Intersection navigation questions

I ride with a few friends, and we are having a difference of opinion about how to go through an intersection that is on one of our rides.

The intersection has one lane going straight through in each direction plus a turn lane on each side of the lane. It is on a hill, and there are often several cars waiting for the light to turn. My friends do not like stopping on the hill, so they go inbetween the cars in the lane going straight and the right turn lane, so they are sometimes fitting themselves inbetween two lanes of cars until they get to the front where there is space for them. I just can't bring myself to do that and get in line behind the cars. Of course, then I am slow getting started on the hill, but I stay to the right side of the lane and cars can get around me pretty well - or not, but I still don't see that there is any other way to do it.

I have always said that we are supposed to behave like a car and follow the same rules the cars do, and they agree, but then do the same thing next time. Input please. There is no way to avoid this intersection on this ride.

And, while I am at it.... How about a large, very busy highway with a grassy median between 2 lanes on each side. At the place where we cross, there is an unmarked paved turning area between the lanes for u-turns and turns onto access roads on each side of the highway. We usually have to go halfway across the highway and wait in the unmarked paved turning area until traffic allows us to cross the rest of the way. Where should we wait in that halfway area? I would rather wait all the way to the far right so that cars have plenty of room to turn in the rest of the area.

Most of our ride is low traffic, but these two places can be tricky.

Grits,
It's a little hard to envision your second intersection description, but perhaps you will find some helpful information on one of these pages:
http://bicyclesafe.com/
http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/chapter3a.htm

You should do whatever it takes to stay safe when negotiating intersections. It sounds to me like your friends have put convenience ahead of safety. They should NOT be riding between two lanes of traffic in order to move ahead of the cars at an intersection, hill or no hill. Eventually some car will suddenly decide to change lanes and will turn right into them because the driver was not expecting a bike to be riding where there was no lane. It won't much matter who had the right of way, but you know who will be the more injured between car driver and bike rider.

Stick to your guns and stay safe. :)

I always act just like a car as I move through an intersection. After passing through safely, I return back to my regular 'bike position' on the right side of whatever lane I'm riding in and allow cars to pass me freely.

It really depends on the intersection whether I'll filter to the front or take the lane. How much of a shoulder is there? How much is there on the other side of the intersection? How busy is the cross street - what's the likelihood that many of the cars will be either turning right, or looking to their left as they cross? Do any of the cars have turn signals on, and if so, where are they in line? (I know not to rely on turn signals - one way or the other - but it's one of many clues I use.) How much visibility is there all around? Is #1 in line back from the intersection, in the crosswalk, or somewhere in between? What's the speed limit and the ambient speed? What are the light conditions? What's the mood of traffic I've observed approaching the intersection?

With a longer light you have the option of filtering as far as is possible or safe, all or part of the way to the light, and then taking the lane in front of a stopped car. (Motorcycles do it all the time.)

While you may put yourself in danger of a right hook if you don't wait behind all the cars, you may put yourself in danger of being rear ended if you do. (Even if you wait behind all the cars, some of them will then pass you before the intersection, and any one of them may right hook you.) In daylight, you're almost always more visible from the side than from the rear if you pull into the driver's field of view, turn around and look at them, don't get too close to their car (which is why the width of the shoulder matters).

Negotiating traffic is always a matter of making hundreds of judgments every minute. FWIW I don't think a bicyclist who plans to go straight should EVER get in a right-turn lane for ONE SECOND, even if it means riding to the left of a considerable amount of traffic. Getting into that right hand turning lane is a sure way of getting right-hooked, IMO.

Lisa, you know I am the safest and not particularly aggressive rider around. But, I can envision the first intersection she described because I had a similar situation on my commute to work. No as many turning points, but it kept me from trying the commute for a year because i was scared, even at 6:30 in the morning.
This was an uphill (not really a huge hill) that ended in a T with a busier street. There is a light there. There is a right turn lane for the cars going right, but you cannot make a right on red. I had to turn left here. I would ride up the very right side of the left turn lane, sort of on the line. It was better visibility here and frankly, easier to get started. I have had some really bad experiences trying to start off on little uphills, and having to end up scooting through intersections, pushing with my unclipped foot. So, I was in between the lanes of cars, when usually I always get in the lane and act like a car. If I hadn't done this and ended up behind a car in the left lane, I am almost certain I would not have bee able to start up again. I once fell in the middle of an intersection in a situation like this and I felt safer being between the cars. There was enough room and I know that cars saw me. Maybe because no one was going straight here, it's a different story, but I can see why someone would do what was described.

Take the rightmost lane that serves your destination. Your position within the lane may depend on a number of factors, but should never be between the cars.

Being between the cars makes your friends potentially invisible to the drivers and prone to danger.

But, if you're going straight and there's a right turn lane and the light is green, you're between cars. Maybe you take the lane in the intersection itself, but for the length of the lane approaching it (which could be an entire city block), you're in your normal position.

Likewise if you're turning left from a left turn lane. Even more so if there are two left turning lanes (which would mean that even if you take the lane the entire way, there will STILL be traffic on your left in the other lane).

Yes it's scary having cars passing you on both sides, but I think that there's taking the lane, and then there's just plain holding up traffic, and IMO the latter is just inviting road rage.

Sorry, I misunderstood thinking that "between the cars" was between two cars in adjacent lanes.

Yep... the proper place to be is taking your turn in line behind the cars, just like you were driving one, too. Filtering forward by passing on the right or splitting a narrow lane is a bad idea, since it puts you in a place where drivers aren't likely to be looking out for you, and thus they'll turn into you.

And besides, cutting in line like that is just bad manners.

It sounds like Grits is doing the right thing as far as the intersection goes. To respond to her question about what to do when negotiating those little islands between divided streets/highways, just remember that since we're usually slower than motor vehicles, we want to position ourselves to the right side of the roadway, but not so far to the right that you tempt other drivers to squeeze you to the curb, or pass you unsafely. What works for me - and we have a lot of these kinds of crossings around here - is to claim the lane and take my turn like the cars do.

Tom
Tom

I seem to be the only cyclist I know who waits in line with the cars at stop lights. Everyone else rides up the right side to the front of the line. I used to do that too, until I realized how annoying it was from the perspective of the driver, in addition to being dangerous.

I know most people don't care about annoying drivers, but every little bit adds up and creates the overall hostility that so many of them show to cyclists. If we obey the laws and wait our turn like everyone else, it helps us all.

But like I said, I feel like I'm in the minority. At least in the DC area.

For me, it depends on the situation. If there's a shoulder on a very busy road that continues on the other side of the intersection, I may filter to the front but stay on the shoulder. If there's no shoulder, I absolutely take the lane and wait my turn in line.

I'd say it depends too. The situation described, definitely sounds like the best thing to do is to take your place in traffic and wait. Filtering between lanes is dangerous...

Now then, if traffic is a huge snarly mess and cars aren't going much of anywhere I do feel that if there is space, one of the advantages of being on a bike is that I don't have to sit in it...... I wouldn't filter up between two lanes in this case, but I'd feel free to use the shoulder :rolleyes:

I act just like a car in intersections. I don't want any car making a turn into me because I'm on the shoulder and in their blind spot.
I take the lane and wait in line just like a car. If the light is green and there is no stopping, I still try to take the lane as I pass through the intersection and then I get back to the right afterwards. I don't hold up traffic much at all, and I know car drivers appreciate knowing my intentions and seeing me clearly.

[QUOTE=BleeckerSt_Girl;401954..........and I know car drivers appreciate knowing my intentions and seeing me clearly.[/QUOTE]

Don't take this wrong - I'm a HUGE advocate of taking the lane, not only when passing through an intersection, but at any time the road is too narrow for cars to pass safely or there may be danger from turning cars, but believe me the drivers that understand why you are there much less appreciate anything about you are few and far between....

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Originally Posted by Eden

but believe me the drivers that understand why you are there much less appreciate anything about you are few and far between....

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Well, that's just not my experience when I see them nodding and smiling, pointing and waving, after I signal and position myself. I tend to make very exaggerated signals though, so maybe they feel mysteriously compelled to respond to me when I look at them and broadly signal my traffic intentions.
I live in a rural town area but with lots of county highways with plenty of commuter traffic and trucks of all kinds.
Perhaps drivers are truly more clueless where you ride, or other factors are at work resulting in our different experiences.

When the traffic is really heavy and confusing I hop on the sidewalk and walk my bike across with the pedestrians! I ride a lot in China were most of the busy places have bikelanes with their own traffic signals; I like that.

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Originally Posted by BleeckerSt_Girl

Well, that's just not my experience when I see them nodding and smiling, pointing and waving, after I signal and position myself. I tend to make very exaggerated signals though, so maybe they feel mysteriously compelled to respond to me when I look at them and broadly signal my traffic intentions.
I live in a rural town area but with lots of county highways with plenty of commuter traffic and trucks of all kinds.
Perhaps drivers are truly more clueless where you ride, or other factors are at work resulting in our different experiences.

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I wouldn't say they are more clueless, they are more oblivious perhaps, and Eden probably is doing a lot of riding in the dark! when you can not depend on a smile or a wave to be seen by a half asleep person on his/her way to work.

The way I've learned- and through bike/traffic safety classes, is ride like you are a car- which would put me in behind a car in the lane going forward. You're much more likely to get clipped going between lanes or going forward in a right turn lane. Take the lane when you can.

I can answer regarding the second question.When I'm with my Cat Challenge training group we have to cross a highway like that.
After you've crossed the first set of lanes wait on the right side of the median area, just like a car would.

When it's one lane, I will sometimes scoot to the right and up to the front when the cars to my left are some-turning-left and some-going-straight, and the cars opposite are likewise. This puts me out front and visible instead of behind a car. However, at these intersections there are generally 2-3 cars going my way, so they are all past me by the time I'm through the intersection (unless they're turning left), so merging isn't a problem. There's one intersection where I would end up in the middle of a wide intersection on a yellow if I started from the back, 'cause the cycle is short... and I remember that Virginia chick who got creamed by a police car anticipating a green and accelerating before she had cleared the intersection (and then ticketing her for the hazardous materials -her blood, etc - that had to be cleaned from his car... but they did get rather bad press on that account).
However, for the most part I wait in line and would definitely do so in a group, where quantity makes us more visible. (Trying to remember when last I did that...)