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Listening to the BBC on the way home tonight & heard about a useful website regarding names. The lady that runs the website is still collecting names but in the future you never know what you'll find.
It won't help you if you're wondering how to say Abhisit Vejjajiva
www.howtosaythatname.com
That is useful, thanks!
I am sitting at a table at a condo in Sun Valley that until recently I had pronounced with a strong Americanese as
Atelier
At.....lee.....air
Very wrong :)
Ah...till....e....ay
:)
Thanks!
Oh, that's handy! Thanks!
The one I'd been using from the Library of Congress hasn't been updated in three years now, so it's still useful for people who didn't just become famous.
It still doesn't have Abhisit Vejjajiva (although Wikipedia does have an audio file attached to his name; for some reason the characters in their IPA transcription don't display properly in my browser). ;)
but it depends on where you are how things are pronounced. I used to live on a street in Boise, Idaho called ROSSI street and everyone pronounced it ross eye
(except me)
like Moscow, Idaho is not pronounced like Moscow, Russia.
and many many more.
The database takes that into account (e.g., L. Frank Baum is pronounced differently from Martin Baum) - it's partially about where the people live now, but more about where their families are from, and somewhat about personal preference. I pronounce my own last name slightly differently from the way my father does!Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
DH likes to laugh at the way Ohioans (aka Ahahns) pronounce the names of places that are named after foreign cities. I'd have more patience for this prejudice if he actually pronounced the unvoiced double "T" in his own Italian-derived last name. :rolleyes:
and to add to my own confusion, my own name.
In Italy, the ch is pronounced K
At Ellis Island, my grandfather was told our name would now
have the ch sound as in cheese.
this wasn't uniform, and depending on who you ask, the name has other pronunciations.
My brother is the only male who carried on the family name and had sons.
his son calls himself this name
with a SH sound!! I corrected him but he ignored me. it's HIS name.
Just curious. Then how are Americans supposed to pronounce Moscow, Idaho? (I know, I didn't ask how are non-Americans supposed to pronounce it. It's a place in Idaho that many non-Americans wouldn't use in daily language or at all because they didn't know the place with this same name spelling existed in the U.S.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
Until I started working for a German company I wasn't that sensitive that many German names/words starting with "J", are pronounced as: Y (yu.....) not as a hard "J".
ANd it is grating to the ear to hear Americans pronounce Iraq as "EYE-RACK". Prior to the war, I've always understood as 'EER-RACK". Hopefully the Iraquis themselves, have stuck to their own pronounciation when they speak English and used prior to war. I'd rather follow pronounciation of the originating country for the name itself. Americanization of original foreign words isn't necessarily the good thing. Other non-English languages slide a number of vowels and consonants together or have accent/tonal inflections that are miniscule but highly critical that it can alter the meaning of word if enunciated incorrectly.
Therefore Jeanne, is not "Jean", as with a hard "N" for the Anglo version. Jeanne pronounciation for this original French feminine name: GEHNN. Soft sliding "J", as in "gentle", with a short "E" (not long "E"), longer drawn-out "N".
I guess I'm a stickler for pronounciation....after memories of learning English as a second language from kindergarten to Gr. 2. Many phoenetic drills to correct my consonant blends of str, th, sh, sch, ch, r, etc. common problems for people with mother tongue language of Chinese. Even though I was born and raised in Canada.
MoscO
you don't pronounce the w
... so when you're speaking in English, how do you say "China?" "Germany?" "Italy?" "Paris?" "Spain?" "Barcelona?" Etc., etc., etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by shootingstar
Most European countries had different names in English before the Americas were even colonized. And likewise, in their own languages they said "Angleterre," "Inglaterra," "Inghilterra," etc., for the country that called itself England. So it's not like this is a new thing. It's probably the same thing with Asian countries and languages, I just don't know any. (Well, I DO know that "China" and "Japan" are not names that are used in China or Japan!) As I understand it, Moscow, Russia, is pronounced (and spelled) "Moskva" in Russian - no terminal "o" and no issue whether it's pronounced "ow" or "oh."
IMO it sounds really affected when people pronounce foreign place names using sounds that aren't used (at all, or in a particular sequence) in English. Yes, that's the correct way to say the place names in the respective language, but it's essentially inserting a foreign word into an English sentence.
yep, this is the tower of babel here. No right answers. And it sounds strange to me to say "Naples" instead of Napoli.
Most Americans have NO idea that all people in other cities (and countries) in the world spell and pronounce their place names differently than WE do.
No, Oak, we follow the pronounication of what the majority of Iraquis themselves when they speak English. So the big question was how they pronounced "Iraq" in English before the war existed, before many Americans even knew a place like Iraq existed in their minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by shootingstar
By the way, the French spelling of 'Jeanne' is genuinely a legal name can be/ is used by someone whose first language is English. Therefore it's actually more graceful to pronounce it as the French did if one wishes to use that spelling.
If people in Tawain ask me to address the name of their country as Tawain, instead of China...which a highly loaded political perspective, then I would bend to their wishes. If people in Hong Kong, prefer to refer Hong Kong instead of China, if one is there, then I would adjust my name reference of their "territory" accordingly. I am not the citizen/resident of that area and have no right to impose linguistically what I believe is the correct English term.
For names of people and names of countries, it's best that the correct English pronounciation should be led by the owners of that name. If not, then default to whatever "dialect" version, whatever pronounciation deviations occur.
We ask immigrants to master English so they can compete in for educational spots, jobs and to make themselves understood for social acceptance. There is alot of pressure to assimilate to the English-speaking world.. at a high price which is loss of the mother tongue...which leads to generational divides/gaps/serious communication conflicts. And by the same token, from us, as dominant English speakers, it can't be too much to ask us to integrate proper pronounciation of their names as they would prefer of English /unilingual speakers.
Anyway, we still haven't helped Crazycanuck with her original question.
Maybe if one knew the original language of the name it would help immensely with the pronunciation.
By now, I have mastered for German that Joop, Joachim, Jurgen, ..is Y.. pretty small potatoes. And Jacob, would have been totally acceptable in English dialogue with this German firm, with "Y" instead of hard "J" pronounciation, where I was in the suburbs of Vancouver. 1/4 of business conversation was in German, no English translation going on. So the German "Georg" is not George. It is hard "G", followed by "airg". A very common German male name. I was embarrassed I said George for first few months to this one engineer who said nothing to correct me. (He was probably tired of correcting people.) Once, I did use his correct German name pronounciation, he seemed to instinctively respond more quickly to me in conversation.
The website I linked to is specific to the individual, as I said, though a little dated. It explains the three different pronounciations of Ann Beattie, Bob Beattie and Robert Beattie, for example....
I think the one CC linked to has some specific names and some general rules for names of people who aren't famous or who haven't gone into the database yet.
I'm still trying to figure out whether Valentino Rossi meant a not-so-subtle dig at his teammate this weekend when he pronounced his name "YOR-gay." That's neither an Italian nor a Spanish pronounciation! They've been teammates long enough that Vale knows how to say Jorge, I'm sure...
Versailles, pronounced Ver-sails. That grates on my ears every time I hear it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
How you pronounce place names in a foreign country is interesting. Even 4 letter Oslo has an established pronounciation in English (Oz-low), that is quite different from the Norwegian (oosh-lou). Speaking English I use the English pronounciation, and yes, I'd think it a bit affected if English speakers used the Norwegian pronounciation. It would be like me talking about Paris as "Paree" because that's how the French say it.
But not many places in Norway have an established English pronounciation as far as I know, probably because we're a small country that doesn't figure much in the news or the history books ;) And only a handful of towns that can pass for cities. For all these other place names I'd prefer English speakers to at least attempt the Norwegian pronounciation, because the on-the-spot Americanization sounds awful to my ears.
So for some reason that doesn't sound affected, just respectful. I have no idea why I sense a difference.
We also have some very heavy dialects here, which can lead to place names officially called one thing and locally called something almost completely different. Even I don't know if I should try to attempt the local dialect or not! :D Either way I'd be laughed at as a city girl...
Versailles, Lima, Milan, Bellefontaine, Bremen, Gallipolis, Gnadenhutten, even Toledo... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Owlie
It goes the other way, too. When I visited my sister in Dallas this fall, it turns out that one of her riding buddies grew up near where I live now. We were talking about the area, people we knew in common, things that had changed, when I said something about Newark. He pounced on the name like a thirsty man with a glass of water. "Nerk! You said Nerk!" he said. :p
Oh dear...for that gorgeous palace it MUST be French pronunciation to capture its glory. "Ver-sigh". Like the Bridge of Sighs in Venice. The English language to me is a less emotional sounding, less poetic sounding language in many of its words, compared to French, Italian or Spanish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Owlie
I said less "poetic", "emotional" in how English language sounds to the ear....before all the unilingual English speakers jump in.
Don't worry, we know how to pronounce the name of the place with the palace.Quote:
Originally Posted by shootingstar
There's no palace in VerSAILS, Ohio.
There's no piazza in MILE-an, Ohio.
There are no mountains in LIME-a, Ohio (pronounced like the beans, for that matter) and no fountain in BelFOUNtain, Ohio.
And if you want to pronounce the name of our state Oh-hi-oh, we won't correct you. ;)
But for sheer poetry, read some Gerard Manley Hopkins some time (who was not from Ohio :rolleyes:)...
Don't you mean the Ponte dei sospiri? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by shootingstar
It depends on which country and region of a country, plus audience if a person should speak primarily English but insert a foreign word.Quote:
Originally Posted by lph
LPH if you went to various parts of Canada to discuss in English about the "coureurs des bois" (no pronounciation of s) or the fur traders in Canadian history it would be entirely appropriate. The listener might have to know/be informed that use of coureurs des bois within a whole English conversation, is respectful because it is a respectful acknowledgement of the historical legacy of the fur traders from France that helped map and explore Canada in the 17th century onward. After all, Canada historically...was named "New France", thanks to Jacques Cartier (or maybe there was some other French dude) before "Canada" was constitutionally formed in 1876 (joining of Upper Canada now Ontario and Lower Canada, now Quebec, plus other provincial team members).
http://www.canadiana.org/hbc/stories/coureurs1_e.html
It would be a shame to refer to the Quebecois meat pie, as a "meat pie "instead of tourtiere in normal English language conversation. How boring. But agree, if use the original term, at least use it in a natural, unself conscious way and with correct pronunciation.
But then there are some of us who already get plopped into social situations who mix English with their 2nd/mother tongue in the whole dialogue simply because we are desperate to be understood. :D
My mother dislikes her English name, Susan. My father chose it for her when she first immigrated here. She prefers an English speaker refer to her Chinese first name: "So Chuk".
I'm from southern Ohio, so Versailles was the first thing that popped into my head. But Lima and Toledo, those are the other two that bug me--thanks, five years of school Spanish.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
I remember watching a Food Network show that explained the origin of beignet..and amazed that the American show didn't even acknowledge it came originally from French cuisine,....which is a term in its original French word is also used in southern Germany. Not surprising since that Alsace in France used to be part a Germanic state.
The narrator just explained when beignets were introduced into the U.S....now the doughnut.
Of course, I bow deeply to the French and southern Germans, that beignets are NOT at all like the doughnuts that we associate here in North America. I only know this because my German partner's mother used to make them.
We do use the original foreign language word for same thing in English language dialogue, a certain noodle stir-fry dish has a completely different word when one talks about CHinese cuisine, Japanese cuisnes or Thai cuisine. There are some dishes that are exactly the same in execution, ingredients and taste across those 3 countires.
New Orleans beignets are exactly like doughnuts, except for the shape. And the fact that there's nowhere else in the USA (that I know of) that you can get doughnuts fried to order.
What are they like in France and Germany?
According to dearie, I am wrong, the southern Germans call them, 'berliners'. :o There's a way of pronouncing 'berliners' in German, that isn't so hard sounding as in English.Quote:
Originally Posted by OakLeaf
They are always made of yeast based dough, dusted with sugar and cinnamon and inside have a fruit jam filling.
I haven't yet tried a beignet in France.
German puff pastry is a completely different word than the French word for puff pastry, which I'm not even sure what the latter is. I would have to consult a dictionary for German to spell it out. Most definitely with Germans who speak English during the whole evening, it would be better to use the German puff pastry word. Just like the French, they too, are proud of the gourmet art and craft of handmade puff pastry from scratch.
There are certain concepts/words that denote historical legacy, cultural pride and craftsmanship/skill/artistry that originated in mother country, where it is better to learn and use the word for it when you are talking about that thing in English.
Hmmm. That never occurred to me, that the beignets I had in "N'Orlens" were a direct derivative of berlinerboller (jelly-filled doughnuts here in Norway, and I think also in Germany). Same basic cooking technique, yes, but different size, shape, and taste. Both very good, tho. :p And though JFK declared himself to be one ("Ich bin ein berliner!"), nobody really thinks he meant he was a beignet either. :rolleyes:
I don't remember jelly in my beignets in NOLA?
Karen
HooooWee!Quote:
Originally Posted by lph
In the late 70s when I did study abroad in Norway, we foreign students were admonished by all the language teachers to avoid that palatalized "oosh-lou" even though we heard it everywhere.
Now I feel about as ancient as Ibsen.