Mountain Bike Ethics question

Hi, ladies!!

You folks are all so positive and encouring! I come back here often and read and sometimes post, because it keeps me from being sucked into the vortex of cycling politics in my town.

Lately, DH and I have been seeing the same signs of dischord and are sadly ill-equipped to help or change it. It's a long story, but it involves us both being blackballed in the cycling community, to the point of there being threats against our persons and our dogs (!!! those are our kids!!), and us, as a result, gaining lots of weight and wading through a 1 1/2 riding season depression.

When I see the vortex coming, I start trying to think of solutions. and quick!!

Okay, so what do I mean?

The incident that caused the aforementioned depression happened about 5 years ago. 2 employees of the bad LBS (and the only LBS at the time) (which was the shop whose owner was president of the newly formed bike club), went up a world-class single track climb and cut out 50 trees to make it a faster downhill.

We felt ballistic and made a lot of noise about how this was not a good thing to do. We had been coerced into being on the executive of the bike club, and regretted it as soon as we saw the damage. We were told to "shut the f*** up, nobody else is complaining, and it makes the trail more fun". We were accused of being the most negative thing in mountain biking in this town. Basically three guys had it in for us - the president, the treasurer, and a guy who isn't involved anymore....and then all of their little wannabe riders. It was ugly ugly ugly.

We recognized around then the other unethical things that were promoted by this shop and club. No trails here are legal, the Ministry of Forests had never been consulted before any trail construction. Many stunts are nailed to live trees, have had live trees cut down to create the stunt, are shabbily built of rotting material, etc. There are new trails built all the time, and many of these cross or connect to well established trails, some of them multi-user. There's a huge potential for injury if someone is barrelling down one trail while someone else is climbing up the other....and the damage this does to the pre-existing trail is heartbreaking. In this town, the riders who enjoy these particular trails never pedal uphill, and they have serious attitude, rudely mocking and sneering at those of us who ride up anything (f***ing wimps, etc) The bike shop owner and a local tour operator take locals and visitors to an ecologically sensitive canyon to poach rides on private property. (This year, they actually had a story about it in the newspaper before it happened so one of the ranchers called and let the LBS owner know that he and his ranch hands have guns and know how to use them. The gang of riders rode on the other other side of the river - on land owned by a different private owner.)

Worst of all, the group of riders who enjoy the type of riding we enjoy, that is going both ways: up *and* down, were intimidated by the way we had been treated and they all kind of disappeared so they wouldn't get blackballed too. ah, but that's just the nature of people, right?

We eventually decided we couldn't let them steal this from us, and we came back, deciding to ride hard. We both got stronger and faster and gradually redeveloped some of those riding friendships (although not quite as open and trusting) we'd had before. We got our fitness back and we both have become known in town as fast, skilled riders.

Last summer, the Ministry of Forests started removing unauthorized stunts that they had deemed too dangerous (as in built to so poor a standard, they were likely to fall apart under the weight of a rider). The LBS owner and club president spouted all sorts of ridiculous statements in the newspaper, saying the MOF had "gone full nazi" and that they never tried to contact the club.

Turns out the things he said were lies. The ministry had gone to great effort to contact the club, and had acted in a measured, responsible way. They didn't, as had been reported, shut down any trails, they only removed about a dozen stunts. And they encouraged the bikers to form a society to work with the Ministry to create tenures for the trails, which would afford the trails some protection from logging and other activities, and to adhere to a standard for the stunts, which may then allow new stunts and new trails to be built, once the old issues were dealt with.

Several bogus public meetings happened. Some politicians pushed to have our city put money into the club. :confused: They talked about an article in Decline magazine that brings publicity to our city as a destination riding location. That article was all about the rides on the private property in the ecologically sensitive canyon! :mad:

So a new club forms from the ashes. and, oh look, the president has been hushed and stepped aside....and the treasurer, the right hand man, the power hungry former boy scout leader, has risen to the top. we suspect he still takes his orders from the LBS owner. On the executive also are the adventure tour business owners that do nothing but shuttle, they have an interest in the stunts only, and have made it clear that they will not put anything back into the trails.

The new club has a trail maintenance day. They believe that trail maintenance is stunt building. They don't armour side hill, dig water bars, try to make single track single again, nothing like that. Other than stunt building, clearing blowdown debris is their only other type of trail maintenance.

There are new rogue trails this year, even. And the stunts continue to be of poor construction and illegally built - nailed to live trees, etc. They have cut more trees down on more trails to straighten the lines for higher downhill speed.

It is absolutely demoralizing. The people who had tried to be the voices of reason in the club have mostly all quit. No-one has the guts to say NO to these guys.

and the vortex calls.....

DH has even realized he loved doing the Test of Metal in Squamish because it was riding that wasn't *here*. There might be bulls**t there, too, but because we're from out of town, we didn't see it!

So, DH and I have talked about it some. He's also talked with other like-minded riders and they also see what is going on and don't know what to do (or aren't willing to...who can blame them?)

After much talk, his suggestion is this: on the latest rogue trail, a trail that joins up with an established trail, and has deteriorated it more in a few months than in 10 years of use, he's thinking of walking the new trails and spraypainting every stump bright orange.

I like that it would be something that at least some riders would see and wonder about. They might even stop and look. A few of those might ask why did they cut down trees? Even fewer might even get mad enough to say something to someone in the club. At the same time, it's not confrontational or aggressive, and it doesn't take anything away from their "trail"....if it did, they would be soooooo mad!

I'd love it if some of you would weigh in on this issue. Do you think we should paint the stumps? Do you have any other suggestions for saving us from the vortex? Currently I try to keep it from sucking me in mostly by reading all of your positive and encouraging posts. DH keeps it at bay by doing long solo road rides.

We'd really like to have mountain biking back....but don't know if we can do it.

Maybe we should take up golf. :eek:


Namaste,
~T~

One of the parents around here spraypainted every rock and root and stump day-glo orange several years ago-I think they were trying to make the trail safer. Good intentions, but your eye focuses on that paint like no tomorrow so we were all HITTING the hazzards until we got used to ignoring the paint, then it was just really ugly (and really unnecessary) on the trail. Lots of flats and crashes for a while there. You can still see evidence of it but it's finally fading.

Man, I do NOT envy you your position though I have to say kudos for hanging onto what seems to be an unpopular but right one. It really sucks that it's probably a relatively small group of too-influential people that you're fighting the good fight against. Thank goodness trail maintenance around here is to preserve the singletrack as best as possible and build new (with permission). Of course mountains aren't us-who knows what would happen if we had access to incredible downhills? Too bad the trail-wreckers couldn't have an area of their own to wreck and leave the rest of the singletrack alone. A sort of sacrificial lamb to save the rest of the flock.

Well, I'm not telling you to or not to spraypaint. I'm not living your horror. I sure wish I had an answer for you. I'm mentally pushing bunches of best wishes your way!

are you looking for answers or just venting? if you are just venting skip the following...

If you are looking for answers, I'd get IMBA Canada involved ( and your regional rep) , and push education, IMBA has a tremendous amount of material out there for the Freeride crowd now. Photos of how do things "Right" as compared to "wrong" have a whole lot of impact. See if you can get the Canadian Trail Care Crew to come through next summer. They are great- they will come to town for about 4 days, tour the area, meet with higher ups, do public seminars, combined with a public project that is visible.

There is no quick fix. Even if you have a journalist on your side, the people who need educating don't read the newspaper. Our local IMBA rep is a gem of a resource, he's been working with these issues for over 15 years and has a real understanding of how to work with land managers, and to educate people. Unfortunatley the education peice is a slow road.

I use photos a lot... here's a well built stunt, here is something cobbled together. Here is a well designed trail, here is an erosion night mare. Here is what has been done, here is what we will do.. you get the idea.

You've brought up your situation before. The hardest thing I think is when you realize it's becomeing a power game, and not an situation where the greater good is being focused on.


The problem with taking things into your own hands, is that essentially you are doing what they are.

Here, we've gotten very good cooperation with the powers that be... they go in and tear things down, as they have specfically stated they don't mind being the bad guys, and it make us ( the club) be the good guys. We don't have the problems you have, but we have dirt jump diggers that are just trashing the riding area, and there's not a thing we can do about it. The city tears them down, we go in and do clean up work ( filling in craters etc) but then they just rebuild them.

It's certain mentality I've seen, that's very prevalent on the west side of the state here. Build whatever you want, when they tear it down, just find another place to ride and build, rinse, repeat. Dont' bother to talk to anyone,get permission, make a plan.

The hardest thing to do is to decide to commit to get involved, to take action. It could take over your life. And it's a slow road, but ultimately rewarding.

One thing I do is I hang out out on one of the boards where I know a lot of these riders are. Without being negative ( or at least I try to not be negative or deragatory) I talk a lot about what our club is doing, the gains we are making, the LEGAL clearances we've gotten, the clean up and maintenance days, so that people do know what we are doing and that we are working on their behalf.

I net work a lot with other clubs. How do they handle these things? LBTC, here's a link for an interesting article from Kootenay Mountain Culture Magazine. Down in this part of BC they are doing things RIGHT in terms of trail building, mountain bike tourism and so on. The article itself is part of the pdf file, which is the whole most recent issue.
http://www.kmcmag.com/pdf/kmc_summer05.pdf It's a pretty interesting read... how much $$ mountain bike tourism is adding to the economy, working with the provincial government to get trail grants, how many jobs have been created.. but it's all legal trails and builds.

I'm rambling, the coffee kicked in, sorry...

irulan

The big debate in the MTB community - what to do with rogue riders and groups?

I live in a area where most of the major MTB groups are well-respected and partner and share with many environmental groups. I'm a bike docent for The Nature Conservancy. The TNC is all about enjoying wilderness areas and also understanding what makes those areas so appealing is its natural state and beauty. Education about our environment is key. Our lead docents are also members of the Warriors Society and SHARE. Both group activiely promote preservation and trail maintenance. As a result, many areas have been opened up to riders because of these groups willingness to take ownership of the trails and control misuse and inappropriate riding and behavior. HOW? By speaking out. I'm not comfortable doing it, but I will and have said things to riders who are going off trail, partcipating in acts that damage trails (such as clearing rocks and brush, or building alternative trails). Doesn't mean that anyone stops when you say something but if one person stops, that is at least less damage.

My suggestions is that you contact SHARE of The Warriors Society and ask them what can be done to prevent this type of damage and destruction. Sadly, it's a matter of being totally inconsiderate to other users of the trail. I know its hard to say something, but we have to speak up. Sad thing about what was done, in clearing trees, and creating new singletrack, eventually that singletrak will become a doubletrack and then a big ugly road no longer fun to ride on.

I'm originally from Vancouver and I'm also a trailbuilder. Years ago people were just cutting trails and creating stunts that were very unsafe. When the local land managers started removing stunts and closing some trails the mountainbike community (mostly trailbuilders) got together and started the NSMBA www.nsmba.com to organize the builders. They now have a big voice with the local governments and land managers. I would suggest contacting them, talk to Sharon or Lee, they are an incredible wealth of knowledge and may have some ideas.

The trails on the shore don't have the same issues as you can't ride up them but I hate to hear that someone is cutting down live trees. In all of the trailbuilding that I've done I've never cut live trees.

I now live in Colorado and most of the land here is national forest or protected land or private. People still build trails here but if you get caught building you can go to jail. I think that's a bit harsh but it stops the illegal cutting of live trees.

I would suggest building a network of like minded cyclists and win the battle with information not action. Many mountain bikers just don't know about forests and the effect that trails have on erosion. If we didn't have trees and grasses on the mountains, holding all the soil there, we would just have big hunks of rock.

thank you, ladies, and please keep your thoughts and comments comiing.

at this moment, I still have a very heavy heart about the situation.

We've spoken up before and it put our health in jeopardy. This time I think it would encroach on my sanity as well. I simply am not strong enough to do this again.

We never see the destruction taking place. This is a small population area, where, thank goodness, it is rare to see another rider on any given trail, let alone the people who are "building". When we do see a new line on a trail, or a place where the single track is wider than it ought to be, we, and a few other riders we know, will take debris from the forest floor and narrow the trail, or block off the new line.

When we see the dirt jumps, and, yes, we get those here, too...if they are fresh enough we have been known to move the dirt back. However, we don't ride with shovels, so there's a limit to how much we can do.

The "club" here has done a good job of making it seem to the public, the ministries, and other organizations that they are working with all riders, working with land managers and working within IMBA guidelines. It's completely false. They have alienated a whole group of riders, and they continue to encourage rogue trails. In essence, we have a rogue club.

I have a lot of respect for NSMBA, I wil consider making contact. However, I know that club representation has been to their trail building conference for 2 years. It's likely that what I have to say will not be believed. These guys from the club are smooth. really smooth. like selling snake oil.

I suppose that my post may not have been fair. As I think about this, perhaps I really did just want to vent, since my soul becomes hurt each time I try to envision taking the actions that you've all suggested. Your thoughts and ideas are dead on. I just don't have what it takes to do it.

The local guys in the club understand what they are doing. They can see the damage they've caused. They know what the IMBA rules are. They've been exposed to a lot of information about erosion, etc. They simply don't care. The attitude is like that of a parasite. They just ride the **** out of a trail, until it's not ridable anymore, then move on to another one. I don't have what it takes to inform them. I feel powerless.

I apologize for the negativity of this post. You should know that as I write this I have tears in my eyes.

Riding is nealry like a religion to me. The trails are sacred. It's like having hooligans vanadlize my church when I see what they do to the trails.

I would like to be the strong and enlightened person that can continue to work towards good even while the powers against it grow stronger. I'm not that person. I may never be.

thank you for accepting me, anyway.

Namaste,
~T~

There is strength in numbers. You don't have to take this fight on yourself. Are there others in your clubs that agree with you? If so, unite them and together approach the Club Board/Membership to discuss these issues. Please don't just step back into the dark and hope someone else takes on the problem. I know it's hard but someone with your passion should be up for the task!

Perhaps you could start a sort of informal club of those who have been alienated by "The Dark Side". You say they have alienated a whole group of riders. What club do those riders belong to now? If there isn't an alternative, you can always try to start one. It could be as easy as a once a week informal organized ride. If these guys are the only game in town, then they will continue to have all the power.

If your informal group takes off, then you will have the power of a group of people who see the destruction taking place, and who are unhappy about it. I don't think you and your husband should try to take these people on alone, for the sake of both your health and sanity. But if you had more hands to share the work, it might be easier to take some action. You might even find you have some of those natural leader-types in your group, who will take on the organizing and logistical efforts.

What is the local governing body in your area? Maybe a city council? What about the people who own the property these rogue trails are built on? You might want to consider talking to the landowners about civil legal action. I would consider all possible routes. Maybe your city could pass an ordinance against destroying a live tree, and start ticketing people? (Doubtful, but worth a shot). Whatever you do, try to get as many people as possible to help. Surely there must be others out there who feel the way you do.

If you have a local newspaper, perhaps you could "leak" this story to them. I'm sure some intrepid young journalist would love to have the scoop. I'm sure the landowners, other cyclists, environmentalists, etc. would have plenty to say on the subject. Especially if this issue has received poltical attention - that makes it "real news" if they aren't following through and trying to get money for "trail improvements" that are actually destructive.

Something really simple you can do is document what is happening to the forest and trails. Take your camera with you, and take pictures of the stumps and the erosion. Even if you don't take any action now, you will have the "evidence" you need later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcipam

There is strength in numbers. You don't have to take this fight on yourself.

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ah....if only you girls all lived here, then I would truly not be alone!

seriously, other riders here who see what is wrong will whisper about it amongst themselves, but none is willing to speak up. DH and I are branded as intolerant purists, so our influence would be considered detrimental to the possibility of moving forward.

Namaste,
~T~

if anyone has been following NEMBA's purchase of a piece of property (North East Mtb Assos.) here is what they have been up to:

http://www.nemba.org/digitalnemba/Vi...lding2005.html

Ah, Simple. Your suggestions are good, really. And we've tried them.

The unofficial organized ride has been a staple of wednesday nights in this town for eleven years. The core group of people is still the same, and it has never involved the "dark side". We've been here all along. This is the group that disappeared while we were being blackballed. Well meaning, but too afraid to speak up.

The character who owns the evil LBS is a sort of cult figure in town. For some reason no-one will do anything against him. Despite the fact that he is quite openly into the drug scene and has many children and young kids look up to him.

The wife of the current "president" of the official "club" is a city councillor. Nobody really respects her, but I suspect she'll win when she runs for mayor in our next election.

We have given information to government ministries. Only to find out that a ministry official was the club's PR guy.

Our newspaper reporter smokes weed with the bike shop owner. She also ambushed "our" ride last summer, was very agressive with them, then said in the paper that our group was not willing to cooperate.

We pretty much feel like Mulder and Skully. We don't know who to trust.

Oh, yes, and I do have pictures. Even this spring I emailed our city guy with pictures of a half built stunt on city property that used live trees and cut down live trees in its construction. That was months ago. The stunt is still there. Oh, and I cc'd that email to the club executive. The silence has been deafening.

Most of the trails are on crown land. The ones that are on private land are ones that none of our group would ever go near. So they never bother to say anything about those ones either! And, oh, guess who it was who alerted the rancher to the story in the newspaper? Yup, DH just picked up the phone and let him know. At least some action came from that, but it didn't stop the hooligans from just riding on the other guys' land!

Basically, people hope that we will just go away. Hence the threats. And the group we ride with knows that the actions the government ministries are taking are only against stunts. Our group doesn't really care about the stunts - take 'em or leave 'em. Our trails are not about to be shut down by government so we can just keep riding.

During the bogus public meetings, some of our group did show up and speak up....but they were out yelled and out jeered in a crowded room full of little sh***s from out of town. Once the club actually came together we had some good representation on the club. That lasted for about 3 meetings. Once they realized what the club is *actually* doing, they just backed away so as not to be implicated when someone finally discovers it. They learned from our example to not say No.

So we are feeling a lot like we've tried just about everything and our hope has disappeared. Again, I wish you ladies were actually here. Despite the dark side, I'd at least have great people to ride with .... not just DH!

Namaste,
~T~

LB... you've had lots of suggestions here already, and I feel a bit powerless from this distance.
I think I would be inclined to paint the stumps... though I am not saying you should
Sending you positive and feel good and "take heart - be strong" thoughts your way and trusting that the right thing will be the outcome of this, and that many people learn useful lessons from the whole awful mess...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LBTC

We pretty much feel like Mulder and Skully. We don't know who to trust.

Oh, yes, and I do have pictures. Even this spring I emailed our city guy with pictures of a half built stunt on city property that used live trees and cut down live trees in its construction. That was months ago. The stunt is still there. Oh, and I cc'd that email to the club executive. The silence has been deafening.

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Oy. Well, in that case, I don't have any idea what I would do in your situation, other than finding new places to ride. And that option really sucks since it sounds like you have some great trails right nearby. :(

It is so sad when people think land is just there for them to use and abuse and then abandon. It's even worse when those people are in charge of things.

LBTC, I must say this is a difficult situation. I have been around the freeride community for a while now and have seen people that get frustrated with not having enough trails to freeride, have tried to work with the proper agencies (who become concerned that freeriders are punk kids on drugs and are unwilling to work with freeriders), and eventually do their own trailbuilding. There is a full spectrum of riders out there and it is so difficult when you become labelled a punk freerider or a purist, as you've been called.

IMBA has worked with us on a variety of issues and the trailbuilding sessions are great, but it's difficult to maintain the niceties between different types of mountain bikers when they leave.

The big picture is that a variety of mountain biking styles need to be accomodated in some fashion and cooperative planning between different types of riders is essential. Legal freeriding needs to be available, lovely cross country singletrack, downhilling wonder - everything needs to be given consideration. And all need to maintain the ecological integrity of the area.

I do not have a solution for you, but just want to remind you that your voice is important, just as a freeriders voice is also important.

We all need to be vocal and participatory in the "politics" of mountain biking.

Have you ever heard of the term "guerilla within"? Maybe participating in this club, bringing along like-minded friends, and maybe begin to share options with the group that provide a common thread? Building a sense of community.

I hope it gets better for you, I know you are an open minded kind-hearted person from your posts. I can also see the passion you have for cycling, and it seems that you are too passionate to do nothing about it. Hopefully the forum will give you the strength you need to voice another side of mountain biking and encourage others who have been quiet to follow in your footsteps.

Another suggestion is talk to some facilitators in your area that have a passion for mountain biking - they might have some great insight and strategies.

Good luck and please continue venting, we don't you want you sick anymore (let the frustration out so it doesn't fester in your body), especially now that you are riding again!

aw, snowtulip! thank you!

Now I'm all teary eyed for the caring you've shown me!!

Today was rainstorm, sun, rainstorm, sun, so I went to kickboxing and I hit and kicked hard and my body feels so good!

But I had to check this thread and see what else my ladies had to say....and it turns out that my head and heart are still somewhat sad.

I have to say, the last few trail rides I have been on were with one other girl, not a group. I loved that. Very free. I still stopped and fixed some lines here and there. I still chatted about how climbers have the right of way on a trail. I only saw a couple of things that shouldn't have been done, and they weren't that bad. The rides were fun and I was far away from the bull****. I want all of our rides to be like that!

Unfortunately, DH has had the opposite experience on his last 2 trail rides. He's gone with the wednesday group, the riders who supposedly have the same values and riding style, and on one ride, they were actually *helping* that club "president" move wood into the woods to build stunts. DH didn't want to be involved and did an extra loop of riding while they all did that. Not long after the first 3 riders, DH among them, got separated from the rest of the group as no-one said they were going to take a turn. He ended up riding by himself and when he got to the bar for after ride drinks, a couple of the other riders were shmoozing with one of the shuttle operators (who doesn't even have liability insurance!!). She's the one that shuttles them up so they can ride down a climb! So, DH just left. I was heartened when our buddy that has the other LBS also thought it was a bad ride, but that didn't seem to help enough.

Sadly, joining the club is likely not a very helpful option. Everyone in town knows our opinions and does not think we should be involved. On both sides. And so far, each person from our group that has joined we've tried to encourage and tried to be supportive of has either seen what the club is actually doing and then backed away, or has stayed in the group but won't even encourage them to try things another way.....let alone tell them when they're heading down the wrong path.

We're just not a big enough community for us to have any kind of anonymity.

Road riding is starting to seem like a very attractive option. And riding on the road still scares the willies out of me! There's something wonderful and comforting about being in the woods in the dirt and the rocks and the trees! I just love to be there. The road is kind of okay when there isn't traffic, but the logging trucks have started hauling on my favourite route, so I need to find out if the scales are open at any given time to ensure I feel safe out there.

Yup, it's all complicated.

Thank you for your encouragement. I'm humbled.

Especially seeing the adds for Live 8. Man, that Bob Geldof is a saint. They have done an amazing job with their ads! I hope the concerts all go without a hitch and that they can actually have an impact on the world "leaders"....

oh.....I think it's time to have a glass of wine and chill....

Namaste, everyone!

~T~

What a frustrating and upsetting situation to be in! This kind of thing makes me mad - when a small group feel they have the right to spoil everyone elses fun. If this was a school playground they'd be known as bullies and they could be reported to the Head.

At the end of the day we're all cyclists - even the baddies from the LBS - and our passion is to ride bikes. Seems crazy that 2 groups of people who love to do the same thing have been driven apart by their passion rather than being united by it. If only this could be turned round.

Best of luck LBTC - keep us posted on the situation and to quote a great British phrase 'Don't let the b'strds grind you down!'

Liz

Thank you all for your encouragement and support!

The latest in the woods up here is an invitation to the "grand opening" of a trail. This trail is a short downhill with quite a few obstacles, that begins in a residential neighbourhood. Most of the riders who use it, shuttle to the top. Several people who live in the neighbourhood have complained over the years about the terrible noise these riders make when they get ther, music blaring, their hooting and hollering, burning donuts, etc....

This trail is the one where the Ministry of Forests dismantled a number of stunts due to their poor construction, etc. That happened last year. So far, the newly formed "club" has only worked on rebuilding the stunts on this trail, with money they somehow got from the Ministry of Forests.

The invitation was emailed out yesterday, for the opening which will be next Wednesday night at 6:00.

Please note that the one group of riders who has had any opposition to the type of trail building that this club is endorsing (albeit all in theory, no-body is saying much about it), has been meeting to ride every Wednesday night at 6:00 for the past 11 years. The choice of time and date is either and attempt at getting the two groups to work together, or a slap in the face that the Wednesday ride isn't important, nothing is going on that night so it's a good night to do this.

Bear in mind that the Wed group almost never shuttles anywhere and wouldn't really consider riding to this trail. However, if they wanted to ride to it, it would take around a half hour to get there, so, if they choose to ride it next week, they'll miss the opening part of it, or have to change the time of the ride.

All that said, I let DH know about the invitation that arrived in my inbox, not realizing the effect it would have. We had intended to ride with the Wed group last night, but, once that arrived we really didn't want to be around while they talked about the whole thing as if it is good, or comlained about the club or what they are doing, without any intention of doing something about it.

It was rather demoralizing to think about. He's being sucked back into the vortex and currently I'm the one somehow feeling almost cheerful, for reasons I don't understand.

We ended up going on a nice road ride (about 45 km, almost 2 hours, we're guessing probably a total of 3000 ft of climbing, but can't wait to get the Garmin Forerunner 301 so we can find out for sure!). It was a very good ride! He felt better afterward, but has no interest at this point in riding any of the trails here - he only wants to ride trails if it's out of town!

Among the things that has started going through his head is moving away from here. We thought about it way back when when this was much uglier for us, but it was more complicated due to some family constraints that have since been removed. Now that he's mentioned it, we're starting to look at things seriously. The company I work for has a lot of plants in BC, and a friend and riding partner will start work for another plant in a nice area of the province on August 1st. We're going to use part of our vacation time to check out other areas and see what the options might be.

It would be difficult and a HUGE change! I've never lived anywhere else. We have some pretty big commitments (2 house with mortgages - fairly high debt), we have way too much stuff(!) and we both have well paying jobs that will be hard to find elsewhere. But we figure it's worth looking.

I like that the anger and discontent has turned into the possibility of action. But, dont' get me wrong, I'm scared ****less of moving!!

We both know that there are bigger and worse problems that people deal with in life. We haven't got it that bad, and hey, at least we have the option for change!

So that's the update. Thanks again for your support and encouragement!

Hugs all around,
Namaste,
~T~