Club issues

/Warning - long rant ahead...

Ok. Can you let me know if I'm being silly here? I've ridden with this club affiliated with a LBS the past 2 years. It's all men for the most part, which is fine I guess. But I'm getting a little bit peeved lately. Most of them are older, former racers, that still have that cocky mentality. The others are nice guys that acknowledge the attitude of the others. But will jump and hammer when the others go because they're still competitive. I'm the only woman who has consistently ridden with the club. Other women show up and try to ride with them, but they just get dropped. Then they don't come back. This also happens with men who show up who aren't THAT into cycling.

We had a meeting in the off season and I recommended an A and B group to help retain riders. And for everyone to be a bit more aware of when other riders are struggling. Maybe they need a few minutes to recover but could hold on if the group would just wait a minute. This has worked ok for the Saturday rides, though the B group is much smaller. Sometimes it's just me and another guy, who is really nice. The problem I'm having is I'm too fast for B pace and cannot maintain A pace for as far as they go without them easing up for a bit, which they won't do. Because B is so small, it cannot be broken up if some riders are faster but not good enough for A.

We have week day evening rides which I'd missed for the past month or so, until this past Tuesday. The pace was really high, anywhere from 20 to 26 mph. Normally we take it somewhat easy and sprint the last strech of the loop we do. It's considered a free for all there, where you hammer til you can't any more. Then we all meet at the stoplight and repeat the loop. We do this 3 times. A new woman showed up, and I was really excited. She was dropped even before we reached the first turn in the loop. I never saw her again, so I assume she went home. Another woman stopped after 2 loops. We also dropped at least 2 guys. I barely hung on with another guy on the 3rd loop, and didn't even sprint the final leg. At least a couple guys waited for me at the light to head back as a group.

I put a post on our bikejournal page about the pace and dropping people. The retort I got from one guy was that if we slow down we're going to lose the "stronger riders" to the other club in the area and suggested A&B for the weekday rides also. I agreed with him, but I'm annoyed. Instead of trying to help other people get better, they just keep going. I also don't enjoy riding the entire time at my peak threshold. They certainly have made me a stronger rider, but the 'tude is getting to me. Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion, but I'm annoyed and am wanting to join another club. Ironically, it's the other club that the guy was talking about. They have a woman's racing team and a much more diverse set of riders.

So should I jump ship for the other club? I've already been exchanging emails with the woman who heads up the woman's racing team. I rode with them once last year, and they're certainly fast. But when I got dropped a few people held back and stayed with me.

Have any of you experienced this with male dominated clubs?

/rant over :)

First let me say that I think this is not a case of "male dominated" clubs, it has to do with club attitude in general. I've seen enough weirdness in womens' clubs, too.

I started a mountain biking club, an IMBA chapter, this year as I as not getting what I needed in a club. I tried on several clubs for size, so to speak, and then started one that was focused on doing what the others werern't.

The only real answer I have for you is to put your $$ where your mouth is. "B" group riders are too slow for you but you think there needs to be a B group? Get your mileage/paces yayas out on a different ride, and be a B group ride leader. How do you think beginners get better? By being encouraged in a supportive enviroment that is conducive to rider growth.

or, so what if you go to the other club. Does anyone really care? If you aren't getting what you need as a rider, take some action for yourself.

just my 2¢ as usual

Thanks Irulan. I ran into a guy from my club out on the road today and discussed my gripes with him. He said he was tired of the attitude as well with the club, and that he was going to talk to the shop owner. In the past it was an unwritten "rule" to slow the pace to wait for people who got separated on turns on higher traffic roads and at stop signs, etc. It's now less like a club ride and more like every man for himself. I told him about switching clubs and he said I'd probably run into a similar problem there. So you may be right about it being a club thing versus a male-dominated club thing. I'm still going to give them a try anyway. Perhaps that's where I can get my "ya-yas" and volunteer to lead the B group with the other club. I can't see anyone else doing it, other than my fellow Saturday B rider. And he works evenings more often lately.

so, is this a club or a shop sponsored group?

hmmm, we have similar stuff that happens here, but basically I find you choose the ride you want / need to do. If that means doing the ride where you hang on as long as possible and maybe get dropped, so be it. If you want a group to stick together, then do the rides that have that.

Irulan's suggestion sounds good - depending on what your own goals are and whether the suggestion fits in.

It's nice to keep a look out for other riders, and as a Level 1 coach and knowing what it was like for me to start out riding, I'm all for encouragement etc. But not if it's going to cost me my own goals. I find I'll hook up with newer / recreational / slower riders on my recovery days, where my pace is suitable for them, and it works all round.

It sounds like you need to ask your LBS about putting together a ride that averages a slower speed... and/or... a "no drop" ride (where you wait for the slower ones and encourage them to keep at it!).

I bet if it were something advertised/posted in the shop... you would get a nice group meeting up to go on those rides.

And for the no drop ride... make it very clear at the start, that NO ONE gets dropped. So, that might mean stopping at certain points, etc... and if someone wants to forge ahead... and get dropped from the front, then that is their choice.

Also, can you ride with BOTH clubs? Why just ride with one? Pick the rides you like best... and go from there???

Best of luck in finding your niche!

It's a shop sponsored group. But they call it a club :D

Thanks for the tips everyone. They advertise a no drop rule, but it's never adhered to. Which is why we came up with A&B groups to help those who just can't keep up. The issue is the club isn't that big, so the number of B riders is very small. I'd like to boost that somehow. I think if we could retain those who come out and get dropped and think that the club is just way too fast for them into another category that'd be great. It just never seems to happen. I'm so used to getting dropped by those guys I don't think twice really. Though it was nice when they'd let you catch up if you fell off because of a turn or a stop sign. It's not fun to have to hammer all the time to catch up and then die and fall right back off again :) I'm definitely going to start riding with the other club when my schedule allows. They seem much more female friendly. I hope my impression holds.

one thing I've been doing this summer is helping out on a lot of beginner rides. Sometimes they are way too slow for me, the rides are way too easy, but I put on a smile, and make sure everyone has a fun time. Why? It's in my best interest to create more compentent mountain bikers. And if they are having fun, I am having fun.

So I encourage you to help make it happen.

Irulan

Beta- I know exactly how you feel.

I ride w/ a group that leaves from the LBS every saturday morning. And the rides are great when there's a small group, like 6 to 12 or so. But if the group gets any bigger than that, I know I'm going to be dropped. That happend just yesterday b/c about 20 riders showed up, and 2 were former racers. I am definately the only girl and one of the younger riders.
We get an email every week, and it says "easy pace, 14-16mph". This last ride began at 20mph, and before we had gone 2 miles the main group (read all except 4) were over a mile a head. It's like the men have a "I can't let anyone go faster than me" mentality and there's no way they can even think about the set pace of 14-16mph at that point.
So I was about 1/2 mile in front of the last 2 guys, and the one other rider in front of me slowed to wait for me to catch up, b/c he thought I was the last one, but after he realized that there were 2 more behind me, he said, well, I'm going to go try and catch up with the rest of the group. I am thankful that he waited for more, but was so irritated when he took off at 26+mph to catch up. He's always there on the group rides and I've riden with him a lot.
Now, at this point I had to really concentrate on not being super mad. I had to remind myself numerous times that I was riding a great pace, about 18mph on rolling hills, and that I was actually going faster than the "set" pace for the ride. But that kept making me think that I shouldn't have been dropped in teh first place... so frustrating.
After riding about a half hour by myself and trying to calm down ( I was so bitter at that pt) I figured it might cheer me up a bit to ride with the 2 behind me. So I waited for them to catch up at the stop sign. I'm not sure if that made the ride better or worse. They actually were really annoying conversationalists (maybe it was just my attitude at the time). And I swear they kept slowing down after I had waited for them.
For the topping on the cake, when we were about 2 miles from the end of the ride, as I'm talking to them, the one guy goes off the brim of the road (no shoulder on the country road). Now it's common sense that you can't just jerk bike back on, you wouldn't do that w/ your car, why would you do that w/ your bike? but that's exactly what he did. He totally biffed and almost took the other guy w/ him. Of course he had a flat at this point, so we had to stop. I tried to show some sympathy, but really I was thinking "how stupid was that" can't you stay on the road. He only went off the side b/c he wasn't paying attention, and is a swervy rider.
I can credit 2 of the riders though (and one was the guy that waited for me the first time) b/c they rode out to make sure everybody was making it in. (apparently men even take away tire changes from each other, b/c they fixed his flat)
But at this point I was just really aggrevated b/c my ride wasn't enjoyable. Hopefully next week is better! Sorry this post is so long!

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So I was about 1/2 mile in front of the last 2 guys, and the one other rider in front of me slowed to wait for me to catch up, b/c he thought I was the last one, but after he realized that there were 2 more behind me, he said, well, I'm going to go try and catch up with the rest of the group. I am thankful that he waited for more, but was so irritated when he took off at 26+mph to catch up. He's always there on the group rides and I've riden with him a lot.

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Ok I feel your pain here. I had this happen to me on my annoyance ride! This guy who is part of the problem to me I think was riding with me along one stretch of our loop. He showed up late, we were on our third loop by then so he had fresh legs. He was telling me about his issues at work, and I was chatting up with him. Needless to say we fell a bit behind the pack. After we made the turn, and he noticed we were behind I said "yeah they're pushing the pace tonight" and he goes "well I'm gonna catch up". Gone. Into the headwind no less. No, hey let's work together or anything. He kept me back listening to his crap then dropped me like a hot potato. There was another guy who'd fallen off so I sat on his wheel for a while. I was like hey thanks dude. I was pissed.
Needless to say I'm not feeling real bad for him tonight with his email to the club about his 2 crashes today in his first Crit. I'd be a liar if I said it didn't make me smile once I realized he just has a really bad case of road rash. I know, bad karma is now set up for me. :D May the bike gods be somewhat kind to me in dishing it out.

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Originally Posted by betagirl

. I'd be a liar if I said it didn't make me smile once I realized he just has a really bad case of road rash. I know, bad karma is now set up for me. :D May the bike gods be somewhat kind to me in dishing it out.

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We are both needing the bike gods b/c that's how I felt about the guy with the flat, and he didn't even drop me. Sometimes I wish I could control the inner B***h that I've got.

I have to agree with Irulan. Lead a slower ride some days and go hammer with the A group other days knowing you may be dropped. Good training means you mix up the pace anyway. I've gone out with my two co-workers a couple of times, took my town bike, rode slow and talked about bike handling, etc. It has really been rewarding for me. I get slow recovery days but more importantly its making me think about what I went through in the early days. I'm finding new inspiration from their joy of discovery. I also do little things on the bike path with them that I don't take time to do when I'm on harder rides - practice riding without hands (can do on my mtbike but just getting up the guts to do it on the road), countersteering even the smallest of corners, turning waaay around to look behind me, slow races, etc. Little things that get passed up when you're always out hammering.

I have to think that if the word goes out that you are leading these B rides that your credibility within your local bike community will go up and you may attract riders in that mid-range speed that you're looking for. Maybe even end up with decent size A, B and C groups.

Hey Irulan, Can I come ride with your beginning groups? I can't seem to find any slow-mo road groups to ride with. BikerHen

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Originally Posted by bikerHen

Hey Irulan, Can I come ride with your beginning groups? I can't seem to find any slow-mo road groups to ride with. BikerHen

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Sure we go out on Monday nights, usually at Riverside but not always. Tonight, I think we are meeting bowl and pitcher at 6 pm. You can get my phone # via my sig, the gal who runs them likes a head count.

For road, check into the WOW women's group, and Spokane Bicycle Club.

Darn! Can't go on Monday nights. I have play practice up on GreenBluff. I have been riding my bike up there once a week. It's good uphill practice. :eek:

I tried WOW, and was not quite up to their standard. :( Have thought about Spokane Bike Club and Mountaineers, but I waited to long to join in and all the road rides have gotten to fast for me.

I really do enjoy riding by myself, but would like to be a part of the local cycling groups too. What is a poor hen to do?! BikerHen

So my griping to the club has caused some good discussions. We're going to have a meeting and review the "rules" of the weekday rides and see what we need to do to keep new rider interest while keeping the veterans happy. I offered to lead the B group on one of the weeknights, and some others have stepped up as well. So I'm going to be a club floozy and ride with both. The one will give me better racing training and more time riding with other women, and I can maintain the friendships I've made with the guys.

Thanks for the advice and letting me vent.

These kind of discussions make me NEVER want to join a club!
Doesn't anybody ride for fun anymore?

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Originally Posted by joyrider

Doesn't anybody ride for fun anymore?

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Since many of the clubs have predominantly male membership I would guess "guy fun" is the order of the day. My impression of what they think of as "fun" can be very different than what many women think is fun.

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Originally Posted by joyrider

These kind of discussions make me NEVER want to join a club!
Doesn't anybody ride for fun anymore?

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Ditto. Now I remember why I ride alone so often.

OTOH, I chose my rides. Sometimes, I want to ride with the 2% body fat crowd because that is how I'll get stronger. I know I'll be dropped - oh well! If I know it's a competitive group, it's my choice. It sounds like you have more than one group out there - so I'd think that each rider could choose their own poison.

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Originally Posted by joyrider

These kind of discussions make me NEVER want to join a club!
Doesn't anybody ride for fun anymore?

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I belong to the funnest club around...Amici Veloci! My impression is that it's about riding and bonding with each other (and our bikes) and eating and adventures.

The local "club" that I ride with also is way fun. The rides are never that intense and the focus is on just getting out and riding. Sometimes I ride hard and sometimes I sweep. We usually spread way out but most of us will all have dinner together afterwards and talk about everything from the tour to the traffic.

So some clubs are still fun. I think it depends upon what you expect from the club.

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Originally Posted by joyrider

These kind of discussions make me NEVER want to join a club!
Doesn't anybody ride for fun anymore?

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(pops head up) Mee ! I do!

Hi, I'm jobob, and I'm a slacker. :D I don't "treat every ride as a training ride" (I cringe whenever I hear that, LOL !) and I consider hammering something you do to nails.

My husband and I used to belong to a club located in our hometown, but the prevailing attitude was along the lines of what betagirl and others wrote about. Bleah, I don't need that ! The club we now belong to is located a ways from our home, so we often (but not always) need to drive over a half hour to get to the start of a ride. But the club offers a wide variety of rides, and we soon learned which types of rides, and which ride leaders, best suit our abilities and temperments. I think the fact that there is such a large number & variety of rides allows the hardbodies to have their definition of fun, while the more social riders have theirs. It's a good mix. (If you're in the San Jose CA area, it's the Almaden Cycle Touring Club - www.actc.org - jobob sez check it out)

Sure, I'd probably be a better, stronger, faster rider if I pushed myself more. But knowing me I'd more likely burn out and quit if it stopped being fun - I have a really low tollerance for pain ! :o That's not to say I don't push myself when the spirit is willing, I like to get stronger and faster to be able to go on more interesting rides, but not at the expense of losing the fun.

Oh dear, another 'Me, too' post.

Every time I read something about clubs and club rides - even those reports that are supposed to be positive - my first reaction is a shudder. I can do without all the, um, issues?, baloney?, posturing? All that, at any rate.

I'm sure that if I rode with a club that challanged me, I'd get "better," what ever that means. But would I quit riding because it would stop being fun? Then for sure I'd get "worse." No thanks, I won't take that chance. I'll ride along in blissful solitude, crawling up hills, bombing down same, chasing the occasional roadie, and just generally enjoying myself and my ride. Life is to short to NOT enjoy the bike rides.

It's because of these posts and you wonderful ladies (and riding with Harley Chapters) that I had high expectations when I went on my first "official" club ride. and I was very disappointed and disgruntled.
It was billed as the "slowest, flattest, no t-shirt, no sag century" and it was being held by one of the local bike chapters. I had spoken with the group leader on the phone the night before and explained I was a newbie to club rides and what my avg spd was for centuries. He said this was an X ride (all spds, all types welcome). When I got there he made sure we all understood the route which would be 3 33 miles loops and then "find someone to show you where to pick up the other mile" (find someone?) We also signed a form with our name and emergency contact info.....then he and a couple of guys took off like bats outta he**. I hung in the back until I could "learn the ropes" but no one stayed back with me, there was no sweep, nada. I sucked wheel for awhile until I missed a turn off (I'd ridden the route before but didn't know part of it had been closed and I guess the leader et al forgot that we might want to know that).
I did pick up a riding buddy or 2 eventually and when we finished the ride, there was no one in the parking lot to make sure everyone was accounted for (lotta good the emergency contact info did eh?). At one point my buddy got a flat and told me to just go on and I said "no.....I don't leave ppl on the side of the road" to which she replied "oh this group never waits for anyone". Hmmmm good thing I'm not really part of "this group" then eh?
I had just never expected a club ride to be "every man for themselves", nor had I ever experienced that style of riding in a club. Even the Harley groups always made sure a newbie was paired with an oldie and if you signed a sheet saying you were going on the ride, head counts were done at every stop, and No One was left on the side of the road - or behind.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant but after reading all the wonderful club ride stories here - I was really looking forward to my first one!
I'm now back with most of you, as a rule I ride alone. Since I never want to race and I just ride for the joy of riding, I was hoping to find a group of ppl that had the same riding style - but I guess it isn't to be had in this city.

In cycling, you'll find every kind of rider. Getting dropped used to piss me off. The anger stemmed from my weaknesses not their strengths. I have been fortunate because most of the guys have waited at intersections or told me up front the pace would be too fast for me.

It is important to foster riding in newbies, which I do. Harder rides are done solo or with the fast group days. I have complained to a few strong/bikeshop riders about not helping others get stronger on the bike, especially those clearly wanting to improve. New riders need lots of instruction on bike etiquette, bike handling, drafting, cleaning, maintenance, etc. Most of the guys are doing a lot better at helping newbies.

This year I dusted a fella that just couldn't understand paceline riding. He took the pace up every time he led. He had the paceline strung out over half a mile and then some. The newer male riders were disgusted and somewhat demoralized. When he increased the pace to 26 mph and even some of the stronger guys were struggling, I got really pissed off. I ignorantly broke from the line blasting past that guy at 31 mph. He called me a sandbagger. I guess he'd been struttin' his stuff. He slowed when he saw me coming around him. So I slowed and nicely let him know he was blowing the paceline apart, which defeats the purpose on multiple levels. Afterwards, he maintained the set pace rather than ratcheting it up. He may have been ignorant but his actions were making the ride harder on everyone. So don't be afraid to speak up.

I dropped back to pull some of the other guys up but they didn't want to participate in a blistering pace again. Couldn't convince them it wouldn't be blistering because the burn was too fresh. So it happens to guys, too, not just us gals.

I've heard these problems in most clubs I've been in or around. There's a Darwinian logic to it. People who get dropped don't come back, so only the strong survive and perpetuate the problem.

There is a huge hormonal (tho' I'm speaking more adrenaline than, say, testosterone) aspect. The very same people who gripe about being dropped will not recognize when they drop people. People will *swear* that it really, honestly, I-really-mean-it-this-time-honey be an easy ride... until the hormones take over and they're cranking out the mphs. Most of the time they don't apologize afterward though - they'll somehow believe that no, they really weren't going that fast.

Doesn't take long before people know that the "no drop" phrase is usually a lie, so even *fewer* turtles come out of their shells. Clubs are just for hammers.

And you don't have to drop 'em to have 'em not come back. I've seen rides where the fast people tried to be nice and backed off to a pace the newer riders could keep up with ... *barely.* As in, it wasn't a good time (and it doesn't help to realize that you're coughing up a lung and the guys around you haven't broken a sweat). So, when I'm leading a slower ride, I show up on my 45 pound single speed, and I try to take it down that extra 5% and, yes, ***stop and rest*** on occasion. A couple of rides like that and the people who have to hammer stop coming. Sort of reverse dropping :-) (I announce the "regroup" spot at the beginning.)

Of course it takes a while to build credibility, and this gets confounded by the fact that if nobody believes the ride will go slow, then only fast (though they don't believe it) people will come , and you don't want to go slow when there's nobody there to go slow for, so you go fast and then it's not a slower ride any more.

My theory is that you can't slow down a pace by simply DECLARING THAT THIS WILL BE A SLOW RIDE. SOmetimes you *can* win with reverse psychology - "I know most of you will go faster. We'd appreciate it if some of you kept to the advertised pace, but I understand if you can't do that." Then there's old-fashioned guilt -- "remember where you came from, folks - you were new once!"

Sometimes it really is a personal perception thing - people simply can't believe that lil' ol' them is fast.

When I joined our club, we had a moderate it's-only-for-hammers issue (and a major credibility problem with that "nobody will be dropped" line). Fortunately about five other people came out around the same time, and we realized taht if we came out together, we'd have people to ride with. There's a "critical mass" aspect - now there are enough riders out there so there *is* a real "B" group. You have to talk about it though, and keep educating people who don't realize they've gotten so much faster that now they're the dropper, not the droppee.

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Originally Posted by betagirl

So my griping to the club has caused some good discussions. We're going to have a meeting and review the "rules" of the weekday rides and see what we need to do to keep new rider interest while keeping the veterans happy. I offered to lead the B group on one of the weeknights, and some others have stepped up as well. So I'm going to be a club floozy and ride with both. The one will give me better racing training and more time riding with other women, and I can maintain the friendships I've made with the guys.

Thanks for the advice and letting me vent.

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It's agood plan... but boy, it takes patience and persistence to change their ways even once a week.

You can suggest that people bring their funkiest oldest bike -- it's what I do. It changes both the physiology and the psychology, and I've not known people to be insulted by it; they're more comforted by it.

I'm not sure why the cycling community is so difficult sometimes...

We have a great club here, they have a huge variety of rides that stay under 14, plus lots of rides in the 15-18 range. There are however, no rides that go faster. I finally tracked down a unaffiliated group that rides on Saturdays, but if the LBS owner didn't introduce me around I would have been completely ignored. It's a hammer till I puke, elbow bumping, no one even looks over their shoulder when I drop kinda ride, but it's the best training for racing there is.

When a few of the guys from the faster group show up to a regular club ride, everyone else grumbles about them showing up. I think it's great, because then there are A, B, and C pace groups, instead of just C/B.

No club is perfect...in fact most have problems. It's sad that cycling is so hard to get into, it seems it's all about who you know in a lot of ways.

Reading all these *issues* with the club rides in your areas... I feel lucky for the rides/clubs I have acces to here in Dallas.

Sat. and Sun. I have "no drop" rides I go on. Everyone is really nice and friendly on both rides. I have FUN going on them!

I have a Wed. night ride I go on.... and it is faster... but people are still friendly. True, I end up riding alone at some point (in between the fast/slow packs)... but I understand.

Maybe I just lucked out and found the good rides to go on around here? I am sure that the faster rides I don't go on.. . have some people with attitude issues.