Shifting challenged...bar-ends that is

I can shift my lovely LHT just fine on the trainer...but of course that isn't where it matters. When I am actually riding I can't get my hands there. My arms are not stiff, elbows are relaxed. I do notice a lot of tension in my neck/shoulders, and I can slowly move my hands over the tops without the bike getting too wobbly. As soon as I try to move a hand to the shifters though, well let's just say it doesn't work. My steering gets very unstable and I am all over the road and still never get there - the shifters are below my knees at this point :eek:

I am beginning to wonder how much of this is a fit issue - perhaps handlebars too low - and how much is newbie hanging onto the bars for dear life without realizing it. It is my back and shoulders that I notice the most tension. My hands are fine - not painful, which tells me that I am probably not hanging on for dear life - my hands are quick to hurt if I do something like that.

I am getting closer and closer to telling them to replace my bars with something like this and XT trigger shifters, housing, and of course new brake levers would be needed (and sell my existing Salsa bar and brake levers). It looks to me like this bar allows more than one hand position, but will allow me my beloved trigger shifters... I've already been told that this is less expensive than moving to STI shifters (which I don't know either) and it has the added benefit to be a system I am already comfortable with.

Right now I am just frustrated, and I am not going to make a snap decision while frustrated. I love the bike. I love how Sully rides/feels/looks - it is just the shifting thing.

Sorry for being so vocal on this, but has anyone else experienced this? If so, how did you deal with it? Am I just being impatient? I have 60 miles on my new bike now and am no closer to being able to shift it than when I first brought it home...

When you're on the trainer, practice moving your hand down to the lower part of the bar near the shifter. Then feel the shifter with the palm of your hand. It's now uncommon for me to shift with my hand on the lower part of the bars. There ARE drop bars with less "drop" (the bottoms are closer to the top). That might help - but I really think this is something you can get used to. I just checked my position on the bike, and when the cranks are level, (not at the top of the stroke - mid range), the shifters are below my knee.

Good luck!

I'm not too keen on barcon shifters either.I may have the solution to your problem.
Take a look at these.

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Originally Posted by Zen

I'm not too keen on barcon shifters either.I may have the solution to your problem.
Take a look at these.

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These look like the same kind of thing as Pauls Thumbies, is that correct? I am also considering this route. It certainly is the least expensive route and people keep telling me that they are very adjustable as far as where they go on road bars to make them the most comfortable for me.

Thanks Zen!

I have Thumbies + Shimano bar-end shifters on my mixte and love love love them. I'm not using drop bars on there, but was nervous about shifting my hands to barcons when I'm trying to balance the bike with the bobike kid seat and follow-me tandem on the back. I didn't want grip or trigger shifters for aesthetic reasons. They've proven to be the perfect solution and work beautifully. The Falcons from Velo Orange look like an even more affordable way of doing it if you don't mind not having indexed shifting (which I know some people prefer anyway!)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3616/...59f0f3d1_m.jpg

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Originally Posted by Catrin

Am I just being impatient?

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Maybe. :) Drops are wonderful in terms of hand positions longer term - on the drops when into the wind, on the tops when cruising around, hoods in traffic etc. And they can sneak through narrow spots in traffic that flat bars won't, so I think you're right not to rush it, even if it's frustrating.

Can you get to somewhere quiet to practice, like an outdoor (flattish) velodrome, empty supermarket car park or similar? Then you can just cruise along quietly without worrying about traffic, moving your hand back and forth. Riding one-handed is one of many skills you'll conquer as you reach for your bidon, unpeel bananas and onwards to your victory salute. ;) When I first got cleats I went down the velo and just clipped/unclipped for a while. It can take more than 60 miles to get comfy. Good luck.

I had a general thought...

You're trying to learn and integrate an AWFUL LOT of physical skills all at once, and while they will come, it will take time.

How long did it take you to learn to drive? And I don't mean just well enough to complete whatever behind-the-wheel was needed to take a driver's test in your state. I mean until all the physical skills became automatic, and you weren't constantly thinking with your conscious mind "move foot to brake, move foot to clutch, step on gas ge-e-e-e-ntly [NO! MORE GENTLY! YIKES!], move hand to turn signal lever, check rear view mirror, check side view mirror....." On a bicycle, you're using more parts of your body than you do when you're driving, plus you have to balance, too.

Nearly all of us learned to ride bicycles as children ... on platform pedals, on single-speeds or at most bikes with internal hubs and thumb shifters that we didn't even use until we were completely confident just riding the things. And, not least, at a time in our lives when we were lower to the ground, lighter, much more resilient, and accustomed to falling because of our still-developing motor control. So we can offer suggestions about the individual component skills, especially the ones we learned as adults like clipping/unclipping, or shifting with various types of shifters. But I don't think any of us - including, it seems to me, your trainer - really, fully appreciates the effort it must be for you to put it all together, all at once.

As frustrating as it must be for you, I think the best and safest thing is more time and miles in the park. You'll get there.

You might need shallower drops. I'd suggest you practice riding in the drops because once there, the bar end shifters are extremely convenient. And the drops are the place to be for stability on long downhills and provide a more powerful braking position. Start by riding on the hoods and lower your back/shoulders. Then you should be able to move your hands one at a time, without moving your back, to the position just below the brake levers. It may take some practice before you're comfortable there. After that feels comfortable, start moving your hands further back along the drops until eventually you can ride comfortable with your hands near the ends of the drops and the shifters. Of course if the bars are too large or too deep or too far forward or too far down, none of this will be comfortable until you get the right fit. You also need the correct saddle setback so you are balanced over the pedals without undo weight on your arms.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

I had a general thought...

You're trying to learn and integrate an AWFUL LOT of physical skills all at once, and while they will come, it will take time.... But I don't think any of us - including, it seems to me, your trainer - really, fully appreciates the effort it must be for you to put it all together, all at once.

As frustrating as it must be for you, I think the best and safest thing is more time and miles in the park. You'll get there.

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This is a very good point, and I thought about it last night after I shut the computer down. On my Trek I am already riding country roads (and shifting, etc isn't a problem), but the touring bike does present different things to learn physically. Between the two bikes I only have 200 miles under my belt! Thankfully I will have much more time now to ride more consistently during the week instead of once every week and a half - that has got to help.

I still think that I will have the shifters moved to the top of my bars, but will hold off on changing everything else :eek:

Good point there about my trainer. As good as he is, and he is also a very avid mountain biker - but he has been riding since age 5 so that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by DebW

You might need shallower drops. I'd suggest you practice riding in the drops because once there, the bar end shifters are extremely convenient. And the drops are the place to be for stability on long downhills and provide a more powerful braking position. Start by riding on the hoods and lower your back/shoulders. ... You also need the correct saddle setback so you are balanced over the pedals without undo weight on your arms.

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I am not even attempting the drops right now, even on the trainer it is way too uncomfortable to get down that low and there are saddle issues in that position as well. I am just waiting to get the bare minimum of miles on this bike to get a full fitting done - the LBS I am going to requires a min. 150 miles before this - but then the fit is guaranteed for the life of the bike.

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Originally Posted by oz rider

....Can you get to somewhere quiet to practice, like an outdoor (flattish) velodrome, empty supermarket car park or similar? Then you can just cruise along quietly without worrying about traffic, moving your hand back and forth. Riding one-handed is one of many skills you'll conquer as you reach for your bidon, unpeel bananas and onwards to your victory salute. ;) When I first got cleats I went down the velo and just clipped/unclipped for a while. It can take more than 60 miles to get comfy. Good luck.

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This is a good idea - we do have a local velodrome and will check about gaining access to it. Parking lots in my area tend to be busy - and the empty ones are in less than good shape. My park has a lot of food/bike traffic, and to get serious about both shifting and starting practice it would probably be best to not have any other distractions.

Thankfully I can still road ride with my Trek :) Ok, country roads, but still roads! After that the park just seems so.....confining :rolleyes:

Thanks to all for your great advice and ideas!

I'm sorry but I'm confused. What kind of handlebars/shifters do you have now?

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Originally Posted by ny biker

I'm sorry but I'm confused. What kind of handlebars/shifters do you have now?

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This is understandable as I have two bikes and two different kinds of shifters :)

My Trek has mountain bars/trigger shifters (no problem here - and am already riding country roads)

My LHT has road bars with bar-end shifters - the shifters here are what I am having problems with.

No one can say that I am afraid of trying new things :p I don't regret getting the second bike - I love it - just trying to get over this shifting problem. I like Zens solution and am strongly considering it.

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Originally Posted by Catrin

I am not even attempting the drops right now, even on the trainer it is way too uncomfortable to get down that low and there are saddle issues in that position as well. I am just waiting to get the bare minimum of miles on this bike to get a full fitting done - the LBS I am going to requires a min. 150 miles before this - but then the fit is guaranteed for the life of the bike.

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My thought: Don't make a judgement on the shifting until you get the fit right. If you aren't comfortable holding in the drops it's obvious why you'd be uncomfortable shifting down there.

Sounds like you have some pretty significant bar positioning/fit issues to work through and they are ABSOLUTELY effecting your comfort and ability to shift, no question.

Focusing on using your core (abs) to hold your body up on the bike (rather than your arms) will help in the long-run, especially if your goal is a lower/more aero position. But it does sound like your bars are too low and potentially too far out in front of you, especially for right now.

One thing you could potentially do is work on "moving" on the bike on the Trek you are more comfortable with. Ride one handed (both sides), try no handed, one handed and lean/bend over to reach something, reach for bottles, reach for imaginary bar-end shifters, sit straight up and stretch (that's way more advanced than it sounds, don't try to do that all at once!), etc. Balancing a bike while doing these things is a learned skill, and it's by no means easy.

You'll have to practice again when you transfer to the LHT because the bikes will handle differently, but you'll be more confident and it will come easier if you can already do it on the Trek.

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Originally Posted by MartianDestiny

My thought: Don't make a judgement on the shifting until you get the fit right. If you aren't comfortable holding in the drops it's obvious why you'd be uncomfortable shifting down there.

Sounds like you have some pretty significant bar positioning/fit issues to work through and they are ABSOLUTELY effecting your comfort and ability to shift, no question.

Focusing on using your core (abs) to hold your body up on the bike (rather than your arms) will help in the long-run, especially if your goal is a lower/more aero position. But it does sound like your bars are too low and potentially too far out in front of you, especially for right now.

One thing you could potentially do is work on "moving" on the bike on the Trek you are more comfortable with. Ride one handed (both sides), try no handed, one handed and lean/bend over to reach something, reach for bottles, reach for imaginary bar-end shifters, sit straight up and stretch (that's way more advanced than it sounds, don't try to do that all at once!), etc. Balancing a bike while doing these things is a learned skill, and it's by no means easy.

You'll have to practice again when you transfer to the LHT because the bikes will handle differently, but you'll be more confident and it will come easier if you can already do it on the Trek.

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This makes perfect sense, and I have been wondering if the bars are just too low. I don't THINK they are too far away, I don't feel stretched or anything.

After reading your post, I got to thinking about it and realized that I am comfortable moving around on the LHT about the same amount as on the Trek. I should be practicing new movements on the bike I am most comfy with (and has been fit to me) than a bike with a different geometry that still needs fitting. Never thought about that in my "full steam ahead" normal fashion :o (must be part of that combined Carpatho Rusyn/Scottish ancestry)

So instead of focusing on one very specific movement, do more work on moving my hands/arms when safe to do so on my country roads. I need to do that anyway. Hopefully I can make some progress on this before my May 15th Traffic 101 class!

Still don't think I will fall in love with the shifters where they are, but you have given me more things to consider that I had not thought of - which is why I love TE :)

So I think I will spend more time on the Trek and get more used to moving around before I try those bar-ends again - get some trainer miles on the LHT (and practice shifting) and use it as a single-speed (off the trainer) for fun right now. There are some middle gears on that beautiful bike that I have found well on both hills and flats - so I don't have to mash gears or walk as much as I would have to if I tried that on the Trek

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Originally Posted by Catrin

So instead of focusing on one very specific movement, do more work on moving my hands/arms when safe to do so on my country roads. I need to do that anyway. Hopefully I can make some progress on this before my May 15th Traffic 101 class!

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Good idea. I used to practice all sorts of skills at the velodrome and I still try to focus on a skill every ride, whether it's cadence or pedalling action etc.

btw, I think it's good that your LBS requires a little bike time before fitting (although getting it in the ballpark first is good), but I wouldn't expect it to last the life of the bike. I know that a couple of stage-winning pros tweak their saddle height regularly so don't think you are stuck with it forever if it's not right. It changes with flexibility, injury, weight etc.

It's also a good idea after your fit to record all the measurements (you might even be able to get the shop to do it while you're there). Park Tools has a nice chart for this. So if a saddle slips or the bike is damaged or you change components, you have the data.

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Originally Posted by oz rider

Good idea. I used to practice all sorts of skills at the velodrome and I still try to focus on a skill every ride, whether it's cadence or pedalling action etc.

btw, I think it's good that your LBS requires a little bike time before fitting (although getting it in the ballpark first is good), but I wouldn't expect it to last the life of the bike. I know that a couple of stage-winning pros tweak their saddle height regularly so don't think you are stuck with it forever if it's not right. It changes with flexibility, injury, weight etc.

It's also a good idea after your fit to record all the measurements (you might even be able to get the shop to do it while you're there). Park Tools has a nice chart for this. So if a saddle slips or the bike is damaged or you change components, you have the data.

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They do record everything, and swear that if any changes need to be made for any reason whatsoever that there will never be a charge to "tweak" the fitting as needed. Can't beat that! I suspect this is the reason behind the mileage requirement.

My other LBS did a fitting on my Trek, but they were too busy to do much with the new bike other than apply measurements from the earlier fitting. This did not, and does not, make sense to me as the two bikes have very different geometry. The fitter there insisted that I do not need a fitting with the LHT - and it seems apparent that it is needed. So I won't argue with him, I just won't use their fitting services again.

I found out the Velodrome open track hours - I just might check this out if I can find a time when they are not busy.

My LHT went to the LBS today for his 30-day free tune-up. I mentioned the problems I am having with steering when I start moving my hands around to one of the mechanics. He knows that I am a very new rider - he thought the very short stem a large contributing factor.

Thankfully the other LBS isn't making me wait to do a full fitting - so this coming week will put in the work order to order the parts needed to move my shifters to the top of the bars, and schedule the fitting after that is done. I just do not see myself ever liking where those bar-end shifters are - so while I am keeping them - will move them before the fitting so everything can be worked with at the same time.

It is only $100 for parts/labor - and shifting is important enough that it seems a no-brainer to go ahead and do it. Interestingly enough, my original LBS would have charged me much more for the same job - and this other LBS is very familiar with Surly bikes - which is a plus!