Vancouver BC vs. Seattle: Urban Debate

At times one of the local universities here has free public lectures on topics related to urban development/design /community sustainability. These topics are growing in popularity. Next year Simon Fraser University will ensure they will book bigger lecture halls to accommodate the burgeoning public interest.

Next wk.'s session should be interesting: it's a public debate between 2 folks on which city is doing better/worse in terms of urban design /community sustainability.
http://www.sfu.ca/city/fpl8popup.htm :D

The same debate (but speakers switching sides) will be delivered in Seattle, on Jun. 18(?). Dunno where. :)

O! Something that is up my alley at the moment :)

Money's on Vancouver, but they're both great examples :D

I'd like to see one between Portland, Frisco and Seattle!

yeah, except for the awful slum that has developed in Vancouver, I'd say you're miles ahead of us.

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Originally Posted by Biciclista

yeah, except for the awful slum that has developed in Vancouver, I'd say you're miles ahead of us.

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that's always been there!

hmmmm incredible public transit, planning for urban density, fourth highest quality of living in the world..... as long as you can afford to buy a house in Vancouver, I think Seattle (and we can't exactly brag about the prices of our real estate...) is beat on all fronts ;).

Seattle vs Portland.... I haven't spent huge amounts of time in Portland, but I've been down a few times. It strikes me that the biggest differences are more attitude... (don't take offense Oregonians... :p). Portland seems like Seattle's successful, but laid back, occasionally pot smoking, small biz owner, little brother while Seattle is the older more straight laced, executive that nags his little bro, but secretly wishes he could be more like him.

I haven't been to San Francisco in my memory (I think I may have been there when I was like 3....) so I can't really comment there.

Would love to live in any of those cities.

Portland seems pretty cool. has tremendous (one of the bestest) cycling community in US.
So does Seattle.
Vancouver? haven't been so can't tell. I hear its very lovely. the bestest cycling routes and community in all of North America.

Affordable housing is a top issue of livability. I don't see much of that in either Vancouver or Seattle.

Shootingstar--I would be interested if those lectures address affordability as one of their criteria for sustainability. Too often, it is ignored.

affordability, or the lack thereof, sure is a factor in most people NOT living in Vancouver. Not sure if the criteria for this discussion is just for Vancouver proper, or Metro Vancouver including many suburbs.

Vancouver itself is certainly out of reach for many people, especially for young families. Housing is deplorable. Real estate is ridiculous when you're paying half a million for a run-down house on a very busy street, or paying $1500 a month for a small apartment.

I don't know Seattle very well, but I know that you basically can't exist without a car. The highway system there is incredible. A bit of an eye-sore, but you can certainly get from one place to another fairly quickly barring the heavy traffic.

Vancouver's streets were never designed to accommodate the number of cars we see now, so it doesn't really matter what time of day you travel, it's pretty congested. The government is trying various initiatives to try to get people to use cars less, but it's still difficult when you need to go outside of Vancouver itself.

I personally can't wait to move out of the city. It's lovely, but I've been here since 1986 and it's changed a lot since then. I'm a country girl at heart.

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Originally Posted by badger

I don't know Seattle very well, but I know that you basically can't exist without a car. The highway system there is incredible. A bit of an eye-sore, but you can certainly get from one place to another fairly quickly barring the heavy traffic.

Vancouver's streets were never designed to accommodate the number of cars we see now, so it doesn't really matter what time of day you travel, it's pretty congested. The government is trying various initiatives to try to get people to use cars less, but it's still difficult when you need to go outside of Vancouver itself.

I personally can't wait to move out of the city. It's lovely, but I've been here since 1986 and it's changed a lot since then. I'm a country girl at heart.

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Based on only cycling around in Seattle during a total of 3 separate different trips, including 1 trip where we did cycle from Port Angeles, into Marysville, Everett, Seattle (over 120+ kms.?) last year, by trying to cycle as much as possible to interconnected bike routes, it would seem (to me) that provided one had strong cycling legs/lungs to deal with long hills (like City of North Vancouver :o), lived in certain neighbourhoods not far from services, stores, used the local transit system wisely, living car-free in Seattle would be possible. Seattle's transit system seems ok..we've used it too plus taking the commuter train out to Tacoma (to see the Glass Museum) with our bikes.

Highway by Seattle's waterfront truly is an awful eyesore. Good idea they created the outdoor sculpture garden as a distraction when walking around in addition to other city sights. Vancouver stopped efforts to build an expressway by its downtown waterfront several decades ago. Badger, City of Vancouver has statistical data which shows daily volume of car traffic going INTO downtown Vancouver, has actually decreased. It's the outbound traffic to the suburbs or traffic within the suburbs, that is increasing.

Toronto at this time, is dismantling, the Gardiner Expressway, a major highway that runs from suburbs directly into downtown by its lake Ontario waterfront. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/644680 Still debate, for more dismantling.

Seattle's downtown district has alot more taller, older brick highrise buildings than Vancouver. However its newer mixed multi-level, highrise condo areas do remind me of similar areas here in downtown Vancouver.

Crazycanuck, Grog led you by bike near the Science World, etc., towards Stanley Park, which is the area that illustrates 'Vancouverism' where architects and developers visit the area, from other countries to see urban design configurations of mixed multi-level housing not far from services, stores cafes, green space, multi-use paths are designed for walkability, etc.

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Originally Posted by badger

don't know Seattle very well, but I know that you basically can't exist without a car.

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???????? I have a car, but I live my daily life mostly car free, and when I do use it, it is a convenience rather than a necessity. I can *walk* to most of the things that I need (groceries, restaurants, library etc) easily bike to even more of them (I bike to work almost exclusively - only take the bus on coach enforced rest days - I have never driven to work!). Our transit system isn't as good as other cities, but it certainly is workable and improving (light rail opens next month!!).

Ironically enough when we really need to use the car, it is mostly to travel to bike races.........

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Originally Posted by Eden

???????? I have a car, but I live my daily life mostly car free, and when I do use it, it is a convenience rather than a necessity. I can *walk* to most of the things that I need (groceries, restaurants, library etc) easily bike to even more of them (I bike to work almost exclusively - only take the bus on coach enforced rest days - I have never driven to work!). Our transit system isn't as good as other cities, but it certainly is workable and improving (light rail opens next month!!).

Ironically enough we really need to use the car, it is mostly to travel to bike races.........

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sorry, that statement was born out of ignorance. My only experience with Seattle is the usual touristy downtown sites and visiting my friend in Bellevue (and there's nothing nearby there, but then Bellevue isn't technically Seattle either, so mea culpa).

Have been to Portland twice, both times we did cycle a few hrs. each day/trip. Each trip was a few days. Latest trip was this past April.

Latest trip we were cycling primarily in Northeast and Southeast quadrants of the city. Since the city is smaller than Seattle and to me, flatter overall than Seattle, it would be easier to persuade more locals to cycle more often. Public transit system seems to be well connected also since we were cycling in the Columbia Gorge area the lst trip where we used public transit part of the way (Tri-Max) but cycled all the way back to downtown on the return. Hey, when one lacks time, public transit blended with cycling, works.

Most definitely the cycling culture of Portland and Seattle "feels" similar to Vancouver, BC.

Have be to San Francisco where 1 trip which was quite short, included cycling just a few hrs. in downtown (and avoiding steep hills. I wasn't in climbing shape that's for sure.). Another day, spent a few hrs. cycling in Sonoma wine country area. So can't comment much about Frisco...um that was over 10 yrs. ago.

Last night attended the fun debate. Video clip of webcasting will probably be available later today or tomorrow.
http://via-architecture.blogspot.com/ If you click on poster, you will see location of Seattle debate.

I learned some things about Seattle:
*didn't know that Seattle's soil was less clay than Vancouver's. Hence, more ability to produce bricks. Brick buildings (for older buildings) to me, was alot less to me when I first moved to Vancouver..compared to Toronto where there are alot of brick buildings. Southern Ontario also used alot more stone in its older buildings.

*Seattle has the neighbourhood councils/dept. embedded into its municipal govn't structure which is a great way for perserving/growing a neighbourhood. Very different from how issues are brought forward and handled by Vancouver municipal govn't.

*didn't know how awful the Alaska Way issue has been dragging out so long.

*that it has taken Seattle 14 yrs. to get its light rapid transit line constructed and running soon.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

*didn't know how awful the Alaska Way issue has been dragging out so long.

*that it has taken Seattle 14 yrs. to get its light rapid transit line constructed and running soon.

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I moved here from out east - and I blame debacles like the Alaskan way viaduct on the initiative system..... everything goes up for a public vote around here and the citizens dither about it for years before they actually pass something...... That's also why the light rail has taken so terribly long and has probably cost millions more than it should have. I sometimes wish someone would just take charge and say alright the city really needs to do this, this is the plan and we're doing it - end of discussion.

Yea, there is a critical point of effective decision-making aligned with strategic consultation combined with vigorous citizen group discussion vs. democratic process carried out to the nth degree.

We rarely have a municipal-wide vote on specific initiatives here. Last time was on how capital budget should be spent. I didn't like the way how the choices were framed on paper for voters..it felt rigged.

For Toronto when I lived there 20+ years, I only dimly remember less total of 3 different times where there was a city wide referendum/vote on specific issues+money allocation.

Now, having said what I observed, one wonders what the local vote would have been for Vancouver as host city for 2010 Olympics..if there had been a vote. But then that's viewed not just a local matter, but with federal involvement and internationally...

...even though now the city will be footing the bill for $$$ millions of building cost overruns. :(

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In the great debate, it was brought out by the Seattle speaker (who was a former councillor for several yrs.), that Seattle doesn't have as much free public waterfront shoreline access compared to Vancouver. He said there is a great deal that is private property.

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Originally Posted by Eden

I moved here from out east - and I blame debacles like the Alaskan way viaduct on the initiative system..... everything goes up for a public vote around here and the citizens dither about it for years before they actually pass something...... That's also why the light rail has taken so terribly long and has probably cost millions more than it should have. I sometimes wish someone would just take charge and say alright the city really needs to do this, this is the plan and we're doing it - end of discussion.

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Amen.

No. Let me edit that. AMEN.

Actually the debate will start today (Thurs.)..at 6:00 pm pacific time in Seattle.

It's being webcasted now (and is starting late). See via architecture web link that I gave earlier in thread. The archived videoclips will be placed on that website later this wk. or so.