Dismissed in business conversations?

Ladies (and gentlemen),

So, I am not terribly good at social events. I chose science as a career for a reason: I don't have to interact with people as much as in other fields. So, I am working for a small tech company in their remote office. They have some questionable practices, but are willing to let me pursue my PhD while remaining employed full time. As I mentioned, I am not good at schmoozing. Moreover, I think the company is a trifle dubious, so I stay out of most conversations. One would not say of me that I am aggressive on the career ladder at all. Our project manager came up from the main office about a month ago, and had his back turned to me while talking to others in the office. I walked up to join the conversation (it was about my project), and he kept his back turned to me. I don't really like him anymore. We have these 'consultants' I call them Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum (you know, just to my BF), and they are ... dumb, but good at getting grant funding. They too dismiss me. I figured it was because I didn't really want to be a part of things around here, and as long as they leave me alone, I am happy to leave them to their good - ol - boys club.

There are three people around here that have asked me to be a part of a new prospect. We got our first little bit of funding and went out to celebrate. The project manager in my current position knows about it -so it's not like we are sneaking around (but this is an aside). So, last night at dinner, the other three are men, and they all sat around with their heads together, and (literally) switched spots so they could all sit together. I sat with the wives. My bf sat with the other principles. I again felt left out and dismissed. I don't know what to do about this. I will say this: the other three (men) have known each other for some time, and they were well into starting this new enterprise without me. They needed a biochemist/molecular biologist, but I'm not sure all of them are stoke on adding another body to the ownership list. So, maybe that's it. Maybe it's just me...

How do you all handle situations like this? How do you (without being labeled a bee-otch) manage to participate in the good-ol-boys garbage? Should I just give up and let my good hands and mind speak for itself? Honestly, I don't care much about the business side of things. I like to do science and I like the idea of being a part owner in this company...

Thanks!

Ginny, every situation is different...but some get places through schmoozing (career polititians could never get a real job), others through technical competance, and others through a combination of the two.

Resolve the path that you want to succeed on. If you choose the technical path, you will likely always be experiencing what you note above, but that doesn't mean you can't have a career but rather that you may be happiest in a different situation.

Just my humble opinion...and I'm not a schmoozer but I am in an executive role in a company with a few hundred employees.

Thanks, Silver! I was hoping you would weigh in on this.

It seems to me that if you are a partner (whatever that means in your particular situation) on this new venture, you should be involved in the conversations. The fact that you sat with the wives tells me that you CHOSE to sit with the wives.

I tell myself constantly that I cannot change what other people do. But I can change my own actions. I'm finding that it's a good guide as I go through life.

It sounds like it would help to get to know them better. Try inviting each one to lunch individually. That would be an opportunity to get to know each other's backgrounds as well as discuss your ideas for the project, etc.

As a woman in the science field (M.S. Toxicology, PhD,Pharmacology/Toxicology and I work at Pacific Northwest Nat'l Labs), I strongly suspect your treatment by the 3 men on the new project is because you are a "technician" not because you are a woman. When you get your PhD you'll find things are very different. Even as a postdoc people will start asking for you input, if only to teach you something about what you know/don't know.
I also suspect the way you are treated is because they know that you think the "company has questionable practices" - believe me, they know. They probably think you are wrong/ignorant and that's why you feel that way.
You are a junior technician working toward a PhD. There is a very definite "class" distinction in the sciences - and class is defined by letters behind your name and years of experience. You've got neither. I suspect your attitude is known and your inexperience combined with that attitude have people's backs up.
That said, I have some amazing stories about being very badly treated by the "old guard", but most of those guys are gone now. (A man once announced that a meeting couldn't begin until the "token woman" showed up - I was sitting right there and he was referring to another woman on the team, I don't know if it's more offensive to be thought of as the token woman, or not even worthy of that!)

Ginny,

I work in sciences as well, and I really did my best to stay out of the gossip or the drama that went on in my last lab... and that worked against me in a lot of ways - because I was seen as uncooperative or unhelpful or just an isolated member of the lab... It meant that less people asked me for help or to collaborate, even though I'd've been fully willing to help - so being happy with just being left alone is not always the best strategy.

While it's nice to pretend that science is a place where you don't have to schmooze or interact with too many people, the reality is that especially in this current economic climate, collaboration and making contacts is really really important. You're in an industry type setting, so it might not mean as much to you now - but when you're trying to get grant funding, which labs you can say are going to help you with certain aspects of a project is critical, especially when it's a big name of an established lab. However many papers you can get your name on, is also critical. Now, if you have no problem publishing on your own and churning out papers on your own or getting grants on your own... then that's great and that will speak for itself... HOwever, it is getting harder to get published lately and it's harder to get grants lately, so every little bit helps.

so in a similar type situation to what happened at dinner the other night, you could have asked your boyfriend to switch seats with you so that you could "talk shop" too or something like that.

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Originally Posted by ginny

How do you all handle situations like this? How do you (without being labeled a bee-otch) manage to participate in the good-ol-boys garbage?

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Well, I never would have kept sitting with the wives while the men involved with the project I was going to be a part of were sitting aside discussing it.
You say they moved around so as to sit together to discuss the project. Well why didn't you move too in order to be part of it, instead of staying where you were? Were you waiting for them to invite you to join in? Did they each specifically invite each other to join in the discussion, or did they just say "Let's discuss it" and form a group to start talking? Perhaps they thought it was odd that you did not join them, maybe they felt you weren't that interested. I would have put myself in the action if I was interested in being in the project. My advice is to make things happen for yourself rather than wait for others to ask you to join in. Men are not the best at thinking of such things. ;)

I know and interact with many men in our town's social settings. There are two men in particular who are friends I like, but unfortunately they both have the habit of interrupting me and talking over me when we are in a group having social discussion. They don't do this to other men who are talking, they listen attentively to them, it's only to me, the woman who is present. The other men don't do it to me- it's a normal give and take conversation with them.
With these two men friends I have learned to politely and firmly say- "Just a moment, I'd like to finish what I was saying before you start that story.". They usually look slightly startled as though they hadn't realized they had cut me off. That usually takes care of it...until they return to their old habits the next week or so, at which time I simply repeat. :rolleyes: We have to not allow ourselves to be dismissed, even if the dismissing might be inadvertent, doesn't matter. In this world, we have to approve ourselves rather than waiting for others' approval. :)

I'm with Bleeker...

You have to assert yourself. I am like you, i hate all that stuff. But if you want to be part, you must TAKE part. You must get into the guy's face, don't let him keep his back to you, and GET their attention.

You do have some choices. Good luck.

yeah, you are all right. I honestly didn't quite realize what was going on when we switched seats... then it was too late... I know: excuses. Well, I figured it was good to get to know the wives too... until they started talking about potty training :eek:

As far as being seen as a technician. I thought the MS would overcome that, but alas, it has not. In terms of the current company; I am sure they realize I judge them on their not - quite - ethical decisions. They keep me around for political reasons, and I'm grateful at the moment. As far as the new company - it is ethical *phew*, and they actually respect me as an expert of I wouldn't be there.

I think getting to the three other partners well is a good idea (two of them and I are already friends - I think the third is irritated to have to split the pot another way). I also think that as I become more comfortable with them, they may see me more as someone with whom to discuss business.

As to staying out of lab gossip: I totally feel you! I have been accused of being a bad team player due to trying to stay out of the gossip and the drama. It's funny (and comforting) that we have all had similar experiences.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Silver

Ginny, every situation is different...but some get places through schmoozing (career polititians could never get a real job), others through technical competance, and others through a combination of the two.

Resolve the path that you want to succeed on. If you choose the technical path, you will likely always be experiencing what you note above, but that doesn't mean you can't have a career but rather that you may be happiest in a different situation.

Just my humble opinion...and I'm not a schmoozer but I am in an executive role in a company with a few hundred employees.

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Over the years, I had chats with guys (engineering background) and more individually (you will find out alot more) where they had to make a decision like what Mr. Silver described above: there is a point later in career path, where one ends up having to decide to be technically a "star" and remain on that path or move into the management side, which is what these guys are doing, when they are talking about setting up a business/major project/venture.

Meanwhile while you take time to make that decision (which will take several years), one does have to network across any organization that you work for, to be a "known" face in the firm, to understand the work you do/value you provide to the firm and to be on cross-functional teams (which these guys may refuse to acknowlege right now), be participating at those team meetings, etc.

Perhaps just maintaining a respectful working relationship with your project manager is best for now, while seek elsewhere in the firm for other guys that you can network, sit down have a coffee and talk about work, etc.

I have worked in several male dominant organizations where I found it best to know informally several different guys across an organization of different rank (junior to senior management) and develop those working relationships, find out about the meetings, etc.

Meanwhile publish, deliver talks,...and leave the firm soon. :p

Are you willing to take courses in business strategy development, marketing, project management, contracts negotiation to complement your scientific technical training?

Quit worrying about being called a *****. Do not deliberately act like one, sure, but don't worry about it, even if it happens.

I also suggest more assertive behaviour. And, by the way, it's never too late to change seat.

Good luck!

This is a "great" learning experience that sucks when you are experiencing it but you can (try to) comfort yourself with that you are learning a lesson now while you are in your PhD program. The more you learn now, the better off you will be later.

At least, that is what I keep telling myself. And I counter that with "If it doesn't kill me or put me in an institution first." or "better off doesn't mean much when there's so, so much else that is wrong." (The pessimistic side has subsided since I accepted the "real" job offer. And while I'm at it, can I discourage you from doing a postdoc unless you really really know what you are after? In fact I hope you have a really good idea of what you're going for with the PhD, and that it isn't a tenure track faculty position, because there are way more people who are very well qualified than there are jobs.)

Sorry, that was a digression. Anyway, this is an interesting conversation.

I agree, it sounds like this is a bad environment, and if you can extricate yourself sooner than later it would be best. Before you fall victim to the politics that are playing out. Trust me, it sucks to get kicked out of a lab. :(

Mel,

Um... I am guessing you have spent some time in academia / post docs? I totally agree. That's why I opted for the MS the first time around.

Nope, what I am really hoping is that we get lots of SBIR and STTR money and maybe some private money and make a new and cool company doing what I love with people I really like. I am SO stoked about the prospect of being involved in starting this new company. I am ever so stoked to have a long-term job prospect that I am creating for myself in a relatively small town. I hope we are successful (my advisor has a track record of being successful), and I hope that when we eventaully sell, the big company that buys us leaves us here. I know this sounds like a pipe-dream, but he (my advisor) did it once, so let's hope it works a second time.

Yes, I like the idea of making money on the prospect, but I REALLY like the idea of creating a niche for myself outside of academia and outside of a government lab. Mel, add that to your list of places not to go - except the CDC, they are pretty good. In the mean time, I suppose I have to learn how to be a grown up at some point (have I mentioned I'm 35!!!????):eek:

Coincidentally when this topic started up, I met up with my oldest niece for dinner who's in city for a business /techical conference for the mining sector. I'm proud of her. I've known her since she was a baby.

She will turn 25 yrs. Graduated with university degree in geological engineering. She's been working full time for a small consulting geological/geotechnical engineering firm and travels on biz on behalf for the firm all over North America. Has been doing it for past 2 yrs. She started biz travel young enough that she was underage to rent a car in any city where she was conducting business. She is bright quiet young woman who was never a tomboy yet never was really girly-girly either. (She does wear pink and lace at times but not at a mining conference :) ) She probably talks some engineering stuff with her boyfriend who is a civil engineer.

Maybe this was another feeling-excluded-in-predominantly-men situation but she would have had dinner by herself if I hadn't joined her. Apparently there were 4,000-6,000 people registered at this conference.

I asked her about having a biz dinner with a bunch of work-related guys at the conference. She said: It's a bunch of men in their 50's. :) LOL. Which means these guys are as old as her father, me, etc. LOL :rolleyes:

I'll have to remind her: if she is comfortable speaking with her boss, who is 60 and comfortable talking about work with my partner who is 66, then she'll be okay.

I think it's important to look at it this way: they're not men, they're people. We're all people. If you're focused on gender differences, how can you expect others to overlook them? Same for age. Who cares if someone is old enough to be your father or young enough to be your daughter? If you're colleagues, that's what is most important.

Maybe I've just had good experiences, but I've never noticed gender biases or class differences in the biological sciences. (OKay, so I've known some phds who were absolutely terrible to any people in their labs... and I think that was just they were mean people that would torture anyone they could get away with torturing, even if it was fellow phds who wouldn't stand up for themselves) Yes, most of the tenured professors tend to be old men, but most of them at this point don't have a choice in taking women seriously. My graduate school class was 13 females. We did have 1 token male, but he was doing the 1 year certificate program to try to get into med school. And old men professors seem to not have too much problems with ending up with a lab full of smart females that look up to them as a mentor.

But, I was always taken seriously and my opinions sought - as a high school student working in a military lab, a college student in a lab, as a grad student or as a post-doc. And I can't say that I ever really observed class differences, but then I've never been the top of the chain. As a grad student or post-doc, you're pretty aware that you need to be in the lab technicians good graces. But lab technicians, high school or college students, etc. were always invited to sit in on meeting about a project they were working on, and they were listened to - because they were the ones actually doing the work.

I won't say that I'm not disgruntled with the whole academia, post-doc, etc - but it's not about being female or not being taken seriously because of my level or anything like that.

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Originally Posted by ny biker

I think it's important to look at it this way: they're not men, they're people. We're all people. If you're focused on gender differences, how can you expect others to overlook them? Same for age. Who cares if someone is old enough to be your father or young enough to be your daughter? If you're colleagues, that's what is most important.

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Well said!

Well, I never experienced it either until I moved out of academia and into a company ... and I'm in Wyoming - that could have something to do with it. I have experienced maddening hierarchies (usually in gvmt labs), but in academia, I have found that one's brains speak much louder than one's degrees. I have also learned that those who really put much stock in the PhD after the name are usually narrow minded and petty to begin with...

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Originally Posted by ginny

Nope, what I am really hoping is that we get lots of SBIR and STTR money and maybe some private money and make a new and cool company doing what I love with people I really like. I am SO stoked about the prospect of being involved in starting this new company.

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Look at this as practice. If you are eventually starting your own business and asking people for money, then knowing how to jump into these conversations and not be dismissed will be a useful tool for you. Polish it now (without getting pulled into the gossip), and it will be much easier later.

I used to dis all of this networking stuff, too. I work in a field that used to be all male, and is still mostly male. I finally figured out, that you have to talk to these guys. Stand next to them whenever they form their little groups, and ask questions. Eventually the hardest part will be getting them to shut up and let you talk.

I gotta tell ya, if you thought as I did, that working with more women would be easier, you are wrong. We have more women in our workgroup now, and they have created so much strife and discontent through drama, that I am completely disillusioned and depressed. The latest is one woman screamed swear words at one of the men, then she complained to HR and lied about it, and HR is completely taking her side. Give me the old boys any day, they at least have the grace to apologize when they say something really crass and stupid.

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Originally Posted by tc1

I work in a field that used to be all male, and is still mostly male.

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Me too! I THOUGHT! But this thread prompted me to take note of something I hadn't noticed in my own office building.

My building houses the revenue areas for my company. We have 22 employees in the building, 14 of them are professional staff and 8 are adminstrative. Of the professional staff, 10 are women and 4 are men!

In banking, my casual observation is that the professional staff is usually 50/50 femaie/male...but it shifted in my own office...and I didn't even notice...

No wonder I'm comfortable on TE!:rolleyes: