Small wheels vs large wheels - steering responsiveness?

I keep having this discussion with a friend. He basically only rides bikes with little wheels. He has a few dahon folders, and then recently when he wanted to get a fixed gear, he eventually found a sillgey fixed gear with like 20 inch wheels. it looks something like this:

http://evilism.files.wordpress.com/2...pg?w=510&h=382

He keeps saying that when he rides a bike with regular sized wheels, it feels like he has to manhandle the handlebar from side to side to get the bike to turn.

Since I don't notice any effort at all getting my road bike to turn, I seem to mostly just lean the bike to go around curves, and I've never ridden a folder or bizarre fixed gear with little wheels... I don't get it - the actual contact patch of a road 700x23 tire with the pavement is not that big.

I know a few of you have both folding bikes & regular bikes - Tulip's got her luna & her bike friday. Do you find your regular bike is less responsive than your folder?

The first folder I rode had flat bars and I found it twitchy. I rode it only in a parking lot, and only for a few minutes.

I find that my Bike Friday rides like a regular bike. It was made based on the measurements of my Luna. I don't notice that I'm on a folding bike. Next time you are in town, give me a call and you can ride it and see for yourself.

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Originally Posted by tulip

The first folder I rode had flat bars and I found it twitchy. I rode it only in a parking lot, and only for a few minutes.

I find that my Bike Friday rides like a regular bike. It was made based on the measurements of my Luna. I don't notice that I'm on a folding bike. Next time you are in town, give me a call and you can ride it and see for yourself.

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I'm just curious, the only smaller wheel bike I've tried is a 650c, and I hated that bike... it might have been the bike itself & not the wheels though.

I do need to get down there! I've got some free time in November, so definitely by then if I haven't before then. I should bring some kayaks down as well.

I have lots of kayak opinions now - I think you & I both want something like the p&h capella ultimately. My tempest 165 plastic is starting to oil can - I don't think I recommend that boat in plastic.

Actually, you might remind him that bikes steer by leaning, not by manhandling the handlebars ;-) (Consider all those folks who ride "no hands.")

I usually ride on 700C wheels, but also have a Bike Friday Tikit with 16-inchers, which is very maneuverable. That has a whole lot more to do with the fact that the Tikit has very little trail, and a short wheelbase than the actual size of the wheels.

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Originally Posted by PscyclePath

Actually, you might remind him that bikes steer by leaning, not by manhandling the handlebars ;-) (Consider all those folks who ride "no hands.")

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I was noticing that when I was riding yesterday - I actually rarely use my handlebars to steer.

And I'm just boggled by a 6 foot guy saying that they feel like they have to manhandle handlebars to turn a 700c bike, but can steer a little wheel bike with their pinky.

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Originally Posted by PscyclePath

I usually ride on 700C wheels, but also have a Bike Friday Tikit with 16-inchers, which is very maneuverable. That has a whole lot more to do with the fact that the Tikit has very little trail, and a short wheelbase than the actual size of the wheels.

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I had thought of the short wheelbase issue, but when I googled, I found stuff like this which was making me think possibly it was the wheel size:

Dahon's website says this:
Are smaller wheels less efficient than large wheels?
No. On the contrary, small wheels actually have many performance advantages compared to larger wheels. Firstly, smaller wheels have a lower moment of inertia that allows significantly faster acceleration and more responsive steering. Secondly, small wheels have lower aerodynamic drag than larger wheels. Thirdly, small wheels can be built to be lighter than larger wheels. And finally, small wheels are by definition stronger than larger wheels. In fact the world speed record for a bicycle ridden in an upright position was set 20 years ago on a bike with 18" wheels. In fact, the only significant disadvantage of small wheels can be when riding on uneven surfaces.

Yes, I find my folder (18" wheels) more maneuverable than my road bike (700c).

I don't notice on most roads, but I will notice a bit on technical (very tight twisty) descents.

I would notice more if I were doing something like riding around a bike barrier in a pedestrian underpass or overpass. (ahem :o)

ETA: It is not just the wheel diameter, it is also affected a lot by the bike geometry and to a lesser extent the tire width.

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Originally Posted by PscyclePath

Actually, you might remind him that bikes steer by leaning, not by manhandling the handlebars ;-) (Consider all those folks who ride "no hands.")

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They steer by leaning, but you initiate the lean by pushing on the handlebars on the side you are turning on (to turn left, you push on the left bar and that initiates a left lean). This is called counter-steering.

Yes, you can turn no-handed but you won't be able to turn as tightly.

I'm sure he doesn't literally mean manhandle, it's just in comparison.

I have a folding bike, KHS T3 (20") and a road bike Fuji Finest RC, so I can say something about the handling. ;) Especially that I have riding on a folder over several hill routes (to 3275 m in altitude).

The steering in a folder is more sensitive than in the bikes with big wheels (26" or 700c). You can ride a regular bikes with hands off easily but not quite so with a folder (unless your balance skill is quite good).

When riding a folding bike on a steep hill (say 8-15%) and the speed is low, I usually have to put some effort on steering to keep the bike straight. And the standing climb is also not as stable as with regular bikes.

I have ridden bikes with 650c wheels, 26" (mtb) wheels, 24" in front/700c in back (Terry), and 20" (Bike Friday), and they all seemed plenty responsive to me. No really huge differences (other than the stability of a huge mtb knobby, of course!)

I must say, tho, I totally looooooooove all those pretty Sillgeys in ice cream colors! I have never seen one. Totally cool! :p

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Originally Posted by emily_in_nc

I must say, tho, I totally looooooooove all those pretty Sillgeys in ice cream colors! I have never seen one. Totally cool! :p

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He's got the lime grey with matching lime green stem & handlebars - brooks saddle & leather grips.

says he'll let me try it out when I go out to visit next month. Should be fun.

I'd like to know how riding a Bike Friday compares with riding a Dahon. Everyone who rides a Bike Friday loves them, and they always say they ride like a road bike. I could certainly tell I was on a small bike with the Dahon Boardwalk, their lower end.

Has anyone ridden both and can compare? I'd also like to know how the 20" Bike Fridays and 16" wheel Tikits ride compared to each other.

There is a bike shop in Northern Virginia where you can rent bike Fridays, but I didn't get there this summer. I really wanted to test ride one!

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Originally Posted by uforgot

I'd like to know how riding a Bike Friday compares with riding a Dahon. Everyone who rides a Bike Friday loves them, and they always say they ride like a road bike. I could certainly tell I was on a small bike with the Dahon Boardwalk, their lower end.

Has anyone ridden both and can compare? I'd also like to know how the 20" Bike Fridays and 16" wheel Tikits ride compared to each other.

There is a bike shop in Northern Virginia where you can rent bike Fridays, but I didn't get there this summer. I really wanted to test ride one!

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Hrm... Maybe I need to take a trip to northern Virginia (or down to see tulip...)

But the last thing I need is to convince myself I need a folding bike.

Bikes at Vienna (in Vienna, Virginia) sells all sorts of folding bikes, but mostly Bike Fridays. They have used ones and may even have rentals. Nice shop, if you can find it (entrance in a sort of alley, hard to find but keep looking!)

I find 16 inch wheels way more nervous...

Front end handling, be it twitchy or stable, etc. is determined by a lot more than wheel size. Head tube angle and fork offset play the more important roles. Combined, head angle, fork offset and wheel size determine a number called "trail."
Trail for most road bikes is in the upper 50 to lower 60 number. You can achieve this number with any sized wheel by adjusting the head angle and/or fork offset...hence why so many well-designed small wheel bikes feel as responsive, steering-wise, as their larger-wheel versions.

Those fixies look sorta funny to me, though. I like my wheels to be in proportion to frame size, wherever possible!

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Originally Posted by tulip

Bikes at Vienna (in Vienna, Virginia) sells all sorts of folding bikes, but mostly Bike Fridays. They have used ones and may even have rentals. Nice shop, if you can find it (entrance in a sort of alley, hard to find but keep looking!)

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That's it! I couldn't think of the name. I think I even saw that they rent Bike Friday tandems.

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Originally Posted by uforgot

I'd like to know how riding a Bike Friday compares with riding a Dahon. Everyone who rides a Bike Friday loves them, and they always say they ride like a road bike. I could certainly tell I was on a small bike with the Dahon Boardwalk, their lower end.

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I suspect it's about much more than just wheel size. My BF Pocket Crusoe is a "petite" model (for riders < 125 lbs) so is one of the lightest ones they make (smaller diameter tubing), and I have drop bars so don't ride as upright as I would on a flat-bar folder. Ultegra in front, XT in the back for loaded touring. The fact that the componentry is better and it is much lighter weight than a Dahon would probably make it ride much better. I've never ridden any other folder besides my Friday, though.