Master's Swim? Really? This is helpful?

So, I signed up for a Master's swim class in preparation for my first Tri and have finished the first week of class. To say I'm disappointed would be about correct, but I have some questions because maybe it's just me.

First, I freely admit I'm NOT a swimmer. I was never taught to swim beyond one summer's worth of "here's how you swim to save your life". I know my stroke leaves something to be desired and I know I'm, well, rather bad. Maybe I'd be more suited to an Intermediate swim type class, but I don't want or need to learn how to breast stroke, butterfly, or anything else. I need/want to fix/learn my freestyle and be decent enough (in 2 months) to stay afloat and hopefully not make a donkey's rear end out of myself on a 1/2 mile swim course. Because of this I thought I was more suited to a Master's type program that's more flexible.

Well, maybe not. The instructor has flat out said: "I really don't know what to do with you since your endurance is so poor right now". Really? I thought I was PAYING you to fix that!?!? (not to mention I am not sure what he means by "endurance" but I made darn sure I could swim .75/1 mile before I set foot in that class. Considering the class is an hour long it's not like I've given him NOTHING to work with).

Ok, so that urked me, but maybe I'll still get something out of it?

He had me do flip turns (which I don't know how to and don't care to know how to do at this point) for 1/2 the class last meeting. I don't think this is the most productive use of my time *right this instant* considering I'm training for an open water tri (he knows this). Am I wrong?

The other half was backstroke. Again, not something I directly need to know, but maybe this is helping build stroke and arm strength without me having to worry about breathing? Or is it crap work?

He's also having me try to do 200m+ only breathing every 5th stroke. I'm (relatively) comfortable doing the 3-2 breathing pattern discussed some here, but this every 5th stroke is something I CANNOT maintain at this point longer than 75-100m. When I do maintain it my stroke goes to crap (and then I start sucking in water and sinking or having to roll over on my back and gasp for minutes at a time). Is this really helping to build my lung capacity in a way that will meaningfully help me in a tri type environment or is he trying to make me into a competitive swimmer in the pool (which is what I think he's getting at, trying to get me up to not breathing for an entire length...yes, he's said as much. I'm all for building up my lungs some, but I don't see any benefits to holding my breath for an entire 25m...am I wrong again?)

He also gives very little feedback and seems to enjoy standing at the end of the pool with a huge smirk on his face while I attempt to catch my breath after swimming 100's of yards with no air (and a lot of inhaled water!).

Basically, I have no faith in him. Hard for me to after he flat out said he didn't know what to do with me. Is he giving me any good training or is he gearing towards some goal that is not mine (like competitive swimming)? I'm not sure what to do, but I honestly think I was getting more out of swimming laps by myself.

I know you all are going to suggest the total immersion stuff, and I really am thinking about it. I was hoping for an in person trainer that could help as I do respond to external motivation and work harder....well, when that external motivation suits my training/being yelled at style.

Ack, what to do? Is he a better coach than I'm giving him credit for, or is he derailing my training like I suspect? There is a different Master's swim class earlier in the morning (presumably taught by someone different), but I'm not sure if the gym will let me switch classes at this point.

Is it a class or is it a coached workout?

When I did Masters swimming it was a coached workout and it had a competitive swimming focus. What you described, is what I would I expect at a workout - other than the smirking.

Veronica

It is a coached workout, with probably 6+ other people doing different stuff. (Can't blame him for being run ragged I suppose!)

If this is typical of what is expected, is it also a decent way to train for an open water tri...as opposed to competitive swimming (which I have absolutely 0 interest in)? Or, am I better off in some different type of training program? (suggestions welcome on that front).

I guess I'd just rather, if I'm going to be doing this seemingly random (for me) stuff, that he take 2 minutes to explain what exactly I'm focusing on and to what end. Especially after the "I don't know what to do with you" speech. Maybe I'm expecting too much and would be better suited in a different type of program.

Well, there is no point in flip turns that's for sure. :D

Doing other stroke work does have benefits and can be a nice change of pace.

Maybe you could get a training program from beginner triathlete http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/Sc...st_half_ir.htm and ask him to help you with the swimming portions on the days you're at the workout. I linked to the one I use for my HIM. I don't follow it exactly, but it gives me something to think about for my workouts. Otherwise I'd just go swim 2000 yards, kick 300 yards, pull 500 yards and call it a day. That gets old.

I wish I had a Masters program nearby. :)

Veronica

I've done THREE Ironman swims and I'm STILL scared of the Masters classes.
Around here they are for what I would call the grown up fishies.
Fast adult swimmers who want to get faster.

When I was first getting into the sport I signed up for an adult swim lesson session at the Y. I told the teacher on our first day why I was there, and she worked with me a bit different than the others. I was a lot like you. I basically knew how to swim, but was never a "real" swimmer. It was a great experience.
I'm still slow as molasses in january in the water, but I make the cut offs.
Personally I'm ready to progress on to the local tri coaches who do a total immersion private program. It's spendy tho, and being a biz owner I'm a bit short of funds these days.
As for the masters... The instructor sounds like a turd. I wouldn't go back. In fact I don't think I would have gone back for a second session.
BTW- are there other triathletes at that class? I'm wondering if he has a thing against triathletes. Some ( a lot actually) single sport coaches seem to have a chip on their shoulders.
I have heard the phrase "jack of all trades, master of NONE" far too many times... :(

Your endurance will improve the more time you spend in the pool. I started out the summer not being able to do one length of freestyle due to breathing difficulties. Tips here from TE'ers, plus working on my own has made me a "serviceable" and improving swimmer. I can now swim more than an hour without taking a break. I'm not fast but I don't get tired. That's after six weeks. I still don't do flip turns and am not sure I ever will (the rebel in me!).

Check out the Total Immersion website (I believe Fiddlefreek suggested it to me and it has made all the difference). I have the book and the Freestyle & Breathing DVDs.

If you are like me, you need to go at your own pace and get comfortable in the water. I'm actually tempted to take a TI class to improve my technique.

I've participated in a couple of Masters swim programs, and I enjoyed them. But I know how to swim--all the strokes. The Masters programs are not geared to teach you strokes, just improve your fitness and technique. And knowing different strokes is important. It's a very athletic and competitive environment, akin to fast club rides where cyclists do pacelines. Not a place to learn new stuff.

The coach sounds like a snarky jerk, but there are all types. Yes, it would be nice if he were up-front and told you that either he you are in the wrong place or work with you to get to where you are more comfortable in the water.

Taking some swimming classes would be really beneficial, and then doing workouts specifically for tri training. You can determine if you want to join another Masters program at a later date.

I don't do a masters class but one of our drills is 1/2 lap backstroke & then immediately to freestyle. This goes for people who swim with our coach-folks like me up to the chicks representing Aust on the worlds tri team. Good to know all strokes

I'd find a new coach if I encountered that guy...!

I have another thought about the strokes. Knowing a variety of strokes is very helpful in an open water swim. There will be times that a breast stroke is more appropriate than the freestyle in the swim with all those kicking people around you.

Another reason for swimming different strokes is to use different muscles and avoid getting injured from doing the same stroke all the time during training. This is particularly important if your stroke is not completely correct--you could be doing one little thing that if done over and over could lead to injury.

Finally, it's just downright boring to do the same stroke all the time.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I should clarify I suppose. I guess I'm not opposed to learning new strokes, but with my first Tri in ~1 month I'd rather hedge my bets so to speak and be proficient at the 1 for now rather than trying to become proficient at 3 or 4 in a short amount of time. Then after the tri, and assuming I want to continue with this, broaden my abilities with things that are nice but not crucial (like flip turns, etc.)

Given your advice on the importance of other strokes I think I will consider a class more aimed at learning strokes perhaps this fall (or maybe now if they'll let me switch classes).

I think those of you that are saying this is a competitive swimming class are right. I don't think there are any other triathletes there, and only one other (very nice) student has deemed me worthy of being spoken to. The atmosphere is very much "you aren't welcome here", whether that's because I announced "triathlete" (I didn't realize that could be taboo, I'll be more careful in the future!) or because I stink I don't know. Funny this is not what the class was advertised as, but now I think I can read between the lines better.

I think for now I'm going to try to either switch classes or practice the drills on my own. I appreciate everyone's input that he's not totally off the wall in his methods, but I don't think I'm going to be productive dreading class every day (I dread the pool enough as it is right now!).

As the others said, Masters classes seem to be for those who have the main part of the technique down and just need minor improvements. (heck I blew up my shoulder trying to keep up with the big boys)

All four strokes (well count out fly for me) help you improve the feel for the water, break things up a bit and for backstroke, indeed gives you some power. Flip turns are a nice to have. But playing wall tag with swimmers way beyond your level is frustrating and will get you nowhere.

You have to have pretty good technique to swim any amount of yards breathing 5x. The coach may have been impolite but honest in his assessment :mad:
Consequence: speak to him: either he's willing to observe you do tech drills in another lane, according to your own plan, and help you improve your technique and endurance, or you need another teacher. An intermediate-advanced freestyle class would be good, does not have to be TI, but some of their drills are very useful (some I hate dearly).

Thanks Alpine.

I certainly know what he said was true. Doesn't make me want to work for him though, which makes him a bad coach for me. (my bike shop owner on the other hand knows just how to push me to my limits without saying a word and knows just when to say "you know, how about you try this"...I wish he could coach me!!)

It's already sort of a free for all class with everyone doing something different, so in that regard it's good for me (I don't have to keep up with Joe-competitive-swimmer in lane 4). Honestly though I don't see how anyone gets much out of it. I think the other swimmers use him to time them more than anything, and with 6-8 swimmers all doing something different I can see where that's about all he can do!

I'd love an intermediate/advanced freestyle class. One does not exist at my gym :( I think I will ask them if I could switch into the intermediate swimming (general) class though. I think it has potential to fit me better at the moment.

It's like therapy, don't just go to the first one you get referred to unless they are good, shop around. Master's swimming should be encouraging, solidarity, and fun while working. Technique before endurance, no point in building up endurance with the wrong stroke technique....

Well in Master's swimming most coaches are just there to give you a workout. They are not there to coach on you on how to swim. They are also use to generally working with people who were competitive swimmers in HS/College and who understand all the pool lingo and are use to working out in the pool. Ya know?


It sounds like you need to get a private swim coach to perfect your stroke. Anyone who wants to swim as an adult, and swim laps... needs to do this I think.

As for what you are doing helping you with open water swimming... as long as you get some practice in open water... pool workouts translate to open water fine. You can read my 3 mile open water swim RR... and I'll tell you that to prep for that I did 2 workouts a week in the pool (the bulk of my distance) and 1 in open water (only :45 minutes). It translated just fine for me.

Sorry KSH, but the day I can afford a private swim coach is the day I go back to riding horses. That's just the way it is, and if it turns out to be a "need" then I can assure you I won't be competing.

Hey MartianDestiny,

can't you find a college student who'll teach you a bit? Surely this would be affordable. I did about 8 or 10 lessons with one.

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Originally Posted by alpinerabbit

Hey MartianDestiny,

can't you find a college student who'll teach you a bit? Surely this would be affordable. I did about 8 or 10 lessons with one.

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Well coaching doesn't always have to be all that expensive. You would be shocked.

In Dallas... my boyfriend got 8 private swim lessons for the price of what he would have paid for group swim lessons with a tri club.

Master's programs cost... so maybe you can take that money and spend it towards coaching.

You mentioned a personal trainer???? Maybe that money can be used towards a coach?


This Master's swim class is not for you though, so it's best you move on.

Good luck!

The Master's class I signed up for was a whopping $22 for 6 weeks (or was it 8) 3 days a week. Perhaps this is why the coach is not the greatest, but suffice to say they are cheap.

I mentioned an "in person trainer" not a personal trainer. I do tend to work harder when I have someone physically standing there "yelling" at me (or just beating me...I have a bad case of gotta-keep-up-itis), but I don't have one. I was explaining why I had chosen to attempt a class (with a coach physically there) instead of going with the Total Immersion DVD's. I was probably a bit confusing on that point, sorry!

As of right now $$ expenditure is almost solely gear and any entry fees. I don't mind putting some $$ in for lessons/classes/workshops, but I don't have much and if it comes down to $40 a week in private lessons they will be on a horse not in a pool.

I am looking into different class/coach options (as well as just going the Total Immersion route). I'll keep personal sessions an option if I can find them inexpensive enough.

Though at this point my goal is to be decent enough to make it through my first tri. It's unlikely, but I may not even like it or stick with it, so it's even harder to justify going crazy to fix my swimming at this point.

I appreciate the input.

Keep in mind that most masters coaches are just that, coaches. They are not instructors. They are there to take someone who swims passably well and perhaps make them a bit faster. As others said, they tend to provide a structured workout environment for those who want to train in that manner. Perhaps some of the snottiness of your coach is because he is 1)not paid very well (this is likely, at $22/person!) and 2) you are expecting more of him than he is willing to give.

Here is a way to think of it, imagine a college professor and a first grade teacher. Both are intelligent and adept at making the young mind learn. However, one is particularly suited to helping children in the formative years learn to do very basic skills but skills that require huge leaps of the mind, i.e. learning to read. Whereas the other teaches very highly developed skills and knowledge to people who already have the rudimentary skills down pat. I think of a Masters coach as similar to the professor. They might be really good at shaving seconds off of someone's IM time and explaining how to do a very fast flip turn, but ask them to teach a screaming, scared 5-year old how to swim (or for that matter to teach a person who doesn't have a competitive swimming background how to do an efficient open water stroke), and they'll struggle. Or just not want to do it.

It seems like this Masters team is not what you're looking for and maybe you should look elsewhere. With a tri coming up in a month you should be focusing on what you want to focus on, not a workout that is not necessarily geared towards tri's.

I belong to a Master's team, but if I only had a month to go before a tri I would not be taking part in Masters, unless they were very geared towards tris. I would be in the pool just logging yards.

In the off-season, however, Masters is a good way to get stronger and build skills (and alleviate off-season boredom).

K.

At my gym, masters swim is something like $60 (for a member) for 6 or 8 weeks, and I can get 6 or 8 lessons for $85 (as long as I find a buddy to sign up with me, it's more if I do one-on-one). A friend of mine and I did this, and got more individual attention and coaching at not much more cost. You might have to shop around. If you can switch to adult group lessons, that does sound like a better fit than masters swim where they just want to give you a guided workout. I found that only one lesson a week was good enough for me, the other 1 or 2 times I swam during the week it was nice to not be coached and get more different stuff in (I'd have 1 coached lesson, 1 endurance swim, and 1 drill-focused swim).

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Originally Posted by Kimmyt

Perhaps some of the snottiness of your coach is because he is 1)not paid very well (this is likely, at $22/person!) and 2) you are expecting more of him than he is willing to give.

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I can almost guarantee his salary is subsidized by the rec. program at the University in addition to what we pay, and he was snotty from the second I walked in the door (before he even knew I was a) a triathlete or b) a not-so-great swimmer). IMO, he's "snotty" (honestly I just think it's poor social/coaching skills) because he's a college undergraduate male...

I do understand what you are saying, and I agree it's not the class for me and that is not entirely his fault. In my defense here is the class description:

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Master's Swim is a program designed to provide a structured workout environment for different types of swimmers, ranging from those individuals looking to work out for general fitness, to individuals looking to refine their strokes, and also to competitive athletes. Workouts vary from emphasizing endurance and building fitness, to speed work and stroke development. All levels are encouraged to join.

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This seems not very accurate in hindsight, especially that last part. It also seems different (on paper) than most Master's programs, but not different in practice.

Colby, I certainly wouldn't scoff at a $25 or so difference if I could find private or semi private lessons/instruction instead of a class. Even if it was once a week. That to me would be a good deal. Unfortunately, even the very reasonable $85 you quote is over $60 more than the classes.

What about just getting a tri-training book out of the library and doing the swim workouts on your own?