Almost went over someone's trunk!

So today a friend and I are doing the South Lake Washington loop in Seattle and we're riding along on Seward Park Avenue (or Street, not quite sure). This is a street where the speed limit is like 25 and there's tons of stop signs. So we come up to a stop sign, and there's like 8 cars waiting. Initially, I was just going to hang back, but there was plenty of shoulder so I started creeping up, and I get in front of this Silver Toyota Corolla right as we're getting up to the stop sign. I figured we both could go at the same time, since by the time I would have got going again she'd be ahead of me. But apparently she was a little peeved that I had come from the back of the line, and in her opinion "cut in front." Even though this is what we're supposed to and can legally do as cyclists. So she revs her engine, speeds up in front of me, cuts over to the far right side of the road, blocking me, and slams on her brakes. I'm able to brake in time and avoid a collision. Her windows are down, so I yell "What you just did is illegal! Would you like me to call the cops on you Mrs. 653TTY (her license plate number)?" At which point she starts to stop again and then continues to go. I was so pissed I pulled over and called the cops, giving them the car make, model, license plate, as well as a description of the woman driving (30-40 year old black woman), and that she was traveling east on Seward Park Ave heading towards Rainier Ave. I'm hoping, if the car isn't stolen (this is the ghetto part of Seattle), they'll be able to find this ***** and do something. I would totally follow through and press charges or whatever if that was possible (maybe reckless endangerment?). So we'll see if I hear anything further.

-Jessica

Ummm... I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but passing on the right is illegal. If there isn't a designated bike lane all the way through the intersection (deviating for right turn lanes), you are meant to get in line behind the vehicles who got to the intersection before you. Whether they are bikes or cars or motorcycles or trucks. First come, first served. I've only ridden that route once, but as I recall there isn't a designated bike lane.

Of course, what she did is also illegal. And damn near assault.

Sorry.

That's the sort of maneuver that that doctor did that nearly cost 2 cyclists their lives. He's going to rot in prison for a while. I hope the authorities in your area take this seriously. And I'm glad you're OK.

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Originally Posted by KnottedYet

Ummm... I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but passing on the right is illegal. If there isn't a designated bike lane all the way through the intersection (deviating for right turn lanes), you are meant to get in line behind the vehicles who got to the intersection before you. Whether they are bikes or cars or motorcycles or trucks. First come, first served. I've only ridden that route once, but as I recall there isn't a designated bike lane.

Of course, what she did is also illegal. And damn near assault.

Sorry.

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I didn't know that. There's a shoulder with a thick white line that I was riding in (not sure, but I think it is designated for cyclists?) after the stop sign, I think it turns in to a regular road though.

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Originally Posted by XMcShiftersonX

I didn't know that. There's a shoulder with a thick white line that I was riding in (not sure, but I think it is designated for cyclists?) after the stop sign, I think it turns in to a regular road though.

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I dunno if that was a bike lane or not. Bike lanes around here usually turn to dotted lines and/or fade off before intersections to force cyclists to take the lane and their place in line. If your intersection was poorly marked, that's something you could bring up to the DOT and the cops. You might save other cyclists from a very bad situation if you do bring it up!

If there is a shoulder it isn't illegal for you as a bicycle to pass on the right, even if it is not a marked bike lane, but it is considered to be questionable etiquette. (and it can be dangerous... if you come up on someone's right and they aren't looking for you, you can easily get right hooked) If it is just a stop sign I generally just get in line and wait (and I expect my space to be honored too - so no pulling up beside me thank you very much), but if it is constant heavy traffic I will happily pass.

In any case what you may have done or not done is totally irrelevant. Even if you had done something patently illegal, she had no right to try to hurt you.

IMHO, that wasn't just near assault - it was assault. You don't have to be successful for an assault to occur - pretty much you just have to threaten, so trying to hit someone with a baseball bat is just as chargeable as actually doing it. Unfortunately you can get away with many things if you are driving a car that you would never be able to do in other situations.

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Originally Posted by Eden

If there is a shoulder it isn't illegal for you as a bicycle to pass on the right, even if it is not a marked bike lane, but it is considered to be questionable etiquette. (and it can be dangerous... if you come up on someone's right and they aren't looking for you, you can easily get right hooked) If it is just a stop sign I generally just get in line and wait (and I expect my space to be honored too - so no pulling up beside me thank you very much), but if it is constant heavy traffic I will happily pass.

In any case what you may have done or not done is totally irrelevant. Even if you had done something patently illegal, she had no right to try to hurt you.

IMHO, that wasn't just near assault - it was assault. You don't have to be successful for an assault to occur - pretty much you just have to threaten, so trying to hit someone with a baseball bat is just as chargeable as actually doing it. Unfortunately you can get away with many things if you are driving a car that you would never be able to do in other situations.

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That is true. I think cars and cyclists generally need to make their own safety calls when passing. I'm a cautious rider and I try to avoid dangerous maneuvers especially in high traffic areas. I do all the recommended things, like be predictable, etc. Like I said, I was in the shoulder when I was passing and I moved up to an area where there was actually an indent for buses because I thought that was safer than being in the shoulder at the back of the line (because cars generally do get next to you when you're in the shoulder). The cars were not moving when I was passing them. I also made it a point to stop passing cars when I could see the cars in front of me started moving forward and I would get stuck either on their side or tail end where they couldn't see me. I stopped when I was in front of this silver car because I felt my visibility to her was best. She didn't have her turn signal on and I was off to the side, so I was in no way impeding her movement, which is why I don't get her reaction. I think it's probably obvious that she is just another driver who doesn't think bikes should be on the road because it slows her down and she decided to take it out on me. When in actuality if I was in a car instead I would be slowing her down even more! But most people that react this way generally aren't smart enough to put two and two together anyways! :D

Anyways, thanks everyone for your support.

-Jessica

Regardless of that woman getting mad and her dangerous aggressive actions....

When you are in the right shoulder, passing on the right a line of cars stopped for a light or a stop sign, you are putting yourself in real danger. You are creeping along in every driver's blind spot, one after another, and they are all about to start moving and are looking forward- they are not watching for something to suddenly cut in front of them from the right shoulder of the road behind them.
Please read "The Red Light of Death":
http://bicyclesafe.com/

Is getting a head of a few extra cars at a stop light worth giving up your life for? Something to think about.

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Originally Posted by XMcShiftersonX

I didn't know that. There's a shoulder with a thick white line that I was riding in (not sure, but I think it is designated for cyclists?) after the stop sign, I think it turns in to a regular road though.

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Yep... Two of the Primary principles of safe cycling are to be visible, and be predictable... which means not putting yourself in a place of position where drivers don't expect to see other traffic. Most folks don't expect anyone to pass them on the right when they're at a traffic signal or stop sign, so it's really, really bad juju, as well as bad manners to "filter" up to the front of the line like that. Most drivers won't be checking to their right, and with right-turn-on-red-after-stop the rule, if not a God-given right in most places, it's not at all uncommon for a driver to turn right into you, or in front of you.

So don't put yourself in those bad places... get in line with the cars, and take your turn with everyone else.

Sorry you feel that way about my neighborhood. Most people here are not driving stolen cars believe it or not. Since you brought it up, I find that african american drivers are generally more patient and polite than white ones.
I must say I am impressed that you got her license plates!!!

I have to disagree with any blanket statements about passing on the right. IMO not only every intersection is different, but every set of traffic conditions at any individual intersection.

In Washington, the statute governing passing on the right is pretty similar to the states I'm familiar with. It is legal under the described conditions, although obviously it may not always be safe.

Unless you're taking the lane while traveling, you're going to have to cut in front of a car to take the lane at a stoplight, whether it's the first car in line you're cutting in front of, or the tenth. From the way the OP described the behavior of the motorist, she likely would've done the same thing regardless of where in the line she was stopped.

Another thing to remember - not relevant to the OP but to some of the comments - is that "hook" collisions, whether right or left, are almost always preventable if you're paying attention to the traffic around you. Right hooks can and do happen more often in green-light situations than in starting from a red. If you're about to be right-hooked, then turn right along with the car on your left. We may have the right-of-way, but there's really no excuse for not paying attention to the vehicles on your left, or for riding in traffic too fast to react.

And by that statute, passing on the right of cars stopped legally in a single lane waiting their turn to go through an intersection is illegal.

If there is another vehicle lane, it's ok. A bike lane is a vehicle lane.

If you wouldn't do it in a car, don't do it on a bike here in Washington. I've known folks who got tickets because they thought bicycles followed a different set of rules than all the other vehicles on the road. Washington cops are not shy about giving cyclists traffic tickets! :eek:

Seattle Traffic Code section 11.44.020 "Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to a driver of a verhicle..."

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Originally Posted by Biciclista

Sorry you feel that way about my neighborhood. Most people here are not driving stolen cars believe it or not. Since you brought it up, I find that african american drivers are generally more patient and polite than white ones.
I must say I am impressed that you got her license plates!!!

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South Seattle is an interesting area. You'll have a nice neighborhood, right next to the ghetto area where there are frequently people shot. It's the same thing everytime I ride through that particular intersection when you turn on to Rainier, people always drive recklessly next to me because I'm on a bike, and one time we even had a lady get out of her car and come up to my husband and I in our car, accusing us of stopping in the middle of a street when we did nothing of the sort, it was very bizarre. This bike incident took place at the last stop sign before you turn on to Rainier, and that's what I would consider as one of the most dangerous parts of Seattle. And by the way, I was bringing up her race as a fact of her description, not a blanket statement about black people and driving. Also, I got her license plate because that's how close I came to hitting it!

We discussed this a bit on the Cascade board and the consensus was that as bicycles are legally allowed to travel on a shoulder, when a shoulder exists it is a de facto travel lane for bicycles, therefore as a bicycle if you are traveling on the shoulder you may pass on the right under certain conditions.

RCW 46.61.770
Riding on roadways and bicycle paths.
A person operating a bicycle upon a roadway may use the shoulder of the roadway or any specially designated bicycle lane if such exists.


I won't argue that what is technically legal is always the smartest thing to do, and moving up a few spots at stop signs is a) likely to antagonize motorists and b) make it more likely that you will be hit, so I don't recommend it. Now if there is a lot of standing traffic and you can travel on the shoulder for a long distance, go for it. There are perks to riding a bike and increased mobility is one of them.

One of my favorite biking sayings is
"Just because you have the right of way doesn't mean someone is going to give it to you."
And as Eden said, just because it's legal to ride on your bike in a particular place, lane, or manner doesn't mean that's the smart and safe thing to do.
Because we as cyclists are the ones who will always lose in any car/bike collision, we must use our judgment to ride defensively and keep ourselves out of dangerous traffic situations, regardless of who has the right of way or the law on their side. Sadly, many dead cyclists had the right of way and were riding in a legal bike lane.

If I am going to be going straight (or left) in an intersection, I will never be on the right side of the road as I approach it, regardless of whether there is a bike lane along the right shoulder.

Let's get back to the point of the story. This story wasn't about the rules of the road, because I actually was behaving legally (sorry I was incorrectly informed by the second post, but after looking up the laws, which by the way are very vague, I realized I did nothing wrong.). I was traveling in the shoulder as my own lane and obeying the rules of the road. I also made the judgment call and behaved safely, when I made it a point to get in front of the driver, on the shoulder, so that I was visible. She clearly saw me, but she also clearly tried to intimidate and hurt me with her vehicle. That's not acceptable. And that was the point of the story. This is what happens to cyclists everyday. This is the type of behavior that gets people killed or injured, it's called road rage. A lot of people think they own the roads with their cars. This wasn't a situation where I was being careless and in someones blind spot and almost went over their trunk. No. Someone intentionally tried to make me crash. I'm quite frankly a little disappointed that so many people on this thread have the mindset that cyclists don't quite have the right to be on the road, that we should tiptoe around people in cars. Furthermore, in saying some of the things that have been said, there seems to be some blame placed on the cyclists for the actions of irrational drivers. This is the problem with the cycling community. I feel like we should support each other when there has been wrong doing. I'm not saying it's okay for us to be weaving in and out of traffic and riding erratically, and act like we own the road, this was hardly a situation like that (but there are certainly people who ride like that). But we do share the road, and motorists have a responsibility too. I drive, and I would never behave the way this lady did. I consider it my responsibility to look out for cyclists (as well as pedestrians, etc.), especially in the area I was in that has tons of cyclists. Riding on the road is dangerous no matter what, and we constantly have to make judgment calls about how to safely ride our bikes on them. But, this does not excuse the drivers that intentionally try to intimidate and hurt us everyday.

-Jessica

I completely agree. We did get a bit off topic at times with debating legality etc. Whether or not I think going to the front of the line at a stop is a good idea, the fact remains that the driver did not do something that would have been out of negligence, but rather did something quite intentional. As I said in my first post - I don't actually care what you did or did not do. You could have been doing something totally outrageous or illegal and it still does not excuse the driver for assaulting you. And yes, I do believe that trying to make a cyclist crash by using your car as a weapon is assault as much as taking a shot at them with a gun or swinging a baseball bat at them would be.

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Originally Posted by Eden

I completely agree. We did get a bit off topic at times with debating legality etc. Whether or not I think going to the front of the line at a stop is a good idea, the fact remains that the driver did not do something that would have been out of negligence, but rather did something quite intentional. As I said in my first post - I don't actually care what you did or did not do. You could have been doing something totally outrageous or illegal and it still does not excuse the driver for assaulting you. And yes, I do believe that trying to make a cyclist crash by using your car as a weapon is assault as much as taking a shot at them with a gun or swinging a baseball bat at them would be.

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+++++ yes ++++

I am looking at the two things separately.

What that woman did to you was a crime and put your life in danger- she should be arrested. No way do I condone what she did in any way.

The other part, about riding defensively, was about my concern for your safety in situations where you are riding along in blind spots, passing cars on their right, when you plan to go straight or left up ahead at the intersection. Intersections are perilous places. Cars are very unpredictable and the drivers so often do not see us when they go to make their turns. Yes, they should be more responsible about watching for bikes, but they often just aren't. Again though- nothing to do with that lady's road rage which was clearly wrong.

Well said Lisa.

This kind of stuff comes up all the time in two-wheeler forums, and it's always difficult to advocate safe, defensive riding without seeming like we're defending the cagers or blaming the victims.

The way I put it is an amalgam of a couple of popular sayings. You've got to ride like the 1% of cagers who see you at all, are aiming for you on purpose.

I still maintain that the OP did nothing that contributed to the situation she described, and that filtering on the right on a bici is sometimes, but not always, appropriate, safe and legal. (On a moto, it's sometimes, but not always, appropriate and safe. ;))

+2 to what Lisa said.

You'll note I never blamed the OP for the situation, either. But she can go right ahead and heap blame on me for diverting the thread.