, I'm being judgemental. I really cannot get into bashing gym bunnies because I work in gyms...however, I wouldn't mind "informing" some of my classmates that they can go to such and such bike shop for spin shoes and they are only 30 bucks or something...
then if they buy the 200.00 SIDI's...well, so be it.
Terry

I haven't bought biking shoes in like 13 years. I'm still wearing the same pair of Shimanos I got for my first mountain bike. They still work.

My guess on the chicks buying overpriced shoes is someone probably told them they would get a better workout with the shoes. I've heard instructors say that in my gym. Then they went to the store and the clerk sold them the most expensive thing (s)he could convince them to buy. And some people just like to buy stuff so they feel like they fit in.

Veronica

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Originally posted by Terry

It makes no sense to me. Can any of you explain WHY anyone would by hyper-expensive riding shoes to spin when all you need are cleats/there are cages on the pedals?
Terry

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As a sometimes-spin-instructor and part-time LBS employee, I'll bite....

I think that the demographic we are talking about here ("ladies who lunch" have morphed into "women who gym"?) are accustomed to having "the best"---no matter what it is.

If one is routinely dropping $400 on Blahniks (shoes for the fashion-impaired ;) ) then $200 bucks for Sidis is pocket-change.

Personally, I have sold more of the "entry-level" Sidis (~$120) to the spin-only group. They tend to like the simple velcro straps (those buckles are intimidating!) and Sidis glove-like fit and made-in-Italy cachet are definitely selling points.

As far as cleat set-up...since these women do not have bikes, I have no way of checking cleat placement (most customers wanting help with that throw their bike on the trainer). I will usually "place" the cleats in as neutral position as possible, explaining to the customer that she will need to snug them down after she has determined they are placed correctly for her pedaling style.

We started a Triathlon club at our gym 3 years ago. We now have over 60 members, most of them are moms and most of them have 3 or more kids. Most of the time there are at least 3 gals running and swimming pregnant, yes it does make the guys a little nervous to get in the water ;).
6 of these Latte Crazed Moms finished their first 1/2 Ironman this year. They looked cute while they were kicking some serious butt!
Maybe it's because I live in So. Calif. mabey these women are not the norm. But the point I'm getting to is that if you don't offer them the opportunity - that means a solid training program, a supportive environment and some co-op babysitting you might lose out on a great experience.
Oh yeah, I am a Latte Crazed Mom...I do these Triathlons with my Chai Crazed Son. I have placed in my age group and he has placed in his. I look HOT in my cycling shorts! :cool:

Pedalfaster,
I'm doing my best to understand, I hear ya', I'm listening...but,
this one still has me baffled...

For the sake of being downright silly, I am a shoe-aholic. My boyfriend says that I "look" at other women's shoes like men look at women's breast in passing (ohmygod)...I am very serious about my shoes! But, now that I'm on the meds, the shoes and boots don't talk to me when I walk pass them in the shop window saying, "I'm an orphan, please, please take me home"...
Ya' think I'd understand. I digress.

I hear you that if a spinner doesn't ride an outdoor bike, then you have a challenge to adjust their cleats, but, isn't ball of the foot standard when placing cleats? (for starters...)

I can also understand Italian leather snug fit...

In the words of the great Edwina from the British Sit-com, Absolutly Fabulous, "Help mummie-dearst, dahling, I don't understand this at all!", sans the stomping and flaying with a vodka bottle and the smoke...

Ahh...maybe this isn't worth the effort to try and "get it"...
Moving on...any tips on MB shoes for hike and bike? My current shoes are getting a royal beating in the desert and I'm ready to purchase.
Terry

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Originally posted by Terry

I hear you that if a spinner doesn't ride an outdoor bike, then you have a challenge to adjust their cleats, but, isn't ball of the foot standard when placing cleats

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the angle of the cleat needs to be adjusted, at least on spds. If it's not adjusted correctly it can be hard to release or cause knee pain.

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Moving on...any tips on MB shoes for hike and bike? My current shoes are getting a royal beating in the desert and I'm ready to purchase.
Terry

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not really... you want to keep a stiff sole tho... cheap ones tend to break from the stress of the cleat location after a while.

Irulan

Wow guys - there's some good replies there! I recently switched job roles at work so I haven't been able to post as much as I ususally do.

Now, about spinning... I went to a class on Tuesday with an instructor I haven't had before and while the content of the class was ok I think I'll stick with my usual instructor. To start with ( without wishing to sound too harsh) the guy leading the class looked like he could have done with loosing a few pounds, then 2 of the girls seemed to spend more time watching the TV on the wall than puttting any effort in. At this stage I was sweating buckets and probably looked very red in the face - I like to put some effort in but they'd barely even looked warm. It just makes me wonder why people bother paying for a class and turning up if they aren't going to make any effort, and it kind of put me in a bad mood.

Personally I've found spinning been a great help this winter. When it gets dark at 4pm it doesn't really make you want to ride outside, but spinning has helped no end with my out of the saddle riding and switching between seating and standing. ( I'm a roadie) I've really noticed improvements since I started classes back in January - especially on the road.

I have a home trainer which I use from time to time but I like going to an organised class with pumping music and an instructor to encourage you and who like to make you hurt!!


About shoes - I don't know if it's the same in all gyms in England but the bikes we use don't have cleated pedals at all, just toe clips so I have to tighen them up over my trainers. But the idea of buy a lovely pair of shoes that are never going to go near a bike does seem to be a waste - especailly as you can't get them adjusted properly and could end up hurting your knees. There's no reason why people shouldn't have nice kit but to me it's a bit like having a top racing car and only ever driving it down the shops or in a 30 mph zone. Or am I just jealous because want some nice new kit..... :)


Goddess1222 - Paris-Roubaix was cool. We took a BBQ and cooked burgers, drank beer and got totally covered in dust as the riders came by . All the Belgians who were already pretty merry went totally nutts when Van Pettegem won. It was excellent!









:D

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Originally posted by MightyMitre

Now, about spinning... I went to a class on Tuesday with an instructor I haven't had before and while the content of the class was ok I think I'll stick with my usual instructor. To start with ( without wishing to sound too harsh) the guy leading the class looked like he could have done with loosing a few pounds, then 2 of the girls seemed to spend more time watching the TV on the wall than puttting any effort in. At this stage I was sweating buckets and probably looked very red in the face - I like to put some effort in but they'd barely even looked warm. It just makes me wonder why people bother paying for a class and turning up if they aren't going to make any effort, and it kind of put me in a bad mood.

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two comments: weight has NOTHING to do with abilty to lead a good class. My favorite instructor has very much a "peasant" build so what?
second , if you are sweating buckets and red in the face I'd like to gently suggest you check your heart rate?

Irulan

ohhhh. so cooool. i am so glad you keep us updated on the races over there. i wish i could have been there.

OK, my sincerest apologies if my use of the term bimbo was offensive- I thought it was commonly understood that the term reffered to a personality type, not a specific clothing style or class. I'll try not to use it again. I just spent too many years in gyms training for competition and getting a lot of really b****y backlash from little airheads who resented me being there for contrast. Maybe you're too young to remember that even in the eighties women athletes were under a lot of pressure not to be fearless, not to go for it, not to do every thing everybody on this board considers Saturday afternoon fun, and most of that came from catty little gym bunnies. All the guys thought it was cool that I could leg press 250 and came home with the top three loot, but I got lectured in the locker room once about how unladylike I was- by an aerobics instructer with bad dental damage from throwing up. Gyms are still full of these kinds of women, fortunately a lot fewer, but still too many. Having been judged really harshly by this type of high school style little witch, I don't really feel bad about calling them who they are. And I have those clothes, looked great in them, and will again.
Tinkerbell, the only reason you have Title Nine, and betty bikes, and the freedom to play hard and get dirty without being called a freak or a lesbian is because my generation put up with a lot while we banged on those doors. Spare me the diatribe. I was the Nike ad when you were in diapers, so say thank you.

missliz

Before I hear any more about it, being called a lesbian is fine- if you like to sleep with women. Being called the pejoritive of lesbian as a tool of intimidation to make you toe somebody elses boring little standard of femininity is most uncool- I'm sure the gay girls would agree. This practice was all too common until really recently and still happens too much.

I find the shoe thing facinating too- I was asking the instructor at my new gym about the pedals on the spin bikes, she was all in Pearl Izumi and muddy mt bike shoes, looked like she rode, but utterly clueless. My LBS guys tell me they sell high end shoes to "latte crazed soccer mom's":p all the time- we decided it's like the giant SUVs, a fantasy life prop. I live at the plantation in the mud and bugs half the year, and know a Lincoln Navigator wouldn't make it a hundred yards on dirt, But the same people have those, or the pretty Lexus, or whatever. Consumer goods with a certain image are so much easier than actually risking an adventure. How many Jeep Wranglers with 30 inch tire packages never taste dirt either? Cigarettes are marketed the same way- for every one of a certain number of self images, there is a brand and an image. That's how smokers start in high school, it's so alluring and easy to buy the promise and image of sex and fun (Newport!) and friends and sophistication (Benson and Hedges)- Sidis are self image on the credit card for some people. Thats why they carry them around, there's no self image if nobody sees it to reflect back. And no nasty road rash.
So they are in the woods after all, just need us to hear them fall.

missliz

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Originally posted by missliz
OK, my sincerest apologies if my use of the term bimbo was offensive- I thought it was commonly understood that the term reffered to a personality type, not a specific clothing style or class. I'll try not to use it again. I just spent too many years in gyms training for competition and getting a lot of really b****y backlash from little airheads who resented me being there for contrast. Maybe you're too young to remember that even in the eighties women athletes were under a lot of pressure not to be fearless, not to go for it, not to do every thing everybody on this board considers Saturday afternoon fun, and most of that came from catty little gym bunnies. All the guys thought it was cool that I could leg press 250 and came home with the top three loot, but I got lectured in the locker room once about how unladylike I was- by an aerobics instructer with bad dental damage from throwing up. Gyms are still full of these kinds of women, fortunately a lot fewer, but still too many. Having been judged really harshly by this type of high school style little witch, I don't really feel bad about calling them who they are. And I have those clothes, looked great in them, and will again.
Tinkerbell, the only reason you have Title Nine, and betty bikes, and the freedom to play hard and get dirty without being called a freak or a lesbian is because my generation put up with a lot while we banged on those doors. Spare me the diatribe. I was the Nike ad when you were in diapers, so say thank you.

missliz

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Hey! Do the names Cory Everson and Rachel Mclish mean anything to you? ( of course they do) I was body building in the early 80's too. Try being a lifter in rural Wyoming. I was the lone female in the weight room. And then when I started lifting when pregnant, you want to talk about funny looks, rude comments and more...

Irulan

Hi! One idea to find more women riders-- out on the road. I carry a few business cards in my jersey pocket to hand out to other women riders, since I found that in most instances when I did meet someone on the road, we never called each other because we didn't have pens and couldn't remember someone's last name/phone number until we got home. I also stop women riders I see when I'm in my car. I know it sounds crazy, but women riders seem to be few and far between so you have to jump at the chance when you get it. Also, consider participating in a large-scale organized ride in your area. I usually meet tons of women in such events. Sometimes you get lucky and they live nearby. The biggest problem is carving out a mutually agreeable time. Most women who ride either work or have kids, so they have this tiny window where they can get out on the road. Just tell everyone you know that you're looking for women to ride with. I met one of my best riding partners through my babysitter! She knew I rode, and when a new neighbor moved in next door to her, she noticed the road bike and Burley in her garage and hooked us up!

Irulan - just read through my post from the other day and it does sound a bit whiney in parts. Blame it on a bad day at work!

What I meant when I said the instructor looked like he could loose weight was that he just generally looked out of condition. My previous instructor was very toned and energetic but I know everyone has a different style of teaching and as far as coaching goes, I'm in total agreement, weight has absolutley nothing to do with ability.

However, when it comes to classes like aerobics, where the teacher does and you follow, as a paying customer, I feel more confident in an instructor who looks like the classes actually work rather than someone who looks like they could do with a lie down. ( Poor guy - he'd probably had a tough day. :) )

Wow...
Two different threads going all at once; The female athletic personality v the girly persona, and, the rich girl next door v the girl-jock that could care less, but now, it's personal.

To me...
It's all how you see the game; the women here really like the game/the sport/the dirt. The "other women" seems very afraid of the unleashed power emanating from women who are not afraid that they are going to get hurt while playing the game.

Girls are supposed to be delicate and girls are not supposed to get "hurt" like boys...that's why most of the woman in spin will never get on a bike and ride the road/mountain. Education or no education. We are dealing with a belief system. If you intentionally, "illogically" purchase expensive shoes, your persona says, "it's all about me", no matter if it's your dime or someone elses.

A lot of the gym girls scream, "not fair" because female "jocks" aren't playing "the game" they way they think a woman should--hence the aerobic instructor with the tooth damage from her puke sonatas. The belief system, as many of us know too well, is girls are supposed to play nice with the other girls and if you're playing with/on the same field with "the boys", you're a threat to some other woman's security (mental/emotional/physical).

I see this belief system as a stinky cest pool; the keepers of the cest pool are "needy" people. Needy people are closet control freaks. These people appear to perpetuate a persona that we all should live by their rules and pour energy into them/their belief systems. Geez, what a waste.

In essence, they don't play "fair"! They hide behind a belief system and a persona that they are constantly trying to perpetuate as desireable. (Needy is desireable?) Anyone with their eye on the game knows that you don't get what you want or need by sitting around, wasting your time on persona/cest pool belief systems/being needy.

Whew! Did I just spew or what?? Well, I'm gonna let it stand as food for thought...hopefully, most of the women here will rise above the "ilk", the games, the persona and live by what YOU believe being female athletes. Don't snub/snob the needy, just let them be in their own world. (Well...sometimes, I wanna put my hands on my hips and stick my tongue out at them...)

Meanwhile, back at the trails, I'm having a blast! Let'm drink latte and get buzzed!
Terry

(BTW, which one of you ladies said that you've worn a tiara while riding? WOW! Did you find one that fit over your helmet? Hey! Maybe I'll paste some big gawdy rinstones on my helmet
...ummm...playing "girly" of my own terms works for me! Ya' think the guys will mind? Just joking.)

i think that was my girl MissLiz wearing the tiara on her Mardi Gras helmet. correct me if i am wrong Liz, my apologies.

i am going to attach one to my stem, right in front of the dog bones.

Closet control freaks! I like that. Sums up that whole business well. And the needy can have all the Sidis they want, I just don't want to have to listen to their deep seated inner fears and conflicts. It's a type of puritanism, like that fear that somebody, somwhere, might be having fun? Those same women called everybody a **** in high school, I bet. I know they sure called me that, and I couldn't get any to save my life. :D
And I'm the tiara girl, except that the actual collection lives in a glass case when I'm not wearing them around the house. I found the iridescent butterfly stickers I got off my neice work better on the skid lid, glue can mess up your helmets structural integrity. Except for the Mardi Gras Day helmet, which has ostrich plumes and rhinestones. I could never get the tiara to sit well and stay bonded.
A nice rhinestone necklace with riding clothes is always appropriate, and easier to fool with. Jaquie Phelan (personal idol) favors pearls herself.
Anyway, Irulan I do of know Cory Everson and Rachel Mclish. I'll admit I didn't know what to think at the time, till I met the American Gladiator chicks and found out how normal they were, even they joked about their TV roles. They worked 4 months and skiied all winter on it. They were very petite in person! and encouraged me to tackle the big plates, grunt, all that unladylike stuff. My weight training was to backup fencing, not straight bodybuilding, but I looked so great and I think those chicks were jealous'cause the big weights give such great results. And I got to eat. And I think it did scare them- strangely the men were really cool with me. And theres a long list of other women from the eighties who blazed the trail for Mia Hamm and the entire WNBA and soccer daughters who are going to totally freak out their "latte crazed soccer moms in Nordstoms workout wear":p someday. (Yeah!)

missliz

Maybe I'm just dense? I thought of my self as human before female. Apparently thats really unladylike too.

wow. Lots of good stuff here.

First how about a group hug? We all have our spew/rant/whiny/bratty/ whatever moments here...I suppose I'll get thumped on the head if I say blame it on PMS:devil: And then tiaras for everyone

missliz... good for you on the body building to back up your fencing., I was doing it out of boredom when my hubby was in the oilfields of Wyoming boom times. It wasn't until later that I realize how having strength affected my sports in a good way. (climbing, skiing, road riding)

now, regarding the instructor who could stand to lose a few...from where I sit, I see more whether they are qualified to teach and know what they are doing than whether the thighs or tummy is a little soft. I'm more relaxed about this as I age I think.
Granted I am almost the same size I was 20 years ago, but I'm so much more relaxed about many things. But I thinki'ts a good thing when less than perfect bodies are out there doing their thing.

I was thinking about the shoe thing today - I went to spin as we've had monsoon weather here and the trails won't be dry for a few says. Here's the one I didn't get: $200 bike shoes and yet not having good cylcing shorts....:rolleyes: whatever. The music was great today.

missliz, I sent you a PM

Irulan

Well said Terry - I guess it's also a tribute to us as women that we can carry on about 20 different topics of conversation at the same time!!!:D

missliz - as you said ealier I guess it really was your generation that opened the way up for women today.

At school I wasn't really intersted in the sport on offer - it's very limited in the UK for girls to hockey, netball and tennis which I think schools like to considered as 'nice' ladylike sports for 'young ladies' to play. Not too physical or challenging and (in my school anyway) demanded we wore a little pleated PE skirts at all times. So i joined a rowing club out of school and had a great time.

( By the way, I know others who do some the above sports can be any thing but 'nice' when they really get going!!:D )

There were a couple of gilrs at school who were exceptionally good at sports - one of them went on to swim fo England but as far as I can remember she never had to put up with any comments about her sexuallity. As far as i can remember everyone was very proud of her achievements. So thanks to those of you who paved the way for the rest of us to enjoy our sports reletively hassel-free.

I guess at the end of the day it's got to be live and let live. I like riding my bike and to be honest, only go to the gym to compliment by riding and/ or if the weather makes it impossible to go out side.

Terry - I understand where you're coming from about the perpetutation of the idea of 'neediess. ' and I feel lucky it's not a concept I've ever bought into. I also feel lucky that I can be what I like. Some days I like to go out and get muddy and other days I like to get muddy while wearing a flowery jersey,nail varnish and jewlery, just to emphaise the fact that I'm having a great time and I'm also a girl and it is possible to do both things at once!! :p

Yes - group hug ((((( ))))).

Irulan - just to reassure you I'm not as totally hung up on the condition of the instructor( unless they're male, tanned, with nice a nice firm bod.... perhaps I was wrong! LOL ) and I'd would ALWAYS rate qualifications and teaching style over the size of their waiste.

I 'm still pretty new to the whole spinning thing and until I feel a bit more experienced I suppose I just want an instructor I feel comfortable with and knows what they're talking about. For me the body of a well buffed instructor acts as something to encourage me, and at the moment I need all the encouragement I can get - especially after all those Easter Eggs!!!:D

how'd you like this guy for your instructor.

mmm baby


Irulan

thanks irulan, I LIKE WHAT THAT HOTTY IS HAULIN'. UH,OH YEAH, UMMMM, I LIKE THE BIKE TOO.

he can group hug me anytime. LOOOOOOVE THOSE SHAVED LEGS.