Faster on the flats

Ok, after Deathride training, I know I am super-strong and have the endurance of a... I dunno, what's slow but doesn't ever stop, turtles? That's me these days. So strong, but, well, slow.

I joined a group ride the other day that claimed it was going "relaxed" pace, but I was dying to hang onto the back of the pack with a moving average of 16.5mph. Considering my usual average is in the 14-16 range, I started seeing stars.

How do I move up a rank on the speed category? I'm sick of being dropped.

-- gnat!

I don't know and I'm nowhere *near* being able to do Deathride (although you have inspired me and I have it in my verrrrry longterm sights!), but I have this same problem. I won't even go on a group ride because I know I'm slow. But the thing is, I don't *feel* slow. I feel like I'm just chugging along, but then I look at my average speed and, not so much.

Anyway, no advice, I just feel your pain.

Intervals. Hate to say it, but intervals. Your body undergoes "adaption" unless you continue to challenge it. So you may be strong, but you are (from what you describe) only strong if you are pedaling at the one pace. And, I would think, if you had to ramp it up to 17 mph average, you would not be able to sustain your turtlelike endurance (I think turtles aren't particularly endurance athletes anyhow).
Also, look at how you are riding....are you riding high cadence/low gear? low cadence/high gear? or high cadence high gear?
I am in no way lightening like fast. I average 17-18 on moderate hills, but I can sustain that pace and throw in some sprints for a mile or two. On flat I ride 22-23 mph unless there is a headwind....ugh. And I have to continually trick my body into getting fitter and faster by challenging it (if I have been standing to climb I will sit, or stand if I have been sitting, I will climb in a harder gear or make myself not let my cadence drop or speed drop below X on a hard climb).
I also ride my MTB at least once a week. It makes me stronger on my road bike and helps in my constant battle to "trick" my body.

I don't know if this is the correct way to train but what has worked for me is to simply hang on to the group as long as I can at the faster pace and then drop back to something that is more comfortable for me. At first, I was doing good if I stayed with them for the first few miles. Lately, I am staying with the front group until they kick up past 24mph and then a B group forms. I was happy to have a 14 avg. last September. Last week, I had a 19+ avg for 45 miles. I also found that riding less but at a faster pace actually made me stronger and faster. In the beginning, I thought that I would forever be the one that was struggling at the end. Last weekend, there was a rider who was having a difficult time, but we were still 20 miles from the shop. It was finally my turn to be the more experienced and powerful rider. It felt great to be able to do for him what so many others had done for me - provide encouragement and a pull.

Intervals :)
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0...tes-a-week/?em

I got *lots* faster on the flats (and the hills) by doing a four mile loop and trying to get to the top of the puny almost hill on one of the miles (it's a grid with each chunk a mile long) just as fast each time. By the third one I'd have to work hard.... but in a month it took ten fewer seconds... and I didn't torture myself. When I was on the swim teams... oy, *those* intervals hurt and I never did get much faster... there just isn't enough muscle on the arms and I suspect I just drag too much.

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Originally Posted by nolemom

I don't know if this is the correct way to train but what has worked for me is to simply hang on to the group as long as I can at the faster pace and then drop back to something that is more comfortable for me. At first, I was doing good if I stayed with them for the first few miles. Lately, I am staying with the front group until they kick up past 24mph and then a B group forms. I was happy to have a 14 avg. last September. Last week, I had a 19+ avg for 45 miles. I also found that riding less but at a faster pace actually made me stronger and faster. In the beginning, I thought that I would forever be the one that was struggling at the end. Last weekend, there was a rider who was having a difficult time, but we were still 20 miles from the shop. It was finally my turn to be the more experienced and powerful rider. It felt great to be able to do for him what so many others had done for me - provide encouragement and a pull.

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That's basically how I got faster, too. Hook up with some group rides at least twice a week that are just a little beyond your comfort level.

I hate them, but +1 more for intervals.

Intervals are good, but you say your endurance also sucks. So, you need to keep up the saddle time in addition to doing shorter interval workouts. There are also 2 kinds of intervals. Short intervals working on top speed and cardiovascular recovery time and then there are intervals that push your LT such as a 2x20, 1x30, etc.

If you have a hard time really finding your zone for those longer intervals, then keep going to those hard group rides and keep trying to hold on. Sometimes, that type of environment gives you the motivation to push yourself past the limit where, if you were solo, you'd give up. When you can sit in the draft, milk that recovery for all it's worth.

For what it is worth, I don't know an iota about biking in comparison to what I know about conditioning horses for three day eventing....like an equine tri... and it is all about interval training to build strength and speed, and LSD (long, slow, distance) for endurance. Plus technique and nutrition. Hmmmm....sounds familiar.....so that is what I do.:o

LOL gnat, somehow I don't think endurance is an issue for you. :cool:

Thanks, so it sounds like intervals are it!

I don't get to ride with groups very often, which is probably part of why I deceived myself into thinking I was quicker-footed than I was. :)

I've tried intervals a few times in the past, but if I'm doing a 3-minute FAST, I find my mind wandering two minutes in and I zone out. However, with this last group ride, I felt this constant panic that I was going to get dropped, and thus kept pushing. Most of my rides are solo commutes, so, next question:

How do you motivate yourself to really hit those fast high notes? Use the same terrain and try to get faster on the same loop? Heart rate zone focus? Any sort of visualization trick to fool myself into getting out of my comfort zone?

-- gnat! (darn comfort zone. it's so comfy!)

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Originally Posted by jobob

LOL gnat, somehow I don't think endurance is an issue for you. :cool:

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Nono, endurance I definitely got! I think I mixed up my metaphors at some point. Long slow endurance, check. Zippy companion-dropping leg-screaming rights-bragging speed? Not so much. :rolleyes:

-- gnat!

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Originally Posted by gnat23

...
I've tried intervals a few times in the past, but if I'm doing a 3-minute FAST, I find my mind wandering two minutes in and I zone out. However, with this last group ride, I felt this constant panic that I was going to get dropped, and thus kept pushing. Most of my rides are solo commutes, so, next question:

How do you motivate yourself to really hit those fast high notes? Use the same terrain and try to get faster on the same loop? Heart rate zone focus? Any sort of visualization trick to fool myself into getting out of my comfort zone?

-- gnat! (darn comfort zone. it's so comfy!)

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I hate to say this, but I find it easier to do intervals on the trainer. Although, I just discovered a straight stretch of road that I plan to take advantage of for intervals.

Hi gnat,

You were training for a specific event. Death ride is uber mountain stage. Its not a flat stage. Your body is conditioned for the hill climb and not necessarily for the flat high speed.

I've heard and have experienced personally that specialized training for mountain climb can and will make you slower on the flat. So don't be alarmed.

Second, don't psyche yourself out with the pace on the flat. Calm down and have confidence in your ability. It might be easier than you think to hang onto the group.

Third, spend more time on fast spin and high cadence intervals. Attack on gentle hills. They will make you go faster. And enjoy your new status as Death Ride finisher. Wear the jersey if got it and be proud. Wearing the jersey will give you instant respect from other riders.

smilingcat

Dumb question, not intended as a hijack: Wouldn't hard hill repeats work for increasing general speed? I know they can for running, but I also know that cycling is a horse of a different color.

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Originally Posted by witeowl

Dumb question, not intended as a hijack: Wouldn't hard hill repeats work for increasing general speed? I know they can for running, but I also know that cycling is a horse of a different color.

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This would count as intervals.

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Originally Posted by kenyonchris

This would count as intervals.

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Thanks. That's what I suspected, but I wasn't sure.