Wind, rider weight, & spokes

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03-20-2009, 04:18 AM
Miranda

Wind, rider weight, & spokes

This is somewhat of a gear question, but also a couple other factors, so I'm going to try posting here...

In researching different wheelsets, I started to notice some re-occurring comments about bladed spokes. One was that in a crosswind, the spokes can be a negative in terms of additional resistance. Particularly if the rider is light weight.

I try to keep my weight averaged between 115-120#s (5' 4 1/2" tall btw). My current bike has round two paired spokes. There have been times in a crosswind, I really thought I was going over. Obviously, there is the situation where if the wind is really strong, no gear or amount of rider weight matters (Mother Nature wins out).

The whole bike will be lighter than my ride now. I was leaning towards a wheelset with bladed spokes, but NOW this has me wondering:confused:... and asking my TE friend's advice;).

How much do the spokes really matter for those of that are light weight, and have low weight bikes?

TYIA:)
03-20-2009, 06:02 AM
indysteel

I'm about your size and decided against bladed spokes when I had my custom wheels made for that very reason.
03-20-2009, 06:31 AM
Eden

I think deep rims make more of a difference than bladed spokes. My race bike has bladed spokes and I don't notice it being harder handle in a cross wind than my other bikes. At 5' nothing and about 105 I'm pretty easy to push around.
03-20-2009, 06:33 AM
SheFly

I agree with Eden. The deeper rims are more of an issue in a cross wind than the bladed spokes. I ride several different wheel sets with bladed spokes and don't have an issue (full disclosure, I'm also 5'10" and 150 lbs).

SheFly
03-20-2009, 06:52 AM
Veronica

At 150 pounds, riding along the spine of a ridge, I definitely felt the wind pushing me around a bit when my wheels had bladed spokes. I guess a lot depends on how much wind and where you are because that was the only time I really felt the effects of a crosswind.

Veronica
03-20-2009, 07:18 AM
Bluetree

I fit that criteria. I'm about 110 lbs and my bike weighs 14.3-14.8 depending on the choice of wheelset.

Personally, I love the bladed spokes. My favorite all-around wheelsets are the Fulcrum Racing Zeros/Ones and I've never had problems with wind that I wouldn't have with non-bladed spokes. They are also some of my favorite climbing wheels because they handle descents so well. As others have said, wind becomes more of an issue with deeper rims or, in my case, ultra light wheelsets that run 1000-1200g (like the Reynolds KOM). For some reason, my tires never felt stuck to the road when they got to a certain lightness and made me feel squirrely in the wind.

That said, I'd have to caution you if aero-bladed wheels will be your only set. The surfaces scratch easily and can get grungy looking if on bad roads, and require more clean-up care to prevent corrosion, especially near coastal areas. On top of that, if one of my Fulcrum spokes gets damaged, it costs $40 per spoke to get it replaced. Something to think about.
03-20-2009, 07:27 AM
Miranda

Rim Depth

OK... thx for that feedback thus far. I have not really geeked out all the aspects of the wheels in making the decision. Thus, I'm still in the gathering info/education mode. But, talk to a bit more about the rim depth issue if anyone pops back on that mentioned it, or knows. (Later today, I will ask Mr. Google and Sheldon too... and my lbs of course that's pending the sale)

Off the top of my head, I'm guessing: deeper rims = more stability? :confused:

That is also a good point about where you are riding. My routes are in the rual county areas. Think MidWest open farm fields... corn, beans, and wheat (tall corn near harvest time does break some wind). I try to pick routes that are less car traveled. Sometimes I have to travel the busy ones to get to a dead quite road though. On the rual roads, the average speed limit for cars is 45-55mph (not counting road rage bike hating speed demons). The shoulder is not rideable to get off on the road bike tires (loose gravel/field dirt run off etc.). Basically, I just try to hold my line as straight at possible and pray as the cars pass. Thus, why I'm geeking out my wheels a bit more.

I know lots of peeps ride the bladed spokes. Just like some of you smaller ladies have posted do it. Sounds like the rim is the bigger factor.

EDIT ADD: Also, I have heard that the blades are noisey? Any ops?
03-20-2009, 07:36 AM
Miranda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluetree

That said, I'd have to caution you if aero-bladed wheels will be your only set. The surfaces scratch easily and can get grungy looking if on bad roads, and require more clean-up care to prevent corrosion, especially near coastal areas. On top of that, if one of my Fulcrum spokes gets damaged, it costs $40 per spoke to get it replaced. Something to think about.

Thx, that's a good consideration. Yes, they will be my only set to start ($ going into overall bike). My rual roads are a lot of chip and seal. Sometimes they put that nasty gravel over-lay. Those I try to avoid when I know about it. So, no... my pavement is not a smooth road dedicated bike lane (*dreams of in bike heaven*).
03-20-2009, 07:50 AM
Bluetree

I wish my camera was working so I can show what gravel can do. I have an old pair of Fulcrum 3s, which I use in the rain or just after a rain when there is a lot of debris in the road. (They have the same aero blades as my nicer wheels, but they are much cheaper version and weigh a ton.) The surfaces of the blades are chipped and scuffed, and they look a bit worse for wear. That is all cosmetic, however, as the wheels themselves are bomb-proof. I would never put on my nice wheels if I thought the roads were yucky, I'm too much of a prima donna about my gear.

And no, the noise is negligible. Deep dish rims and disk wheels are much noisier (although personally, I love the sound... Whoosh! Whoosh!)
03-20-2009, 08:56 AM
indysteel

I would add that I live in central Indiana. Minus the short period where the corn is high, wind is an issue on a lot of our rides, so for me, cutting down on the effect of crosswinds makes an issue. Unfortunately, I have not been able to compare apples to apples when it comes to my different wheels sets. The set of wheels I have with bladed spokes are a lot heavier and not nearly as nice as my handbuilts. It could be that if I had a lightweight set of wheels built with bladed spokes, I'd like them just as well in the wind.
03-20-2009, 09:42 AM
spokewench

I'm 125 pounds 5'4". I used to ride regular round spoked old style wheels on a Bridgestone RB-1 steel bike (Heavy) and more slack geometry. It was great in the wind, downhill, etc., but sucked going uphill.

I finally bit the bullet a couple of years ago and bought a Giant Carbon fiber bike (really light, faster geometry) with bladed spokes and larger rim size. And, I live in Flagstaff Arizona. We are notorious for HIGH, High Winds in the spring and most of the year for that matter!

It took me a bit to get used to this bike - it moves fast when it gets hit by crosswinds; and sometimes is a bit scary even to me and I've been riding for years. I'm finally used to it and compensate for the wind movement as best as possible, but I know I'm going to dance around a bit when it is windy!

spoke
03-20-2009, 10:27 AM
aicabsolut

No, a deeper rim is NOT more stable (in a crosswind) in terms of the amount of lateral push you'll feel. However, there are a lot of factors built into your decision.

1) Weight. You are a light rider (for comparison, I'm 5'7" and around 125lbs), and you are about to shed even more weight with your bike. A lot of moderately deep rims are still pretty light, because they tend to be more race-type wheels. Light weight overall means you can get pushed around a fair bit. A light and deep wheelset, particularly a light and deep front wheel will feel the most unstable.

2) Aerodynamics. For some, the added aerodynamic benefit of a deep rim outweighs increased difficulty in handling during strong crosswinds. So for your wide open flat road riding, a deep rim is nice, because when you get those puppies up to speed, it is a lot easier to maintain that speed. (Fewer watts needed, meaning less rider fatigue). It won't necessarily make you faster, but you can be fast for longer. Add some light weight to that aerodynamics, and you can also spin up to speed faster.

3) Surface area and handling. This factor goes with #1 but focusing more on depth and bladed spokes rather than weight. Bladed spokes and/or a deeper rim will feel different than a shallow rim (rounded or square-ish) and rounded spokes, but more surface area doesn't necessarily mean worse handling. The shallow rim / round spoke wheel can feel a lot more JERKY in a crosswind (like the wind grabs you and flings you around), while bladed spokes and/or a deep rim with feel like you're getting a consistent sideways push. For the most part, I prefer the feel of the latter. It takes some getting used to, but I generally feel like it's easier to control.

There's one exception to that last statement, and that's when you've gone a little too light and a little too deep with the front wheel for your (including bike) weight and the strength of the crosswind. That can lead to a very unnerving front end shimmy (especially at high speeds, like when descending--and you will descend faster because you're more aero) going along with the otherwise not so scary lateral push.

For a lightweight rider, I would not recommend having deep wheels as your only wheelset. I don't see a problem with having bladed spokes by themselves, however, but that might depend on the individual wheel. For example, some shallower wheels might handle poorly in crosswinds because of overall design, and bladed spokes don't help (I'm thinking higher end Ksyriums here). Some of that may be that not all bladed spokes are created equal. Some are round at the nipple and taper into a blade and then back to round. My wheels, on the other hand, only have flat spokes exposed. They are laced continuously through the hub (10 spokes look like 20), and the ends are hidden (attach to the clincher rim) by a deep carbon fairing. So, the wind behaves consistently over the whole length of the spoke versus the ones that have some not so bladed parts exposed.

There are plenty of days where I will not take my deep wheels outside. This week, the wind picked up a lot after I was already out, and so I had to be extra cautious on descents. I haven't figured out if it's better to weight the front end more with my body or to lighten up on it and keep my weight back like I normally would in those conditions.

For some reason, my rear Shimano training wheel doesn't sit centered on my new bike (it's really close to one chainstay), and I'm not liking having to take out the old bike when it's windy just because of the wheel choice. So, one of these days, I'll build up a light, shallow climbing wheelset for the new bike and use it also on very windy days. But I digress...

If you do need to have your "good" wheelset be your primary wheelset, and an aerodynamic advantage is important to you, then I recommend going deeper in the rim profile in the rear than the front. For example, Zipp used to make a "343" wheelset, but you can mix and match that brand and some others that make basically the same wheel in different depths. The 343 was a 303 front and 404 rear. You get some of the good aerodynamics of the 404, but while the 303 front wheel is even lighter, it is a much shallower and easier to control. The tradeoff is losing the full aero benefit of a 404 set.
03-20-2009, 11:04 AM
Bluetree

I have to agree with everything aicabsolut wrote.

I'd like to add, however, that when you get into the whys and details of aero wheels, I probably would not recommend it if you are looking for something that will be your primary ride. Deep rims, in particular, only make a lot of sense if you're planning to race. And even in those cases, most racers have different sets of "training" wheels and "race" wheels.

If you're building up a new bike and planning on riding on a lot of chip and seal roads, I would go with something more general/dependable as your primary wheelset. Then, as you get faster and look for ways to improve, you can zero in on the details, whether it be wheels with aero spokes or deeper rims. It will also give you time to borrow other peoples' wheelsets and see for yourself what you like and what will work best for you.

One of the main reasons I wanted to go for a 700c bike (as opposed to 650c) is that I wanted to try out as many kinds of wheels as possible. Hooking up with a large club with an active race team (with a sizable Campy cult) gave me that opportunity. I've been able to borrow wheels to see how they could or would not work for me. There are also a number of bike shops that will let me test out wheels, too. Maybe you can look into something like that.

Good luck!
03-20-2009, 11:41 AM
indysteel

Wow; this thread has been most imformative. Thanks, ladies!
03-20-2009, 05:10 PM
Miranda

Quote:

Originally Posted by indysteel

Wow; this thread has been most imformative. Thanks, ladies!

Wow! Indysteel, you got that right. :cool:

OK, I need to digest this info. Very helpful indeed. Thank you for taking the time to post it:).
03-22-2009, 10:16 PM
fidlfreek

Aicabsolut is an awesome resource!!! I now want a Zipp 343 wheelset...:( Not need, just want...but oh well.

Miranda what bike did you decide on?! I'm so thrilled you have something on order. Yeah!

I am also small/light and would recommend you get a good quality, basic, alloy wheelset - forget this blingy Mavic stuff or anything carbon. Pricier to fix and at our weight the bladed spokes and deep dish rims are just trouble. The more you spend the lighter the wheelset will be generally. I found an Easton EA90 SLX (1398 grams for the set) for about $500. The lighter weight helps with climbing and at our weight we can afford to run a feather weight wheelset without worrying a lot about it failing. They will be a great training/everyday wheelset. Save your $$ and buy really blingy wheels later! If you haven't already go check out the reviews on roadbikereview.com. Good info there. And remember, you and me aren't going to have the same issues of flex and maintenance on a light wheelset as a super aggressive big guy rider - so don't sweat their negative reviews.
03-23-2009, 09:17 AM
sundial

I don't have an aerodynamic wheel set but I do have Mavic Ksyrium SL on my Roubaix and essentially they are bomb proof--no truing the spokes for at least 2 years. :cool:
03-23-2009, 06:07 PM
aicabsolut

Definitely take online reviews with a grain of salt. It seems like every wheel has some major problem with breaking spokes and flex and whatnot, going by what people say online. You need to consider that there are a lot of large guys writing those negative reviews who put a lot more stress on wheels than you will.
03-24-2009, 06:55 AM
Cataboo

Miranda,

I gotta say - you're going to be the best researched, best.... bike buyer ever. 'cause I've never even thought about a lot of the stuff that you post threads on.

I have a set of 100 mm "heavy" carbon wheels... In a cross wind or in the wind, I find it pretty freaky. I also don't have much rake on the front fork of the bike that I use those wheels with, so it doesn't take much and it feels like my bike is pushed all over the place. I'm short, but not as light as you.

It's not so pleasant. I have a spare set of wheels that I use when it's windy, except I never seem to realize it's windy till I'm a few miles away.
03-27-2009, 05:59 PM
Miranda

:)Thx to those of you that posted some more info after the last time I wrote in here. I read some, then took me a bit to get back to the pc/thread.

Yes... I would agree. Lighter gals do not have the same issues as heavy guy hammer heads. I think it would be pretty hard for us to blow up a wheelset in comparison.

Oh, and yes... I'm a gear geek it out to the max shopper:o. I'm still tainted and scorned from my original bike buying experience. Thus, I never buy any bike gear without consulting the wise words of my cyber pals here on TE.

And as far as my bike ordering/buying, that's been put on the hold for the moment, unfortunately *sigh*. Just as I was done geeking out my choices, I had a mishap and broke a bone in my foot:eek::mad::(!

What awful timing with Spring *finally* here. But, I'll try to behave while I heal and be patient.
03-27-2009, 06:45 PM
OakLeaf

Owie Miranda, heal quick! :(
03-27-2009, 07:21 PM
Miranda

Quote:

Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Owie Miranda, heal quick! :(

Thx Oakleaf:cool:. When the first doc said 6-8wks normally for a bone to heal I kinda wanted to cry:(. Not because of physical pain either. But, the ortho surg doc said a couple weeks I could try some stuff taking it easy if I felt ok. Having stiff bike shoes that don't let the foot flex is to my advantage. Versus if I were a runner with this same injury.
03-30-2009, 10:42 AM
fidlfreek

Oh so sad!!!! It will give you plenty of time to get the bike built though! That can take a while and is frustrating...
03-31-2009, 02:48 PM
Miranda

Quote:

Originally Posted by fidlfreek

Oh so sad!!!! It will give you plenty of time to get the bike built though! That can take a while and is frustrating...

Thx that is a really good point. I was just thinking today... do I wait until I am healed, then proceed... or proceed now assuming it could take a while to get it. Seems like last I checked service was 1-2 weeks out.

Then today I saw a sure sign of spring. One of my yard bushes was shedding bloom buds preparing for leaves. I thought, "hmm, little bush are you trying to tell me something about my bike decision, or what?" lol.
04-03-2009, 09:56 AM
fidlfreek

Definitely get it started. :) Spring has been here in TX for a few weeks now and I'm loving having the new bike...
04-04-2009, 12:12 AM
madscot13

I have my eye on a pair of William's wheels. My window shopping eye. http://www.williamscycling.com/
04-04-2009, 10:27 AM
fidlfreek

Hey WOW thats a great deal! And good RoadBikeReviews too!
04-04-2009, 09:44 PM
MartianDestiny

Quote:

Originally Posted by aicabsolut

For a lightweight rider, I would not recommend having deep wheels as your only wheelset. I don't see a problem with having bladed spokes by themselves, however, but that might depend on the individual wheel. For example, some shallower wheels might handle poorly in crosswinds because of overall design, and bladed spokes don't help (I'm thinking higher end Ksyriums here). Some of that may be that not all bladed spokes are created equal.

Hey Aicabsolut,

It interests me that you specifically mention Mavics here. I've been noticing that my nice new carbon baby is a royal bear to handle in cross winds (which seem to be a constant issue in CO). I haven't ate it yet, but I've had some scary moments (I'm a wimp) especially descending or when very exposed.

I wrote this off a being to to a MUCH lighter, much more responsive frameset. I imagine that has something to do with it still, but I'm now wondering if the Mavics might be to blame (Krysium Equips).

Are these known to be worse than average in crosswinds? I admit I like the looks of bladed spokes, but the wheels were on my "to upgrade eventually" list anyway. I was planning on just going to a higher end Mavic; is there something better out there for 5' 130lbs (me plus bike) crowd? I love the look of the Zipps, but I'll be a one wheelset sort of girl (I'll keep the Mavics, but sounds like they aren't good crosswind wheels either) and I can't see running deep rims as an only wheelset with the Colorado crosswinds!
04-05-2009, 02:55 PM
madscot13

Quote:

Originally Posted by fidlfreek

Hey WOW thats a great deal! And good RoadBikeReviews too!

I know! and other online reviewers say they are pretty good and that the company ie Keith is incredible dependable for customer service.

I think 19's will fit the bill until I start my imaginary racing career- oh wait what does bike versus car racing count as? I guess I just like the classic look and I don't think they are as likely to get pilfered. Plus I don't really think I am likely to faster on the 30's.
04-06-2009, 07:21 PM
aicabsolut

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartianDestiny

Hey Aicabsolut,

It interests me that you specifically mention Mavics here. I've been noticing that my nice new carbon baby is a royal bear to handle in cross winds (which seem to be a constant issue in CO). I haven't ate it yet, but I've had some scary moments (I'm a wimp) especially descending or when very exposed.

I wrote this off a being to to a MUCH lighter, much more responsive frameset. I imagine that has something to do with it still, but I'm now wondering if the Mavics might be to blame (Krysium Equips).

Are these known to be worse than average in crosswinds? I admit I like the looks of bladed spokes, but the wheels were on my "to upgrade eventually" list anyway. I was planning on just going to a higher end Mavic; is there something better out there for 5' 130lbs (me plus bike) crowd? I love the look of the Zipps, but I'll be a one wheelset sort of girl (I'll keep the Mavics, but sounds like they aren't good crosswind wheels either) and I can't see running deep rims as an only wheelset with the Colorado crosswinds!

I can get a pretty good deal on Mavic wheels from my sponsor shop, so I asked around about them before I bought race wheels this year. The feedback I got (from guys, mostly) was that Ksyriums with bladed spokes suck in crosswinds. I did a test ride on an old set of Ksyrium SSC SL's, and they were great, but the wind was calm. I also tend to see a lot more old (at least 2 yrs old) Ksyriums out on the road than I do newer models. I wonder why.

Anyway, the general consensus was that Ksyriums with bladed spokes were annoyingly jerky in a crosswind, while deep dish wheels would just give a solid lateral push (that you can lean against).

I raced last weekend in gusts up to about 30mph (they were 50mph earlier in the day, but died down to probably 25-30 at the worst when I was on the road), and I decided to go with my Mavic Cosmic Carbone SLR's (with bladed carbon spokes). There was more real estate with headwind or tailwind on the course than crosswinds, and I needed the extra gear I had on that cassette over my backup for a significant climb. A couple of times, I had to really work to hold my line, and one sustained crosswind made me lean really hard to the left, but I survived. I don't think I would've been able to keep going full-tilt on my training wheels when a big gust came up, either. I'm very glad I had those rims on when I was fighting the headwind and needed to get up that climb.

My Carbones are approximately as deep as 404s. Sometimes, it would be nice to have a slightly shallower rim (like a 303) on the front. The front gets extra squirrely because it is ridiculously light.