Rockhard saddle with no cutout advice please

Despite having read countless threads on saddle's for woman i can't find the right answer to put my money on the line so i'll post my own q'n and hope for some specific female help/advice.

After riding and trying several saddles (Brooks, SAA, Bontrager, Specialzed, Rolls) i come to the conclusion (wrong obviously) that i need a flat, hard saddle and here's why.

- Flat (not round) because than the space between my girlie_bits and soft tissue is max when i lean forward
- No cutout/long dent as the small sides hurt a lot in my inner thighs
- No gel/foam because as my seat bones will 'sink' in so the space between my girlie_bits and soft tissue becomes less and could/will lead into painful contact.
- My sit bones take all the pressure, but this will take time and eventually is less painful that the problems 'upfront' especially when one is doing good milage a day when out riding.

Due to the fact that most reviews of (hard) saddles are for man i have serious doubts if this is what is should base my new purchase on.

Now i need some advice from you woman which saddles fall in this category as i'm not able to test saddles anymore from the lbs so a purchase is all i can do now and in order not to end with my private stock of saddles i need your help.

So if anyone has a saddle that falls in to the above category of flat and hard with no cutout/dent than i love to hear from you and/or read your experiences.

you're pretty much describing the Brooks b67-b68

Or my fav, San Marco Glamour Aspide

Women tend to fit on wider, more T-shaped saddles, but this is by no means universal. Is there a specific reason why you have serious doubts about a "men's" saddle? (Brooks saddles are wide and T-shaped, but do not have a WSD version.)

The flattest, hardest saddle that I can think of is a Selle San Marco Glamour Aspide. It does have a "dent", but it's not very deep IMO. It was too hard for me, but I like its shape.

How wide of a saddle do you need?

Sorry, no brooks anymore. I've had 2 (team pro and team pro s) and they don't work regarding the soft tissue.

Why no mens saddle it's because of the explanation from roger minkow from specialized (click the bg video's) where he explains that males 'only' have one problem and woman have 2. It gives me a 'false' review on what is most important for me the soft tissues.
That is why i specifically put my q'n up here on this female cyclistforum.

I had recently a very informative answer from a selle italia rep where he explains on the how and why regarding saddles and everything that comes with it.

Esspecially the part where he explains about hiking shoes made an impression with me. Did you ever see somebody hiking for several day's using soft paddes shoes .. There's a reason why they wear firm to hard shoes and i believe saddles are the same especially if one is spending hours in the saddle a day when out riding.

Please keep sharing your thoughts and/or experiences.

I include the full length reply.

Please take some time to read this long email because it will help you on selecting your saddle.

Unfortunately it’s always hard and frankly quite impossible to recommend or say which is the most comfortable saddle for you, even if you give us certain criterias as your weight, height or type of bike or specific problem that you suffer.

The reason we produce more than 20 different models is because we need to accomplish our products to the needs of all different types of cyclist and their way of riding a bike.
As you know some riders like to sit far way in the back of the saddle as well as slightly towards the front nose of it. The different riding position on the same saddles implies a “reaction” from it that is different from person to person.

In accordance to this we usually don’t recommend a particular model of saddle but we can advise which are the most used saddles by pro riders and the most sold to our consumers.
This will give you a clear idea of which are the most appreciated saddles by the performance pro rider and the comfort oriented consumer.
Considering that we sponsor more than 65 UCI teams (this includes road, women, triathlon and MTB) we can easily say that the most popular saddles used in the peloton are:
SLR
SLR GEL FLOW
FLITE GENUINE GEL
FLITE GEL FLOW
TURBOMATIC
SLR KIT CARBONIO
PROLINK GENUINE GEL
LADY GELFLOW (only for ladies)
SLK LADY GELFLOW (only for ladies)

For those riders more concern about comfort like you, specifically for a "specific problem", the following models are our most sold and appreciated saddles:
SLR GEL FLOW
FLITE GEL FLOW
PROLINK GEL FLOW
FLITE GENUINE GEL
MAX FLITE GEL FLOW
TURBOMATIC GEL FLOW
SLR
SLC GEL FLOW
PROLINK GENUINE GEL
LADY GEL FLOW (only for ladies)
SLK LADY GEL FLOW (only for ladies)

To make an easy comparison please use this "rule" when you choose a saddle. Saddles are like shoes. If you choose a soft shoe for walking, your bones will not find support so after 1 or 2 hours you will feel pain. They are OK for walking 15 or 30 minutes. Saddles are the same. If you ride for 30-50 minutes you can use any saddle (even very soft) but if you ride for more than 1,5 hours, your bones need support and they shouldn't sit on a soft padding. More you ride (or walk) and more stiffer the foam should be. For pro riders sometimes we need to add carbon into the shell and make very stiff foams, otherwise they have difficulties after the first 3-3.5 hours of riding. More stiffer the saddle is and more they like it.
Please also note that since the introduction of the “anatomical cutout” saddles (so-called Gel Flow) these have been always between 55-60% of sales because they are much more comfortable in the front tissue area.

WHAT SADDLE IS BEST FOR ME?
Not everyone has the same requirements for comfort, fit, looks, etc.
With that said, the following information is offered in an effort to help you find the most comfort in a saddle for you. The final shape, cover, material, padding is like the color - it is your choice.

1) The more flex the rail of the saddle has the more comfort. Flex absorbs road vibrations and impacts rather than being passed on to the rider. The most flexible rail material is Titanium Tube (it is also the most expensive and lightest.) The least flexible rail material is FeC Alloy (it is the least expensive and heaviest.) Carbon, Manganese and Vanox are other materials that vary in flex and price as well as weight. In addition, the rail should be as long as possible. The longer the rail the more flex and shock absorbing it will be.

2) The base of the saddle should be nylon not plastic. The flex of the nylon will provide more vibration and shock absorbing than a plastic base. You can see the difference by pushing against the saddle base with your thumb. If it is nylon, the saddle base will move. Plastic will not move. The more stiff the base the more stiff the ride! (All SELLE ITALIA saddles are manufactured using nylon composite or nylon/carbon composite.) Nylon/carbon composite saddles are lighter but they are also stiffer.

3) Padding alone is not enough to judge comfort. Have you ever sat on a pillow or cushion on a metal, concrete or plastic bench? You will eventually feel the stiff bleacher even with lots of padding. It is the same with a saddle. If the saddle has lots of padding but the base and rail will not flex it will become uncomfortable.

4) Making sure the saddle is properly adjusted will help with comfort. This will take patience and adjustments can only be made by the rider.

A saddle must be positioned so the rider does not reach too far forward or sit too upright. This cannot be done by sliding your seat forward or aft on the rails more than a few millimeters. (Your saddle should be mounted as close to the center of the rail adjustment as possible.) It may require a different handlebar stem or seat post than your bike is currently equipped to achieve this.
The angle and height of the seat is important as well.
The height of the seat should be adjusted so that your leg is straight out when your heel is resting on the pedal at the bottom reach of the crank and your foot is parallel to the ground. (Do not over extend the leg and do not have it curled.)
The angle of the saddle should be adjusted to fit "you". If you find yourself getting sore on the "sit" bones, tilt the saddle nose down a little but not too much at one time. Try it again and re-adjust as necessary but not too much at one time. If you find yourself getting sore in the front soft tissue area, raise the nose a little. Try it again and adjust it a little at a time. Do not go from one extreme to the other. It will not help.

5) Leather covers do not sweat like synthetic covers. Because leather does not sweat, it causes less friction and less irritation. The leather costs more but it provides more comfort

6) Shape is important! There are different "shapes" of saddles. Saddles like the SLR, TURBOMATIC, SLK, C2, YUTAAK and PROLINK have several riding positions because of the flat area on which the rider sits. Saddles like the SLC, FLITE, MAX FLITE, are less flat allowing the rider fewer sitting positions. Analyze your riding style and body type so that you ride the saddle that best fits your style of riding.
Selle Italia has in production 2 different shapes for all its saddles: the ROUNDED SHAPE and the FLAT SHAPE.
FLAT shape (saddles as SLR, PROLINK, MAX FLITE, SHIVER, SL, MAN, allow the rider to have multiply positions on the saddle that means you can move back and forward while riding.
The ROUNDED shape (saddles as FLITE, C2, TURBOMATIC, XO) allow only 1 or 2 sitting positions and are more suitable for those riders that don’t like to move on the saddle.

FLAT SHAPE ROUND SHAPE


Evaluation should include:
a) if you move around a lot and ride in several positions, a flat saddle should be more comfortable as it provides more sitting positions. If you have a tendency to sit in 1 or 2 positions, a curved saddle should be more comfortable.
b) note that flat/wide saddles provide better support for persons with wide sit bones. If the saddle is too narrow the sit bones will not provide the support needed to keep the soft tissue area supported over the top of the saddle.
c) note that narrow sit bones will cause the riders leg to rub against the edge of the saddle if the saddle is flat/wide. A narrower saddle platform should be selected for the narrow sit bones

d) easiest way to determine potential comfort is to look at what is being ridden and what isn’t liked about the saddle and to focus on a new saddle that helps eliminate the current problems remembering padding is probably not going to solve the problem.
Most of all SELLE ITALIA models use leather covers that lessen friction between the cyclist and saddle. Leather also breath’s reducing the sweating and resulting discomfort.
All SELLE ITALIA Genuine Gel and Gel Flow models have real "silicone gel" located in the frontal soft tissue area and under each of the sit bones. Gel absorbs 300% more vibrations and impacts than standard foam.
In an effort to eliminate as much confusion as possible about these series of saddles, please note the following descriptions and availability.

GENUINE GEL SADDLE MODELS
All SELLE ITALIA "Genuine Gel" saddle models include real surgical "gel" (some companies use "soft foam" and call it "gel") strategically placed for added comfort. "Genuine Gel" saddles DO NOT have any "hole" in the saddle foam/base.

All current models of SELLE ITALIA Genuine Gel saddles include "gel" in the frontal soft tissue area and under each of the sit bones. All Genuine Gel models are available only with leather cover.

GEL FLOW or FLOW SADDLE MODELS
"Gel Flow" indicates a soft tissue hole in the saddle foam/base plus real surgical gel located around the soft tissue hole and under each of the sit bones. “Flow” indicates a soft tissue hole in the saddle foam/base without the gel insert.
"Gel Flow" and “Flow” saddles have become best sellers the past 6 years and SELLE ITALIA is expanding the range. All of the saddles are available as "Gel Flow" with leather or Lorica cover.

SUPER LIGHT MODELS
With the current increased interest in road bikes and the resulting quest for super light products, SELLE ITALIA is proud to have not only the lightest saddle available anywhere (86g) but more saddles under 200 grams than any other saddle manufacturer in the world. For many riders these saddle models are extremely comfortable as well as being light! Saddles weighing less than 200 grams include: SLR (135g), SLR XP (180 g), SLR Kit Carbonio (125g), SLR Kit Carbonio Flow (125 g), SLR T1 (195g), SLR Teknologika (120g), SLR Teknologika Flow (120g), SLR C64 (82g), Flite Kit Carbonio (150g), Flite (200g), Flite Team Edition (200g), CX Zero (86g), CX Zero Teknologika (91g), Optima (135g),

Finally, the #1 saddle for SELLE ITALIA from its introduction in ’91 was the Flite Titanium w/black leather. For the past two year’s the SLR series replaced the Flite series as the most popular saddle. In addition the "SLR Gel Flow" offers the serious rider extra comfort in the soft tissue area without having a heavy saddle. This does not mean the Flite or SLR is the best for your particular needs but it does indicate that many people like these 2 models.

RAIL CRITERIA:
None of the materials have a rider weight limit! They will all work extremely well used in a normal course of riding.

Most riders have problems with bending or breaking rail:

a) when impacting the saddle during landing after becoming airborne! The earth will not move or give so the saddle must. This usually happens during aggressive riding when the bike gets airborne or runs into a pot hole/curb, the riders foot slips off the pedal/rider loses balance/or ? and the rider impacts the seat when the bike hits the ground or edge of the pot hole/curb.
Bent rails can even happen when road bikers "jump" a pot hole/curb/railroad tracks/? and do not time the jump correctly impacting the saddle.

b) Stress riser caused by the seat post cradle. A sharp edge of the seat post cradle creates a stress riser that will eventually cause the rail to break.

As with most things that can bend or break (stems/handlebars/rims/seat rails), the riders riding technique or riding circumstance when it bends/breaks has more to do with durability than the product material.
The advantages of Titanium, Titanium Tube or Vanox are it is lighter and it flexes more than other materials. The advantages of Manganese are it’s lighter and flex more than FeC Alloy. The advantages of Carbon rails is the lightweight and strenght.


Best Regards

CUSTOMER SERVICE

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pedal wench

or my fav, san marco glamour aspide

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+1.

How wide a saddle do you need? And do you do better with T-shaped, or more pear-shaped? Start with the major fit criteria so you can eliminate a whole lot of saddles that won't work for you, then move on to the more subtle differences.

Harder than tensioned leather pretty much puts you on one of the uncovered carbon saddles. Expensive... and I think all of them are rather narrow, although again you don't say how wide a saddle you need.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Harder than tensioned leather pretty much puts you on one of the uncovered carbon saddles. Expensive... and I think all of them are rather narrow, although again you don't say how wide a saddle you need.

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Yes, expensive and can be quite narrow. But it could work. My new saddle is the Selle Italia MEN'S SLR XC (yes, a "mountain bike" saddle on a road bike; it does have a cutout, though). The SLR is all three: hard, and narrow, and expensive! Once I got over the sticker shock I was pretty happy with it.

Have you looked at the aero Velo saddles?

+1 on "what width?" Have you measured your sitbone distance?

My guess is that the reason why you get soft-tissue pain is because your sitbones are not well supported at the back (and possible seat angle, see below). So the Brooks Team saddles would have been too narrow for you but the ones Mimi mentions might work. (Not 100% sure on the specs of each but I remember

Also saddle positioning could be an issue. Totally flat? Slight tilt forward or backward? Makes a WORLD of difference. Have you tried different things?

I also like rock-hard saddles and I would encourage everyone I know to get one. I currently ride a stock Bontrager saddle on my commuter that's surprisingly comfortable, and a Selle Italia SLR Lady Gel Flow (with a cutout). I have experienced cut-out saddles that hurt (Terry) and others that didn't (both ladies' and men's Selle Italia).

By the way, there is no "right answer" to your question. Saddles are an EXTREMELY personal thing and there is no other way than trial and error. Some things help (knowing your preference about T- versus pear-shape, width, cushiness, tilt angle once you do have the saddle...) but for other features you're pretty much on your own. I find the reviews totally useless: I'm the only reviewer who can tell what saddle my backside likes.... after I've tried it.

there is something quite wrong with your comparison between feet and "bottoms"
we were NOT designed to sit. Sitting is something quite modern, we started sitting when chairs were invented. (And bicycles) People have walked for millions of years without shoes. People are now running without shoes.
so that comparison of feet and all the delicate structures that must rest upon a abike saddle doesn't quite work for me, sorry. good luck on finding a saddle. You were not able to explain why the Brooks does not work although I notice both saddles you tried were narrow.
good luck on your search i know it's not easy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pedal Wench

Or my fav, San Marco Glamour Aspide

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I second this! I love mine!

Who are you?

that is:

How do you ride?
How buff is your bum?
What's your distance range?
How wide is your sit bone span?

My centre sitbones are about 110 mm's. But should one take the centre as a fact or also the outside measures. Never found a answer on that one though even from lbs's.

The similarity between walking and cycling (long distance or being active for long hours a day) is that the longer you walk (and ride a racingbicycle) than the more support you need for both.

The key q'n maybe what is being considered long ... For me a short ride is anything less than approx. 50 miles and a long ride is approx. 100 miles and more. If someone else disagrees in what is short/long than obviously than there is also the difference in what kind of saddle one is using and what is perfect and what not.

Anyway it's not wrong it's just a difference in how each sees what.

As for how wide sitbones are is for me not the #1 choice in buying a saddle as for me other items are more important like:
- How long is your ride
- How many hours does one spend in the saddle
- What is the riding style
etc etc and than there is the choice in how wide a saddle should be.

It should never be the #1 choice on choosing a saddle, but than again that's me how i look at things. This however does not automatically result in finding the perfect saddle the first time, but one can eliminate a lot.

Yes, saddles are trail and error and very personal, but by working your way thru a list of (something like the list above) one can save yourself a lot of trouble and effort in working with saddles that have a small change in being perfect (exceptions are however always possible).

Further more i find reviews helpful although it requires a bit of careful reading thru the lines in what people actually are saying and see things as a guide line than they can be helpful otherwise one could end up with a pile of near new saddles as few saddles can be tested thru lbs's. Also it's important to know if a man is giving the review or a woman.

This post is not to prove i'm right and others are wrong it's just a sharing in experiences and i hope this is the way how we look/read things and that we are able to help each other so we don't have to invent the wheel over and over with all costs and negative experiences included.
With each other for each other.

Keep on cycling :)

I think what we were all trying to say is that if a saddle doesn't fit, then it's never going to be right, no matter what kind of riding you do or how short your rides. From the discussions we've had over the years and my own personal experience, it seems that for relaxed cruising under five miles, most people can get away with almost anything, but for ANYTHING else, a saddle has to fit, whether your idea of a long ride is 30 miles or 300K, and whether your idea of a hard pace is 15 mph or 25.

It's true that your riding position affects what part of your sitbones contact the saddle. That's why when I made my butt-print, I circled the whole shape of my sit bones, and take the print with me saddle shopping so I can lay it over various saddles.

With a 110mm width, you may very well fit on an uncovered carbon saddle. Do you know anyone that has one that you could try, maybe? Or is there a shop with a SI test center near you? (or have you already eliminated SI's entire line?)

"I think what we were all trying to say is that if a saddle doesn't fit, then it's never going to be right, no matter what kind of riding you do or how short your rides."

No disagreement here, as only i have my own 'filtering list' in finding a what could be correct saddle approach then the well just try it approach.

"but for ANYTHING else, a saddle has to fit, whether your idea of a long ride is 30 miles or 300K, and whether your idea of a hard pace is 15 mph or 25."

Again i agree, but the point is when reading reply's from other people about saddles when one does not tell what there time spend in the saddle is or the milage they do then you get a disappointing experience just by the not given information. That's my point. When somebody spend about the same time in the saddle as the person that's looking for a saddle than there is a good change the saddle choice might work well.

Sadly i have no other options to test a hard uncovered carbon based saddle like the smp or so.

But than again a new day new options :)

Who knows what tomorrow will bring ...

+1 on the San Marco Glamour Aspide. I have one on each of my road bikes. It's so minimal that it's hard to think it can be comfortable, but I absolutely cannot ride on anything else. Cutouts kill me and forget about any gel or padding. I also wear minimal shammy - ie: Castelli Kiss or a tri-type short with small/think shammy.

I'm not saying this is for everyone! Each butt is different! :D

After giving the rolls a try it failed due to the contact with the girlie bits.

In my search i finally came on a site where there was many good review from tri riders and knowing that they are in a almost impossible ride position it got my attention.

To make a long story short i got myself this one the ISM Breakaway
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z..._breakaway.jpg

After a 60 mile ride today i can only conclude that regarding the girlie bits this is fantastic. NO pain whatsoever. The large 'hole' really does the trick.

However there is a price to pay as always. Now all the pressure comes to the sit-bones and it was something i could really feel today however this is something that must get used to and it will no doubt eventually.

So my biggest complain has been solved regarding my girlie bits and now the focus is on some fine-tuning the saddle and see/feel if the ride can be as comfortable as possible.

And yes the saddle is hard although one can indeed press with the thumbs a little bit in the saddle, but make no mistake that it is hard on the sit-bones when riding.

So far so good.

Cool. I almost went that route and know a ton of people that love those. They all say the same thing, your butt will feel it but will get used to it. Keep us posted.