A bit of a rant

OK, I am in the unusual position of being annoyed at some fellow cyclists. It makes me feel guilty, but I have to vent. I went to return some books at the library in the next town, in my car. This involves going up Strawberry Hill Rd., a curvy hill that is a very popular route for riders. Early Sunday morning, i expect to be on the outlook for riders and I was. Passed one respectful gentleman who sprinted up the steepest part of the hill, to let me pass. As I was over the top, slowing to a stop at the next cross street, there was a group (15 or so) riders ahead. They were spread out across the road. Since we all had to stop, this didn't bother me, since the road is also beat up here and pot holed, from recent rains. But, as I was stopping, they sort of spread out through and across the intersection. I was going straight and had to pull up, to check for cars on the cross street. The leader was riding around in circles, talking and they all looked clueless, many of them refusing to put a foot down. A couple went right, the majority went left. There were a few cars behind me. I didn't say anything, but what started out as a situation where I was ready to wait, give them time to cross the intersection or turn, turned into a situation where I really didn't know what they were doing. No one signaled or even looked back at me to say, "thanks for waiting, hold on a sec."
I returned my books and was headed to a different shopping area, when I saw the same group, going up the street I was on in the other direction. They were still riding 3-4 abreast on this road. There weren't any cars right behind, but they were approaching quickly.
This really annoys me. The new law here says you can ride 2 abreast if you are not impeding traffic. When I lead rides, I still keep everyone single file, except on the most rural of roads. These are busy suburban roads. Am I an antiquated old person?

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Originally Posted by Crankin

Am I an antiquated old person?

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Not in my book, but you're not much older than I am. ;) Rant away.

On the rare occasion when I find myself part of a group like that, I do my best to ask them to be considerate of the traffic behind us, not that it ever does any good.

No, you're not an antiquated old person.

I get grumpy, too. There are several very popular bike routes near me. I always watch for bikes when driving. I watch them blow through 4-way stops, forcing cars to slam on their brakes, flipping off drivers who honk; and I think "Thanks, a**holes, for making the rest of us look bad."

These (rightfully) p.o.'ed drivers are the ones I will have to cope with when I ride my commute.

I do my best to be a Good Will Ambassador when I ride, because weekend-warrior BS like what you saw leaves the rest of us with a real uphill battle for recognition.

Crankin, there's a strange dynamic that occurs the bigger the group gets. While individually polite, the 'herd' becomes internally focused and outside influences become less important.

I'm frustrated by the same thing and tend to be the one calling to the group to stop being so rude...

Age has nothing to do with it. Think of how judgmental young people can be -- at least I was more judgmental when I was younger.

Quite a few cyclists are completely oblivious. The most striking thing about your post is that you find it unusual to be annoyed at fellow cyclists. If that's the case then you should count your blessings.

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Originally Posted by PamNY

Quite a few cyclists are completely oblivious. The most striking thing about your post is that you find it unusual to be annoyed at fellow cyclists. If that's the case then you should count your blessings.

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Seriously. I have gotten into the habit of avoiding the most popular trails around here because I'm tired of being mad at the idiots around me.

You are perfectly right. Those are the people that make motorists hate us all, and not want to share the road. Anyone who is so self-absorbed that they can't be bothered to try not to inconvenience others (on a bike, in the grocery store, .....) should try to put themselves in the other person's position.

That is an ideal way to promote a little road rage. No motorist is going to feel more kindly toward cyclists in general after an encounter like that. They make us all look bad.

Thanks for letting me vent. Yes, all I could think of was "these people are making me look bad for future situations." And Mr. S., you are correct about the group mentality. Even the group I ride with, which is a bunch of mostly 40+ year old riders who are very upstanding people have horrible habits when the group gets big. I have been known to yell, "Get in line," which I am sure makes me sound like the former teacher that I am.
Cycling is hugely popular here and has been for quite awhile. But, as the years go on, the groups get larger (although this one was not) and we get more groups coming out from the city, who are not as familiar with the roads. We are way past the time when my DH started riding, maybe 12 years ago, when he got bottles thrown at him and my 14 year old son was called a "fag" when he was out training. But, still. OK, my rant is over. I went on a challenging 28 mile ride, with about 2,000 feet of climbing, further to the west, with less cars. Saw plenty of cyclists, but they were mostly solo or in pairs. Nobody behaved badly.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Silver

Crankin, there's a strange dynamic that occurs the bigger the group gets. While individually polite, the 'herd' becomes internally focused and outside influences become less important.

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I think it depends on where you are too. Around here, the biggest problem I see is individual cyclists who don't follow the rules of the road and are therefore completely unpredictable. They make me nervous whether I am in my car or on my bike. Usually these are "utility" cyclists (I am one as well, so I am by no means bashing this category of cyclists) riding around downtown. Some of the shenanigans I regularly see people pull: riding on the sidewalk, riding on the wrong side of the road, randomly getting on and off the sidewalk, running red lights, and weaving in and out of traffic on both sides of the road. Not only do they make me uncomfortable sharing the road with them, they also make us all look bad! I can't say I have ever encountered a rude group, but maybe that's because there aren't as many groups riding in places I usually go.

True Jolt:

In LCI training, they teach us to be:

Courteous
Assertive
Visible
Predictable

The BikeLeague also suggests that group riders spread out in curvy, low visibility areas so motorists can pass one or two at a time without getting frustrated to a point of doing stupid stuff...

Jolt, that is exactly what I experience when driving in Lowell for my internship. Very scary. I know these people are riding because they have no other form of transportation, but when people are coming into the city for work, they look at the "utility" cyclists and lump us all together.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Silver

The BikeLeague also suggests that group riders spread out in curvy, low visibility areas so motorists can pass one or two at a time without getting frustrated to a point of doing stupid stuff...

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Spreading out is a good idea on the bike path, too. I often deal with family groups or groups of tourists who are in a slow-moving clump.

I am sympathetic to and very considerate of families, because kids in NYC don't have many safe places to bike. But most if the time it simply isn't necessary for a family to take up such a huge chunk of real estate.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Silver

The BikeLeague also suggests that group riders spread out in curvy, low visibility areas so motorists can pass one or two at a time without getting frustrated to a point of doing stupid stuff...

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I question the wisdom of this.... when I was a young teenager I was nearly run over by an 18 wheeler. I was riding with my parents. We were on a country road with a small shoulder. I was somewhat ahead of my parents. Said 18 wheeler pulls out and goes around my parents - does not look ahead to see me, pulls back in, also overcorrecting some to the right, putting him on a course to cream me. Something - don't know what, intuition? eyes in the back of my head? the sound of an 18 wheeler coming to destroy me? made me go off the road and into the grass. Saved my life.

I've noticed too many times where a driver does this - pulls around one cyclist, but then isn't looking for the one up the road a little. Unless you are very spread out - so there is a lot of room for the driver to pull in and drive some distance before he/she needs to pass again I think it may be better to stay together. Then at least the motorist has fewer choices about passing, even if it may be a little frustrating for him/her.

I agree with 7rider. Spreading out also means the driver has to be held up multiple times and make multiple passes, and gets progressively more frustrated with each one.

It's even more annoying for a cyclist to pull off than it is for a driver to do it... but just as a polite cager will pull off to allow a moto to pass on a road with short sight lines, polite cyclists should pull off when a cage is stuck behind us for a long time. Heck, it's the law in some states that you have to pull off if you're traveling below the speed limit in any vehicle and there are more than five cars behind you.

And as much as it annoys me (and as little as I'm likely to do it in real life except as a passive-aggressive type of road rage complete with exaggerated mime of frustration), I think that includes times when the cager HAS plenty of safe passing opportunities but refuses to take them. I live in terror of being rear-ended (no matter what type of vehicle I'm in or on), because it's the one type of wreck that I have the least control over - and when someone's tailgating me for long stretches and refusing to pass, if I'm by myself, I will do that just to get them out from behind me.

I also agree with Oak - I wouldn't want to be the umpteenth rider that driver has to pass..... if they are the frustrated kind of driver by that time they are really smoking.... better to get it over with all in one lump.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

I agree with 7rider. Spreading out also means the driver has to be held up multiple times and make multiple passes, and gets progressively more frustrated with each one.

It's even more annoying for a cyclist to pull off than it is for a driver to do it... but just as a polite cager will pull off to allow a moto to pass on a road with short sight lines, polite cyclists should pull off when a cage is stuck behind us for a long time. Heck, it's the law in some states that you have to pull off if you're traveling below the speed limit in any vehicle and there are more than five cars behind you.

And as much as it annoys me (and as little as I'm likely to do it in real life except as a passive-aggressive type of road rage complete with exaggerated mime of frustration), I think that includes times when the cager HAS plenty of safe passing opportunities but refuses to take them. I live in terror of being rear-ended (no matter what type of vehicle I'm in or on), because it's the one type of wreck that I have the least control over - and when someone's tailgating me for long stretches and refusing to pass, if I'm by myself, I will do that just to get them out from behind me.

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The rule we teach in this case is to "leave room for cars." The idea is to have a number of clusters of 12 to 20 riders, separated by a couple hundred yards of road space. Yes, drivers have to make multiple passes, but it's a lot easier for them, and safer, than trying to pass something like the peleton of the Tour de France... very much like trying to pass a freight train on a narrow 2-land road.

It's also better to keep the groups together, in a pack, rather than having single riders or little groups of two and three scattered up and down the roadway 10 or 20 yards apart, leaving no real safe space to try and pass. That's what gets drivers jacked up more than anything other than filling the whole roadway like a swarm of bees. The advantage that we riders get from that is that the larger groups are more visible to others than the single riders putting along.

Riding no more than double file is the law in most states. Arkansas is one of those that doesn't address riding abreast, thus single file is technically the law here. You can generally get by with riding 2 abreast, though.

I've taught the LAB Group Riding Skills clinic for about three years now, and it's amazing how 30 to 50-year-old cyclists have trouble with simple arithmetic and counting... as witnessed by how many times I've had to pull the class over to the side of the road for a quick Teachable Moment that starts with the question, "Okay guys... Some one please tell me, how many is Two?"

;->

Tom
LCI-1853M

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Originally Posted by PscyclePath

The idea is to have a number of clusters of 12 to 20 riders, separated by a couple hundred yards of road space.

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Okay, I think that's the part that got elided originally.

I almost NEVER ride in a group of more than 15. The strategy of "multiple clumps" makes sense for big organized tours like RAGBRAI or TOSRV, or for these ginormous club rides they have in some places. Not so much in our more rural club rides or flash mobs.

I think what I and the others were picturing from the original post was "two riders," [pass] "three riders," [wait for another passing opportunity] "two riders," [pass again] and so forth.

I TOTALLY agree that 3,500 riders in a line 40 miles long, like they get on TOSRV, makes no one happy.


ETA: whoops, I re-read Mr.S's post, and he did say one or two riders together. I stand by what I said, don't think that's safe or wise.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Okay, I think that's the part that got elided originally.

I almost NEVER ride in a group of more than 15. The strategy of "multiple clumps" makes sense for big organized tours like RAGBRAI or TOSRV, or for these ginormous club rides they have in some places. Not so much in our more rural club rides or flash mobs.

I think what I and the others were picturing from the original post was "two riders," [pass] "three riders," [wait for another passing opportunity] "two riders," [pass again] and so forth.

I TOTALLY agree that 3,500 riders in a line 40 miles long, like they get on TOSRV, makes no one happy.

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Yep... we're on the same page now. My local club seems to have the same attitude, where a "group ride" is out little pack of a dozen or two folks out along the same three or four mile stretch of road, devil take the hindmost ;-)

Sometimes makes me wonder why they're called "group rides"...

I ride Critical Mass in my city and even when we have a large group we ride in groups of two, side by side - in one lane. We use hand signals. Shout our intent too, if the group is large enough. I'm in my 30's - and so are alot of my regular Crit. Mass buddies. Most cars are annoyed no matter how well we follow traffic rules - and honk - flip the bird - or shout other offensive things. It's frustrating, but we never respond. Act normal, and try to maintain formation. We do our best. :)

Wow, this has taken a life of its own. The group that I originally wrote about wasn't even in a line. They were clumped up and riding aimlessly back and forth around the stop sign at a somewhat dangerous (poor sight lines) and busy intersection. Picture a narrow country road that has houses, lots of curves, and a hill. The intersection is at the top of the hill, a bit after the crest. It would have been easier to try and pass a whole long line of riders than to figure out what these guys were doing.
Strangley, I got an email from my group this morning, stating they have been working on a policy that covers a lot of the issues discussed here. I gave my comments in an email and now I wonder if they will use my name :eek:.

but part of the gettiing them to pass you if you are riding in a group is the responsibility of the last person in the group to look well ahead up the road and if possible, signal if when it is safe for the car to pull out and pass.It's equally rude to leave the auto hanging out behind you with no indication of whether the group is slowing, or if it is possibly safe to pull out. If the car is signaled that it is safe, and they start to pull out and then drop back, there should be no exasperation or anger since the bikers know nothing of the skills or abilities of the driver or the pick up of the car. It is also important to remember that although the car may be faster, it is not as maneuverable as a bike and as a biker you need to make sure that there is a whole lot of room.

marni

You know what annoys me? The word cager.

Karen

Cyclists like those you describe irritate me too. Last year DH and I were out riding, and had a couple of cyclists blow through a 4 way stop about 1/2 mile ahead of us cutting off a car that was turning. They then proceeded to ride down the center of the road (2 lane).

I was so pissed, I took off after the cyclists. I planned to tell them how bad their behavior makes it on the rest of us. When I finally caught them at a light I was so winded I couldn't say anything! :D

DH and I still laugh about that.

They took off and that was that. I try to do what Knotted Yet does, be a goodwill ambassador on a bike. A couple of years ago I read an article in Bicycling by Bill Strickland that convinced me that's the best way to ride. Not always easy but smart.

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Originally Posted by Tuckervill

You know what annoys me? The word cager.

Karen

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I'm not familiar with the term...what does it mean?

OK, I looked it up...I'll introduce a new term for those of us who commute with the top down -

hottubber.

I'll assure you that with the top down and the wind in my hair, I'm in anything but a cage!;) :DBwahahahahah!:D

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Originally Posted by marni

but part of the gettiing them to pass you if you are riding in a group is the responsibility of the last person in the group to look well ahead up the road and if possible, signal if when it is safe for the car to pull out and pass.It's equally rude to leave the auto hanging out behind you with no indication of whether the group is slowing, or if it is possibly safe to pull out.

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I'm not going to assume the liability of waving a driver around. One of things I was taught in defensive driving is that you can be held liable if you wave another motorist through and an accident ensues (at least in my state). Any legal eagle types know if this is accurate elsewhere?

I do signals to cars behind me when there is oncoming traffic and they should hold back. Most of them seem very appreciative.

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Originally Posted by Tuckervill

You know what annoys me? The word cager.

Karen

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I'm not a fan either. As much as it's true that being in the car sometimes does feel like being in a cage, the term seems to encourage an "us vs. them" mentality rather than respectfully SHARING the road with one another.

Crankin' - I know that exact intersection (very well). This winter, I had the same experience you described, but I was ON MY BIKE! And guess what? They still didn't move - spread across the entire intersection, and I had to go into the opposite lane to make my right hand turn around them.

BTW - I hope there weren't any NEBC jerseys in that group ;).

SheFly

No NEBC jerseys or CRW... and I was glad of that.
They were green and blue jerseys, with some black. Not sure which club this is; Metrowest Bike Club?